Jungle Out There Banner
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 100

Thread: Lack of quality 7 & kicking game

  1. #51
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bury
    Posts
    905
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Not sure if its our coaching this season but whats happened to Lomax? Over the last few years all his ball touches have been quality and resulted in something for us. This year he’s running around with his head up his arse. Its like watching him early 2012 when Simmons was coaching us!
    I think he has been poor since games recommenced

  2. #52
    In The South Stand Tez the Saint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    3,477
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    I thought 1, 6 and 7 created enough opportunities to win the game. Lomax's first try was really well worked. Regan Grace's try came on the back of an eyes up play by Fages to spot a 3 v 2 on the short side. Fages and Coote combined well to set up the Naquima try on the right.

    Thought they were unlucky a couple of times as well, there was some nice work from Lomax and Coote in the build up to the Grace no try where Austin did brilliantly to cover across. Fages, Lomax and Coote were all involved in the shift where Morgan Knowles nearly scored as well. Again that was great defence from Warrington.

    Given they had Bentley and Knowles in the centres outside them, LMS running unfamiliar lines in the back row on the right and were playing against a pretty good defensive team, I thought they did okay.

    Looking at Warrington's tries, bar the headed one they came from some good work from their outside backs. We had one centre on the field who was playing on the wing. I didn't think their halves were much more creative than ours and they had better options to work with than ours did.
    Steve Prescott MBE (1973-2013)
    V

  3. #53
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,657
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I thought 1, 6 and 7 created enough opportunities to win the game. Lomax's first try was really well worked. Regan Grace's try came on the back of an eyes up play by Fages to spot a 4 v 3 on the short side. Fages and Coote combined well to set up the Naquima try on the right.

    Thought they were unlucky a couple of times as well, there was some nice work from Lomax and Coote in the build up to the Grace no try where Austin did brilliantly to cover across. Fages, Lomax and Coote were all involved in the shift where Morgan Knowles nearly scored as well. Again that was great defence from Warrington.

    Given they had Bentley and Knowles in the centres outside them, LMS running unfamiliar lines in the back row on the right and were playing against a pretty good defensive team, I thought they did okay.
    When the final whistle went at 80 mins my initial neutral response was that Warrington won this game with their defence, you usually get a match winning tackle in a match but I thought Warrington pulled off 3 tackles that looked like certain try's at the time.

  4. #54
    In The South Stand Dux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Liverpool
    Posts
    4,263
    Rep Power
    23

    Default

    I dont necessarily buy into the idea that Woolf plays a more conservative game, but I agree with those who have said that we lack shape. Its probably the most notable difference from Holbrook (and/or Long?) - we tended to have a lots of players in movement off the ball, even early in the set, but weve slipped into a habit of going up in ones.

  5. #55
    In The West Stand Belgian Saint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    7,211
    Rep Power
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Not sure if its our coaching this season but whats happened to Lomax? Over the last few years all his ball touches have been quality and resulted in something for us. This year hes running around with his head up his arse. Its like watching him early 2012 when Simmons was coaching us!
    I think he tried everything he could yesterday. For a while now nearly everything good we have done has come from him, and other teams know that. He is being closed own before he gets the ball.

  6. #56
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bury
    Posts
    905
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I don’t necessarily buy into the idea that Woolf plays a more conservative game, but I agree with those who have said that we lack shape. It’s probably the most notable difference from Holbrook (and/or Long?) - we tended to have a lots of players in movement off the ball, even early in the set, but we’ve slipped into a habit of going up in ones.
    Woolf's game is all about forwards and since LT left we really only have Alex who fits the bill. The likes of Lees and Graham aren't the answer.

  7. #57
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Stood at the back of Stand B in Knowsley Road
    Posts
    1,230
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint from Bury View Post
    Woolf's game is all about forwards and since LT left we really only have Alex who fits the bill. The likes of Lees and Graham aren't the answer.
    Agreed but Walmsley only usually plays 40mins.

    So following on from that there are three options;

    We find another 3 forwards with the same impact as Walmsley .
    Or
    The coach changes the tactics
    Or
    The club changes the coach

    To be fair Holroyd also relied a lot on Walmsley and Thomson, but last year (apart from Wembley) we didn't have a lot of opposition.

    Warrington's pack is looking stronger and Wigan's young forwards will get better

  8. #58
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,839
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    Don't agree with the criticism of Fages and our attack. We have scored the most points for several seasons now. Even 18 points yesterday may have been enough to win.

    The idea that our spine isn't good enough to win trophies is clearly untrue.

    We lost yesterday because of a huge dip between 25 and 40 minutes, and a freak bounce of the ball. That dip was when Walmsley went off.

    Usually, we can ride it out but not yesterday. Graham has been a great signing, but isn't quite as good as Thompson. Our shopping list for 2021 should be two props. Amor has done ok, but to keep him as a regular next year would be to stand still. He and Lees should compete for one spot, especially with Lees' drop in form this year. Not a criticism of Lees, he's had an awful injury and it's so hard to come back from, but a reality.

    If we signed a 7 over two props, I'd be pretty unhappy. It should not be a priority.

    Dodd will get his chance before long. It's up to him to try and force Fages out. The better of the two players will emerge as a long term 7.

    We don't really have any young props ready to step up, so we must look externally and prioritise correctly if we want to stay at the top.

  9. #59
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    337
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think he tried everything he could yesterday. For a while now nearly everything good we have done has come from him, and other teams know that. He is being closed own before he gets the ball.
    The problem is Percy being injured, when he is playing teams are wary of him which takes some pressure off Lomax. Without Percy playing they put all the emphasis on closing Lomax down, effectively shutting down our attack. As for Fages he is doing a good job at 7, his defence is solid, he takes on the line but he doesn't have a good kicking game, neither does Lomax which is a real problem especially in tight games when the defences are on top and you need something different to break them down, cue long and martyn.

  10. #60
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Age
    43
    Posts
    7,556
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I thought 1, 6 and 7 created enough opportunities to win the game.
    Spot on in the analysis as usual, but I will focus on this line. We had chances, and we looked dangerous when we shifted it between hands and got it wide. My problem is that despite looking dangerous when we do it, we don’t do it nearly enough. Of course it becomes predictable if you do it constantly, and defences will work you out, but in the 4 or 5 times we did it in the second half we either scored or came close. We seem to do it more out of desperation than plan, and we leave points on the field IMO.

  11. #61
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,657
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I thought 1, 6 and 7 created enough opportunities to win the game. Lomax's first try was really well worked. Regan Grace's try came on the back of an eyes up play by Fages to spot a 3 v 2 on the short side. Fages and Coote combined well to set up the Naquima try on the right.

    Thought they were unlucky a couple of times as well, there was some nice work from Lomax and Coote in the build up to the Grace no try where Austin did brilliantly to cover across. Fages, Lomax and Coote were all involved in the shift where Morgan Knowles nearly scored as well. Again that was great defence from Warrington.

    Given they had Bentley and Knowles in the centres outside them, LMS running unfamiliar lines in the back row on the right and were playing against a pretty good defensive team, I thought they did okay.

    Looking at Warrington's tries, bar the headed one they came from some good work from their outside backs. We had one centre on the field who was playing on the wing. I didn't think their halves were much more creative than ours and they had better options to work with than ours did.
    I think we have too many fans going into meltdown and not giving enough credit to how the players had to adapt to having a disruptive circumstance thrust upon them. Woolf called it right about that 30min to 40 min first half, Warrington got the advantage and the team responded in the second half.

    That first try of ours was one of the best you will see for creative passing and support play, I don't think any other side in the comp could come up with a try like that.

  12. #62
    In The South Stand Greengrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    In the Queens Arms dreading the King coming home early.
    Posts
    4,283
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Perhaps someone is up to date with the constant rule changes but after Harrison headed the ball forward for George Mann to score wasn't it outlawed and deemed a knock on? Has that been rescinded now so that propelling the ball forward except with the boot is no longer a knock on. Christ they even give knock ons now when the ball obviously went back.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

  13. #63
    Noooobie
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    14
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    Don't agree with the criticism of Fages and our attack. We have scored the most points for several seasons now. Even 18 points yesterday may have been enough to win.

    The idea that our spine isn't good enough to win trophies is clearly untrue.

    We lost yesterday because of a huge dip between 25 and 40 minutes, and a freak bounce of the ball. That dip was when Walmsley went off.

    Usually, we can ride it out but not yesterday. Graham has been a great signing, but isn't quite as good as Thompson. Our shopping list for 2021 should be two props. Amor has done ok, but to keep him as a regular next year would be to stand still. He and Lees should compete for one spot, especially with Lees' drop in form this year. Not a criticism of Lees, he's had an awful injury and it's so hard to come back from, but a reality.

    If we signed a 7 over two props, I'd be pretty unhappy. It should not be a priority.

    Dodd will get his chance before long. It's up to him to try and force Fages out. The better of the two players will emerge as a long term 7.

    We don't really have any young props ready to step up, so we must look externally and prioritise correctly if we want to stay at the top.

  14. #64
    Noooobie
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    14
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    About Lees, I am really not sure what he's good at, and not just since the injury. Is he big and aggressive? Yes. Does he keep running it in? Yes. Does he ever actually break the line? No, as in Not Ever. Does he ever make a telling offload? No. Does he give too many penalties away? Sometimes.
    It strikes me that he's not really developed as hoped for. The saving grace is he has potentially many years ahead of him, but he's been around the first team long enough to make more of a contribution, by now, to our attacking play. Regarding his earlier injury lay-off being a reason for his very ordinary form, he's been back from that injury quite a while now. With salary cap to consider, Saints need a bit more than this from their replacement prop. If he can't find some form in the next couple of months, we might need to look around for someone to replace him in our 17.

  15. #65
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Scouse Don's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blatherings on 13 Pro-Am podcast.Back home in St.Helens and in the South stand for service
    Posts
    8,300
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Don't accept the comments about the pack. If we hadn't lost Knowles and Bentley from the middle to cover the centre spots we would probably have won. We lost power in the middle which gave wire the rest and they made the best of it.

    Only lost by a couple of points with a dodgy try so no big issue but the lack of a quality 7 with a great kicking game is a real problem in the tight big games. We only had one real test last year at Wembley.

  16. #66
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Stood at the back of Stand B in Knowsley Road
    Posts
    1,230
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrass View Post
    Perhaps someone is up to date with the constant rule changes but after Harrison headed the ball forward for George Mann to score wasn't it outlawed and deemed a knock on? Has that been rescinded now so that propelling the ball forward except with the boot is no longer a knock on. Christ they even give knock ons now when the ball obviously went back.
    After Harrison/Mann try they made it a knock-on if its done deliberately but apparently not if its accidental.

    It surprised me that it was allowed, I'm sure I've seen similar incidents before where if the ball has gone forward off the head, shoulder, or torso it has been treated as a forward pass but I can't quote the occasions.

  17. #67
    In The West Stand Belgian Saint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    7,211
    Rep Power
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    The problem is Percy being injured, when he is playing teams are wary of him which takes some pressure off Lomax. Without Percy playing they put all the emphasis on closing Lomax down, effectively shutting down our attack. As for Fages he is doing a good job at 7, his defence is solid, he takes on the line but he doesn't have a good kicking game, neither does Lomax which is a real problem especially in tight games when the defences are on top and you need something different to break them down, cue long and martyn.
    No arguments with that.

  18. #68
    Got A Replica Shirt
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    62
    Rep Power
    4

    Default

    I like Theo, for me he's the best all round SH in Superleague. The problem is that unless you find an Aussie with "indiscretions" that necessitate a relocation to the UK, better isn't available.

  19. #69
    In The West Stand The Wee Waa Womble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Harrogate
    Age
    30
    Posts
    5,209
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by J116 View Post
    I like Theo, for me he's the best all round SH in Superleague. The problem is that unless you find an Aussie with "indiscretions" that necessitate a relocation to the UK, better isn't available.
    While the roles of scrum half and stand off have somewhat blurred together if youre looking for a partner to complement Lomax there are plenty of better options than Fages just in super league.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

  20. #70
    Got A Replica Shirt
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    62
    Rep Power
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    While the roles of scrum half and stand off have somewhat blurred together if you’re looking for a partner to complement Lomax there are plenty of better options than Fages just in super league.
    Fair point, but for me the way forward is to gradually give Dodd game time and hope that he fits the bill and both he and Theo fight for the role. I genuinely don't see a better SH, Hastings maybe but I'm not totally convinced by the love in for him and he certainly wouldn't be a quantum leap forward. My other concern is that expectations surrounding Dodd be tempered by reality.

  21. #71
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Newton-le-Willows; East Side of the Fence.
    Age
    48
    Posts
    12,226
    Rep Power
    44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I thought 1, 6 and 7 created enough opportunities to win the game. Lomax's first try was really well worked. Regan Grace's try came on the back of an eyes up play by Fages to spot a 3 v 2 on the short side. Fages and Coote combined well to set up the Naquima try on the right.

    Thought they were unlucky a couple of times as well, there was some nice work from Lomax and Coote in the build up to the Grace no try where Austin did brilliantly to cover across. Fages, Lomax and Coote were all involved in the shift where Morgan Knowles nearly scored as well. Again that was great defence from Warrington.

    Given they had Bentley and Knowles in the centres outside them, LMS running unfamiliar lines in the back row on the right and were playing against a pretty good defensive team, I thought they did okay.

    Looking at Warrington's tries, bar the headed one they came from some good work from their outside backs. We had one centre on the field who was playing on the wing. I didn't think their halves were much more creative than ours and they had better options to work with than ours did.
    1,6 and 7 will have a hand in almost every try. Nobody can dispute that. No matter how good or bad they are. However, it's the tries that we are not scoring because they don't have a hand in that is the problem.

    The reliance on the team this year has been the pack and that has been born out in the fact that Walmsley and Thompson have scored 13 tries between them this season whilst Grace and Makinson have scored 10. Those sort of stats should never be happening.

    We are, of course, a fantastic flat track bully side and will score for fun in games when the opposition give up a tad, but our problem even through the Holbrook era has been our inability to win big games that we should be winning on paper. One Grand Final win against Salford (in which we scored three tries) shows that we lack the ability to finish off the job, and I've always had the same fear, and that is that the half backs do not know how to open up tight defences.

    We can all say we've created enough chances if we create five chances and the opposition has scored four tries, but we have to be realistic enough to know that all chances do not get converted. Great halves create enough chances for a reasonable percentage to be both scored and missed. Lomax and Fages simply don't have the skill set when camped on the line. They don't have enough tricks in their locker.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Borussia Dortmund, Preston North End, St. Helens Town, Steps 3 to 6 Non-League Football

  22. #72
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    365
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    1,6 and 7 will have a hand in almost every try. Nobody can dispute that. No matter how good or bad they are. However, it's the tries that we are not scoring because they don't have a hand in that is the problem.

    The reliance on the team this year has been the pack and that has been born out in the fact that Walmsley and Thompson have scored 13 tries between them this season whilst Grace and Makinson have scored 10. Those sort of stats should never be happening.

    We are, of course, a fantastic flat track bully side and will score for fun in games when the opposition give up a tad, but our problem even through the Holbrook era has been our inability to win big games that we should be winning on paper. One Grand Final win against Salford (in which we scored three tries) shows that we lack the ability to finish off the job, and I've always had the same fear, and that is that the half backs do not know how to open up tight defences.

    We can all say we've created enough chances if we create five chances and the opposition has scored four tries, but we have to be realistic enough to know that all chances do not get converted. Great halves create enough chances for a reasonable percentage to be both scored and missed. Lomax and Fages simply don't have the skill set when camped on the line. They don't have enough tricks in their locker.
    Guile, nouse, raw ability that's what we're missing, too much rugby by numbers and percentages, plus all our moves are old well used moves, nothing new for a while now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #73
    Noooobie
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    18
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil B View Post
    About Lees, I am really not sure what he's good at, and not just since the injury. Is he big and aggressive? Yes. Does he keep running it in? Yes. Does he ever actually break the line? No, as in Not Ever. Does he ever make a telling offload? No. Does he give too many penalties away? Sometimes.
    It strikes me that he's not really developed as hoped for. The saving grace is he has potentially many years ahead of him, but he's been around the first team long enough to make more of a contribution, by now, to our attacking play. Regarding his earlier injury lay-off being a reason for his very ordinary form, he's been back from that injury quite a while now. With salary cap to consider, Saints need a bit more than this from their replacement prop. If he can't find some form in the next couple of months, we might need to look around for someone to replace him in our 17.
    Agree with all this except I dont even classify him as big for a prop.Obviously had an horrific injury to overcome but even before this it was a bit of hype.Trying to hard to be the enforcer and not succeeding. He is certainly not a starting prop for next season as alluded.we need 2 new props.Credit Amor at moment not reached heights he was once capable of but he has dug in and is a decent player to have in a salary capped environment.
    On the backs time to give Dodd a go.He has all the variety of play we need here.

  24. #74
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    9,849
    Rep Power
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Semolina Pilchard View Post
    Agree with all this except I don’t even classify him as big for a prop.Obviously had an horrific injury to overcome but even before this it was a bit of hype.Trying to hard to be the enforcer and not succeeding. He is certainly not a starting prop for next season as alluded.we need 2 new props.Credit Amor at moment not reached heights he was once capable of but he has dug in and is a decent player to have in a salary capped environment.
    On the backs time to give Dodd a go.He has all the variety of play we need here.
    Lees runs like a prop and has the frame but he’s just too lean imo. Ive met him in person and he’s got a big frame. Tall and broad shouldered. If he can pack on some quality size without losing that speed over 10 yards he’d be a beast.
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

  25. #75
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    901
    Rep Power
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Semolina Pilchard View Post
    Agree with all this except I don’t even classify him as big for a prop.Obviously had an horrific injury to overcome but even before this it was a bit of hype.Trying to hard to be the enforcer and not succeeding. He is certainly not a starting prop for next season as alluded.we need 2 new props.Credit Amor at moment not reached heights he was once capable of but he has dug in and is a decent player to have in a salary capped environment.
    On the backs time to give Dodd a go.He has all the variety of play we need here.
    I do agree that since the injury he has been on a downward curve but it was more than just hype with Lee's. He had been the young player of the year & received a lot of praise from Anderson after playing well for the knight's.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •