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Thread: 19 man squad v Warrington

  1. #76
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    Didnt manage to watch all the match.

    But the bit I did see, we was 6-0 up and playing like we was 12-0 down.

    Their heads seem to fall off in big games. This isnt a Woolfe problem, this stems back a long way.

    We seem to only know one way of playing and in knock out games , that is the wrong way to play.


    At least it saves us the embarrassment of being shitmixed in the Semi's and we can concentrate on getting back to the Grand final.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    Didnt manage to watch all the match.

    But the bit I did see, we was 6-0 up and playing like we was 12-0 down.

    Their heads seem to fall off in big games. This isnt a Woolfe problem, this stems back a long way.

    We seem to only know one way of playing and in knock out games , that is the wrong way to play.


    At least it saves us the embarrassment of being shitmixed in the Semi's and we can concentrate on getting back to the Grand final.
    I kind of agree and disagree. I think that feeling that you need to do something different in the big games is actually the problem. For me what the big games require more than anything else is patience. What breaks a team down after 50 minutes in a normal game might take 70 minutes. A play that normally gains 10m might only gain 6m. That’s normal for a big game, and not a reason to change everything up.

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    I thought Roby and Graham looked their age today against a top team

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I kind of agree and disagree. I think that feeling that you need to do something different in the big games is actually the problem. For me what the big games require more than anything else is patience. What breaks a team down after 50 minutes in a normal game might take 70 minutes. A play that normally gains 10m might only gain 6m. That’s normal for a big game, and not a reason to change everything up.
    But we dont seem to recognise that what breaks teams down in 50 takes 70 ect. We expect the same formula to work each time when it doesnt. We need to just tweak it, not wholesale changes.
    But we dont seem to tweak. Just panic.

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    Wire utilised percy going off. Bentley was lost covering when he went off. If percy finished the game, we'd have gone on to win. Coote should've fielded the high kick too. The tide turned after that error.

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    This isn’t just a knee jerk reaction to today but I’m getting slightly concerned about our lack of potency in the opposition 20. It seems that when we can’t just roll teams over we don’t really have a Plan B. In particular I’m looking at Fages at the minute and thinking could/should we be getting more from a 7? Might sound harsh but I’m starting to really question his creative input in this side.

    I thought the refereeing was abysmal, it has to be said. The late tackle call at the end was laughable but all through the game he seemed to be policing the ruck completely different for both sides. They had multiple set restarts before we had 1 and I didn’t see much different in what we were doing compared to them. We were poor and I’m not making excuses but Kendall really was terrible.

    I just hope there’s no lasting affect from today in terms of our confidence going forward. We need to come out fighting at Wigan in 10 days time and show them and everyone else we are still the team to beat. I’m clutching at straws here but in terms of our GF hopes the fact Wigan and Warrington will most likely have another 2 cup games to play may work in our favour. But that really is me trying hard to find the silver lining from today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    But we dont seem to recognise that what breaks teams down in 50 takes 70 ect. We expect the same formula to work each time when it doesnt. We need to just tweak it, not wholesale changes.
    But we dont seem to tweak. Just panic.
    Yeah, in that case we are completely in agreement. I don’t think I read your post properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    I thought the refereeing was abysmal, it has to be said. The late tackle call at the end was laughable but all through the game he seemed to be policing the ruck completely different for both sides. They had multiple set restarts before we had 1 and I didn’t see much different in what we were doing compared to them. We were poor and I’m not making excuses but Kendall really was terrible.
    I don’t like to focus on the ref but I agree completely. Warrington were so offside at times (especially at key moments) that it was almost comical. And while they seemed to be getting restarts at the drop of a hat we couldn’t buy one, even when we were winning the ruck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I thought Roby and Graham looked their age today against a top team
    Jammer didn't do anything today unfortunately. It looked very hard work for him today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    This isn’t just a knee jerk reaction to today but I’m getting slightly concerned about our lack of potency in the opposition 20. It seems that when we can’t just roll teams over we don’t really have a Plan B. In particular I’m looking at Fages at the minute and thinking could/should we be getting more from a 7? Might sound harsh but I’m starting to really question his creative input in this side.

    I thought the refereeing was abysmal, it has to be said. The late tackle call at the end was laughable but all through the game he seemed to be policing the ruck completely different for both sides. They had multiple set restarts before we had 1 and I didn’t see much different in what we were doing compared to them. We were poor and I’m not making excuses but Kendall really was terrible.

    I just hope there’s no lasting affect from today in terms of our confidence going forward. We need to come out fighting at Wigan in 10 days time and show them and everyone else we are still the team to beat. I’m clutching at straws here but in terms of our GF hopes the fact Wigan and Warrington will most likely have another 2 cup games to play may work in our favour. But that really is me trying hard to find the silver lining from today.
    I agree with the analysis of the problem but putting it all on Fages is a bit too easy.

    Other than on the back of fast PTBs Saints attack has been stodgy and predictable for a while.
    Slow the PTBs has saints have 3/4 predictable sets plays that easy to see and neutralise.

    Lomax is the "dominant half" and coote is the general , so they need to take some responsibility
    but seem immune from criticism.

    Dropping Fages doesn't solve the ageing pack increasingly reliant on Walmsley.
    Of the younger forwards, Ashworth has piled on the pounds while shedding enthusiasm
    and Lees has just lost his mojo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I don’t like to focus on the ref but I agree completely. Warrington were so offside at times (especially at key moments) that it was almost comical. And while they seemed to be getting restarts at the drop of a hat we couldn’t buy one, even when we were winning the ruck.
    Yeah that was my main gripe from today. Think it was around the hour mark before we got our first set re-start. Warrington were very good defensively but they weren’t that squeaky clean for 60 mins surely?

    On the game itself I thought apart from the 5 minute lapse before half time we played very well. We completely dominated the 2nd half but just didn’t have that slice of luck that you need to win a big game. I’d like to know the exact ruling for the Charnley try? I thought if it came off an opponent and went forward and was touched by another player it was accidental offside?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Mander View Post
    I agree with the analysis of the problem but putting it all on Fages is a bit too easy.

    Other than on the back of fast PTBs Saints attack has been stodgy and predictable for a while.
    Slow the PTBs has saints have 3/4 predictable sets plays that easy to see and neutralise.

    Lomax is the "dominant half" and coote is the general , so they need to take some responsibility
    but seem immune from criticism.

    Dropping Fages doesn't solve the ageing pack increasingly reliant on Walmsley.
    Of the younger forwards, Ashworth has piled on the pounds while shedding enthusiasm
    and Lees has just lost his mojo.
    Agree about Lees, he’s not the same player at all next season. We need at least 1 but probably 2 new props coming in for next season and on the creativity issue I imagine Dodd’s debut will be very soon.
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    Duplicate post, sorry.
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    I have big concerns at the moment about how we break teams down that have a fairly resistant defence. We struggled to do it against a dogged Hull KR side, and again today, there were times we were banging on the door inside the 10/20 zone, but we just look to cart it to a forward to see what they can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parky151277 View Post
    Yeah that was my main gripe from today. Think it was around the hour mark before we got our first set re-start. Warrington were very good defensively but they weren’t that squeaky clean for 60 mins surely?

    On the game itself I thought apart from the 5 minute lapse before half time we played very well. We completely dominated the 2nd half but just didn’t have that slice of luck that you need to win a big game. I’d like to know the exact ruling for the Charnley try? I thought if it came off an opponent and went forward and was touched by another player it was accidental offside?
    It’s only offside if Charnley was in front of the ball when it came off Gelling’s head, which I don’t think he was. It was just bad luck for us IMO. The refereeing of the ruck and 10m hurt us more.

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    Didn't think we got the rub of the green when it came to the restarts, however Warrington tackled and defended very well, also Warrington's centre had that height advantage when Percy went off. Worry for me is our front row especially from the bench big drop off in go forward today.

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    Default 19 man squad v Warrington

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Didn't think we got the rub of the green when it came to the restarts, however Warrington tackled and defended very well, also Warrington's centre had that height advantage when Percy went off. Worry for me is our front row especially from the bench big drop off in go forward today.
    I don’t know for sure but I’ll bet our front row made plenty of ground today. I don’t think that was our problem - it was more what we did, or didn’t do, off the back of that.

    Don’t forget, also, that the two most important players for us earlier in the set are Makinson and Percival. So much of the good stuff the front row does builds on their work in tackles 1 & 2.

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    Biggest problem is our reliance on big Al. Close him down and we struggle

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    I thought we were outcoached today. Warrington beat us at Wembley with a very simple formula. Complete the sets, employ a good kicking game and don't give away penalties. They did this again today and we never really looked like coming back to win the game after they had gone in eight points in front.

    Kristian Woolf has got to have a look at himself. Our game plan has become very one dimensional. Without Alex Walmsley firing on all cylinders, we have a problem. There has become no Plan B. It's all about charging it up the middle and giving the inside ball. Against Catalans, Leeds and Huddersfield, it worked because our pack was thoroughly dominant and the defence allowed us to offload. Hull KR, Castleford and Warrington sussed this, stopped us offloading and virtually negated any attacking threat.

    The three quarters are getting very little ball and you can look at two things for this, the tactics and the half backs. I'm made no secret in saying over the last three years that Lomax and Fages were not a partnership and that Theo is very lucky to be part of a team like this, because he an average to decent half who tries hard and no more. You need a leader in the halves and not two followers, because a class half can change a game and do something out of nothing to engineer the odd win. Theo never does this and Lomax doesn't do it that often. We are rudderless on the last tackle plays and the lack of kicking game means that we play too much of the big games in areas we don't want to be in.

    There's a lot of mileage still left in this squad, despite the age of the forwards, because those forwards are still the best in the country on their day, and there's a lot of potential coming through, but we have to start to use the backs more. The likes of Makinson, Naiqama and Grace have barely had a decent pass all season, but when they do get one, they prove their worth.

    I've huge doubts about the coach. I don't think his style is getting the most out of his players, but the absolute necessity for 2021 is a half back. If we don't find one, we will see all the silverware being shared amongst our neighbours, as it will be this year. The three knockout defeats to Warrington in the last three years have exposed this issue more than anything. We lack the defence opener that can win games when the normal plan is failing. That's why Long, Martyn and Goulding will be remembered as greats and why Lomax and Fages will not.
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    fully agree with DD .One dimensional tactics from Wolfe and he was outsmarted by Price. Our kicking game (Fages and Coote ) was very poor and we do need someone better than Fages at 7

    Additional points -what does anyone see in Lees? Never beats the first tackle and gives away stupid penalties. I also don't see anything that Graham brings .He hits the first tackle and just goes to ground. I hope he doesn't want to play another season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parky151277 View Post
    Yeah that was my main gripe from today. Think it was around the hour mark before we got our first set re-start. Warrington were very good defensively but they weren’t that squeaky clean for 60 mins surely?

    On the game itself I thought apart from the 5 minute lapse before half time we played very well. We completely dominated the 2nd half but just didn’t have that slice of luck that you need to win a big game. I’d like to know the exact ruling for the Charnley try? I thought if it came off an opponent and went forward and was touched by another player it was accidental offside?


    I think we timed it at 55 minutes when we got ouir first set restart! Ref was appalling. In a tight game poor officiating makes all the diference, We were knackered at the end of the first half because of the number of set restarts and penalties we'd conceeded. WI couldn't see much difference in our technique to Wire's, yet Kendall continually punished us. If you can't get the ball, you can't score tries. We weren't brilliant but thanks to Gellings head and a ridiculously one eyed officiating display we're out of the cup, again!

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    Tough loss given the way the winning try was scored, but I don’t think we deserved to win it. I think our composure in these games is poor, and we rarely throw it wide in promising positions even though when we do we look really dangerous. Too much reliance on our forwards when we get close to their line, and today it wasn’t enough.

    I don’t think the loss has anything to do with any big game issues, we simply lost to another good team in a close game, but we lost the game without me thinking we left it all out there on the field in terms of going for it. With a couple to play we were still driving it down the middle in our own half, and there is a regimented style about our play that I’d hoped we’d seen the back off. As mentioned by Dave above, I continue to have the fear that this coach is more bothered about us playing the game to his preferred style rather than playing the game to suit the qualities of our players. The fella is a talented coach, I’ve never doubted that, but that’s never been my issue. I just think we may have picked the wrong fella at this moment in time, when someone who wished to build on what Holbrook did would have been a better choice.

    We’ve still got a league title to play for, but this game has left me frustrated because we didn’t make Wire sweat for their lives late on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I don’t know for sure but I’ll bet our front row made plenty of ground today. I don’t think that was our problem - it was more what we did, or didn’t do, off the back of that.

    Don’t forget, also, that the two most important players for us earlier in the set are Makinson and Percival. So much of the good stuff the front row does builds on their work in tackles 1 & 2.
    I reckon our front row were well down on metres, Graham and Lees struggled to get over the advantage line, the only forward making ground with Walmsley was Tai. Thought we played to our weakness today too much down the middle.

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    A mix of anger and frustration .

    That was an abysmal officiating performance . Yes, we were average ( again) but at 6-0 up we were holding up , restart after restart after restart after restart made things go from average to very average to worse . What can you expect ?

    To top it off. Another calamitous decision costing us the game . How the frigg can officials miss that the ball projected forward 5 m off his fu.&£ing head?

    I’m not even arsed commenting on what went well and what didn’t , what players did what not . It was another fu#%ing refereeing showdown . Absolutely sick to death of being on the receiving end of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint from Bury View Post
    fully agree with DD .One dimensional tactics from Wolfe and he was outsmarted by Price. Our kicking game (Fages and Coote ) was very poor and we do need someone better than Fages at 7

    Additional points -what does anyone see in Lees? Never beats the first tackle and gives away stupid penalties. I also don't see anything that Graham brings .He hits the first tackle and just goes to ground. I hope he doesn't want to play another season.
    Lost a game have we?
    I shouldn’t bite but I can’t resist. Lee’s is 22 years old playing at prop forward, he’s recently comeback from what could have been a life changing injury.
    James Graham has already explained he will retire at the end of the season.
    Fages is a good rugby league player and compliments Lomax, Lomax has been off of late. These things happen, we have lost a game in a crazy season against a very good side. Simples.

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