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Thread: 19 man squad v Warrington

  1. #126
    In The South Stand Paul Newlove's Avatar
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    There are lots of things we can not agree with or be completely happy with now I'm calm about it all, Percy stays on we'd have won..

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    I dont know personally. They seem obsessed with his aggression and people even mentioning us having to be worried about him being poached by an NRL club. Doesnt make any line breaks, tackle busts, no decent metres pre or post contact or any offloads. Hes been absolute dogshite this season and honestly the decision to pick him ahead of Peyroux on the bench today was awful. Hes still young for a prop and I see a solid foundation there for a decent super league player but he needs to bulk up and start breaking/bending the line as hes just a passenger at the moment.
    He is far too light for a prop forward at 94kg he must be the lightest in Superleague, we are saying he is still young but watching the 19 year old goon player in Havard yesterday he is averaging 120 metres and 40 tackles a game. For Lees his big hits this season are few and far between if he had his head transplanted onto Ashworth's body he would be a class player, but at the momentum the opposition have the pressure taken off them when Lees comes off the bench.

  3. #128
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Scouse Don's Avatar
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    Watched it again now and calmed down a bit. I think we lost it in a couple of area's.

    1. They upped their game when Big Al and Jammer went off just after Percy went off and we lost a couple of tries.
    2. In reorganising we lost Knowles and Bentley out of the pack which eased the pressure on the wire pack.

    When the game became very tight we did ok but we lack (and this has been raised on the other thread) a freal 7. Much as I love Theo we won't win big tight games without a quality 7 with a good kicking game.

    It is time to blood Dodd and let him develop.

    Put a Sezer in our team and we would be nigh on unbeatable in big games until then we will struggle in the high pressure big games.
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  4. #129
    In The South Stand Angry Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Unfortunately we have a one dimensional coach who has no plan B, I'm not sure there's a credible plan A. He only understands one way to play and it doesn't suit the players or the fan base. He shouldn't be at the club, it was a poor recruitment decision.

    I'm sure that the idiocy of Makinson came from his frustration building of being given no ball over a period of games. Speculation of course but you can see it building across the squad. KW seems to have no ability to play as a Saint and he never will. The players know it and we know it, nothing will change. Beaten today by tries from wingers and centres whether the rules were broken or players shouldn't be playing. We hardly put a ball out wide. There's no intent to widen the game out because the coach doesn't understand it so he seems to want no part of it. We've seen the same old moves week in week out, down the middle, more wrestling creeping in , no kicking game, no game management, nothing. Things go wrong in games, it's his job to manage and mitigate the effects.

    Yes it's easy to whinge when we've lost but he's losing much more than a single game today, he's losing direction, he'll lose the players and also the fans. Some think he's a very talented coach. I'm certainly not one of them. This will be a calamity on the scale of the KC tenure and there won't necessarily be another JH to set it right.


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    I said to my brother at half time, you know in the second nothing will change and his reply was "what can we do?" Well, I understand that to a point because as you say, we have a very simplistic plan A and when that doesn't work Woolf just sits there with that dopey look on his face and you can see the frustration in the players.

    I agree with every point you've made so no point me repeating them. Some players had off days yesterday, it happens but as you say, it needs to be managed and mitigated. I ended up having a bit of a heated conversation with my old man after the game as he sat there for the full match complaining like he expects us to win every at a canter, we were both ed off and I'll call him later, my point is though, the coach appeared to do nothing to change things about.

    I'm actually starting to think he got lucky post-lockdown, we pasted a few half cooked teams but as soon as we lost a few players and faced a bit of adversity we go back to the same poor tactics we started the season with.

    That said, I thought Kendall was appalling in watching the offside, there was a set in the second half were we started on our 20 and didn't manage to get to halfway by the 5th because every single tackle their line was a mile offside, however, if teams are going to do that, you need to come up with something that's going to put doubt in their minds. Over to you Kristian.....

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I thought Roby and Graham looked their age today against a top team
    Graham`s body is shot, he is turning before impact to protect his sternum and shoulder, he must be in agony after his first drive, he was injured making a tackle in the second half. stayed down, then peeled himself up trying to defy the pain, he has been an exceptional player but chronic injury has beaten him.
    Roby has been unusually quiet since the restart, yesterday has was good, but time is rapidly catching up with him, he was still playing at the top of his game last year but there is a noticeable drop off since the restart, still I thought he was good yesterday.
    To us lot we expect him to be his usual very good/brilliant, when he is just good we think he is past it, such has been his consistency.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintH517 View Post
    I criticised 3 players and the coach. I also said wed be better off with Ian Watson as head coach which I think plenty of people would agree with.
    I wouldn't be upset to see Watson come in.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post

    That said, I thought Kendall was appalling in watching the offside, there was a set in the second half were we started on our 20 and didn't manage to get to halfway by the 5th because every single tackle their line was a mile offside, however, if teams are going to do that, you need to come up with something that's going to put doubt in their minds. Over to you Kristian.....

    Well said, and I agree.

    For a few years now our gameplan has been to bend the defensive line by winning the collision through our big guys hitting the line with good leg speed, and look to exploit a back-peddling defence on the back of this (often after 2 or 3 big drives)

    If teams are a but passive in defence, this works well. Most teams will try to mitigate this by moving up quickly to stop our big guys building up a head of steam but, when a full 10m is actually enforced properly, opposition defences can't keep this up for 80 mins and we pull away later in games.

    What Wire do against us is push against the 10m from the off. They'll stand a yard or so short and most refs don't bother penalising them. They then have a couple of players race forward (starting a second or so before the PTB is made) towards the likely recipients of the pass, seeking to make a disruptive first contact before the ball carrier can get going, with the 2nd man in often going round the legs, followed by the 3rd tackler to wrap and complete the tackle.

    Holbrook never devised tactics to counter this, and it seems Woolf is similarly stumped.

    I would have thought playing a deeper attack would be fruitful; probably not initially as you sacrifice yards where the carrier receives the ball, but it will tire the opposition out both by making them have to run more to reach the carrier, and by having to tackle carriers who will have had a second or two to build up speed.

    Additionally, we need to hugely vary our attack to create doubt in opposition minds. At present, for most plays it's too easy to read who will get the ball. There's also too much emphasis on one-out carries. This needs to change.

    We played some games after lockdown where we did play more expansively and it was a joy. Against Huddersfield, we even did more offloads than we have done in a long while. But each of these games were against fairly patched-up lineups.

    IMO, Woolf really has his work cut out. Or we won't defend our title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Graham`s body is shot, he is turning before impact to protect his sternum and shoulder, he must be in agony after his first drive, he was injured making a tackle in the second half. stayed down, then peeled himself up trying to defy the pain, he has been an exceptional player but chronic injury has beaten him.
    Roby has been unusually quiet since the restart, yesterday has was good, but time is rapidly catching up with him, he was still playing at the top of his game last year but there is a noticeable drop off since the restart, still I thought he was good yesterday.
    To us lot we expect him to be his usual very good/brilliant, when he is just good we think he is past it, such has been his consistency.
    Certainly agree about Graham . Everyone got carried away by the emotion of him returning but if truth be tole he hasn't done much in any of the games since he came back

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Well said, and I agree.

    For a few years now our gameplan has been to bend the defensive line by winning the collision through our big guys hitting the line with good leg speed, and look to exploit a back-peddling defence on the back of this (often after 2 or 3 big drives)

    If teams are a but passive in defence, this works well. Most teams will try to mitigate this by moving up quickly to stop our big guys building up a head of steam but, when a full 10m is actually enforced properly, opposition defences can't keep this up for 80 mins and we pull away later in games.

    What Wire do against us is push against the 10m from the off. They'll stand a yard or so short and most refs don't bother penalising them. They then have a couple of players race forward (starting a second or so before the PTB is made) towards the likely recipients of the pass, seeking to make a disruptive first contact before the ball carrier can get going, with the 2nd man in often going round the legs, followed by the 3rd tackler to wrap and complete the tackle.

    Holbrook never devised tactics to counter this, and it seems Woolf is similarly stumped.

    I would have thought playing a deeper attack would be fruitful; probably not initially as you sacrifice yards where the carrier receives the ball, but it will tire the opposition out both by making them have to run more to reach the carrier, and by having to tackle carriers who will have had a second or two to build up speed.

    Additionally, we need to hugely vary our attack to create doubt in opposition minds. At present, for most plays it's too easy to read who will get the ball. There's also too much emphasis on one-out carries. This needs to change.

    We played some games after lockdown where we did play more expansively and it was a joy. Against Huddersfield, we even did more offloads than we have done in a long while. But each of these games were against fairly patched-up lineups.

    IMO, Woolf really has his work cut out. Or we won't defend our title.
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    In The South Stand saintgeorge's Avatar
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    I seem to remember us losing to Warrington twice in big games when Holbrook was in charge so all these concerns about Woolf seem a bit hollow really and some people are clutching at straws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I seem to remember us losing to Warrington twice in big games when Holbrook was in charge so all these concerns about Woolf seem a bit hollow really and some people are clutching at straws.
    Clutching at straws? Don't be daft, people are naturally ed off and are going to look for reasons why we lost. As it goes, I believe we have the beating of them, a number of things went against us yesterday but that doesn't mean there's also underlying issues. It's a message board ffs, what do you expect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I seem to remember us losing to Warrington twice in big games when Holbrook was in charge so all these concerns about Woolf seem a bit hollow really and some people are clutching at straws.
    Clutching at straws? Don't be daft, people are naturally ••••ed off and are going to look for reasons why we lost. As it goes, I believe we have the beating of them, a number of things went against us yesterday but that doesn't mean there's also underlying issues. It's a message board ffs, what do you expect?

    *isn't underlying issues.
    Last edited by Angry Dave; 20th September 2020 at 12:34. Reason: Chris Hill's stupid face

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I seem to remember us losing to Warrington twice in big games when Holbrook was in charge so all these concerns about Woolf seem a bit hollow really and some people are clutching at straws.
    Holbrook managed to get that side at its peak as well. As soon as he came into Saints he transformed us into the best side in the league, it isn't too unrealisitic to suggest we could have been 3 times GF winners if we had seen off Cas in that Semi and Warrington the year after and obviously we won last year. I did wonder at the start of this year after our poor start and signing no one wether that side last year had hit its peak and was on the decline. However injuries set in, the WCC took a lot out of us and after the restart I thought we were still the best side in the league.

    I think we are miles off a change of coach and I didn't see yesterdays game so can't comment on that but if the KR game was anything to go in close games we panic. We lose ball, we end up with Walmsley etc on the opposition line throwing daft passes and we don't finish our sets well wherever we are on the field. We still play some good stuff but in some close games we just force it too much and have no respect for possession. We are our own worse enemies sometimes.

    Finally I think Woolf if is an easy target for not being Holbrook. Holbrook was really, really easy to like as a bloke. He bought into the club, bought into the town and bought into the fans. He is doing the same at the Titans. Woolf hasn't really done that (possibly due to covid19 he hasn't had the chance) but he hasn't got the same energy or charisma as Holbrook and comes across quite dour and stale. Personality of the coach doesn't mean much to me but I can certainly see why some fans wouldn't take to Woolf, especially after following Holbrook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    Holbrook managed to get that side at its peak as well. As soon as he came into Saints he transformed us into the best side in the league, it isn't too unrealisitic to suggest we could have been 3 times GF winners if we had seen off Cas in that Semi and Warrington the year after and obviously we won last year. I did wonder at the start of this year after our poor start and signing no one wether that side last year had hit its peak and was on the decline. However injuries set in, the WCC took a lot out of us and after the restart I thought we were still the best side in the league.

    I think we are miles off a change of coach and I didn't see yesterdays game so can't comment on that but if the KR game was anything to go in close games we panic. We lose ball, we end up with Walmsley etc on the opposition line throwing daft passes and we don't finish our sets well wherever we are on the field. We still play some good stuff but in some close games we just force it too much and have no respect for possession. We are our own worse enemies sometimes.

    Finally I think Woolf if is an easy target for not being Holbrook. Holbrook was really, really easy to like as a bloke. He bought into the club, bought into the town and bought into the fans. He is doing the same at the Titans. Woolf hasn't really done that (possibly due to covid19 he hasn't had the chance) but he hasn't got the same energy or charisma as Holbrook and comes across quite dour and stale. Personality of the coach doesn't mean much to me but I can certainly see why some fans wouldn't take to Woolf, especially after following Holbrook.

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    I think the personality of a coach is fundamental in forming direction. Of course it has to be underpinned by technical and analytical skills. I think JH was at one extreme & successful with it. As has been said he bought into 'The Saints' in every way, highly respected by players and fans alike. Nobody expects a clone, but we've gone too far the other way in one giant step. If someone would have come in and been a bit less of this & a bit less of the other in terms of JH style then that would be natural. Maybe down the line a KW type coach would work to a degree.

    Trouble is we've moved too far. I don't know him and he may be a great guy, but his presence that he exudes in both his demeanour and the game plans he wants executing are dour, unimaginative, run of the mill. He simply isn't a coach who shows any understanding outside of what appears to be a narrow skills set. The players are being restricted by his instructions, they clearly don't like it, we don't like it, nobody likes it save for opposition coaches.

    They can read us like a book, none of the players are on par with last year, for a variety if reasons maybe, but he's in charge & captaining the ship. Maybe he's been unlucky but a coach showing energy, enthusiasm & dynamism would make his own luck. Look at the bounce we got when Jammer landed albeit short lived. The team came out and delivered, now we're back to mediocre maybe reflected by a mediocre season as it is.

    I hope 'The Club' can see it and are already making plans for next year about a change of direction.


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    Having watched it again from behind the settee could I please send out a SOS for Luke Thompson to get on the first plane back!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Hate to say I told you so, but that outcome was very predictable. .

    Errr you actually said they were going to roll all over us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    1. King
    2. Charnley
    3. Austin
    4. 24-8 to Warrington
    5. 3 minutes
    6. 1

    We just seem to be headed rapidly out of form as they head into it AND get all their players back fresh as a daisy. It's going to be a tough game, a win is definitely possible, but I think a repeat of the league game is on the cards.

    Joking aside, I didnt think we were as poor as some people think.

    Losing 20-18 is not the death-knell for our season with some wacky referring decisions and in reality one missed conversion away from golden point.

    Take out the crazy deflection off the head, or maybe not losing two players, or even the last minute or so of the first half where we decided to throw the ball into Wires hands when we should have played the set out, kicked into the corner and gone into the sheds breathing down their necks......


    Ultimately thats where we lost the game in my opinion. If Matty Ashton didnt give them that lead i believe wed win easily.

    Wed pegged them back to 2 points difference and should have shown better composure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I seem to remember us losing to Warrington twice in big games when Holbrook was in charge so all these concerns about Woolf seem a bit hollow really and some people are clutching at straws.
    Our record in big knock out games under JH was poor as well, I agree. But I was concerned about that at the time, and Holbrook doesn’t get a pass for it despite being much loved and changing the culture of the side in his time here. I’m judging Woolf in exactly the same way to be honest.

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    Warrington deserved to win the game so I have no complaints. They played at there best and had some luck also. Saints where poor and the injuries we got during the game really affected us. If thats the best Warrington can do then on another day we would be ok.

    What Im most concerned about is when Walmsley and Jammer go off we really suffer and against the top teams you cant get away with it. I think one of the BBC com team mentioned it also. Maybe we should have Walmsley as a sub and bring him on after 25 mins. Lees doesnt look the same player as he was and Amor is poor. We are light on options and I think we should be looking at bringing a prop in ASAP. Maybe Ashworth should be given a chance

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    A really frustrating day yesterday. I posted on another thread that the lack of impact from the bench harmed us. Lees and Amor had significantly less impact than Philbin and Murdoch Masila.

    Similarly, the backline was a problem. We really missed Makinson's kick returns so in turn our yardage was worse and we kicked from worse positions. We struggled for a while when Percival went off. Walmsley was rotated at the same time and Wire took advantage. We desperately needed half time and it didn't come quickly enough.

    I was quite pleased with our second half. With a backline of Naiqama, Knowles, Bentley and Geace we did ok. We obviously tried due to the lack of rotation. Despite all that we were denied by an outrageous fluke.

    In big games against Warrington everything seems to go against us. Refereeing calls, injuries, Gelling's head now added to the list! A disappointing day but no reason or excuse not to go on and win the Grand Final again.

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    We should have got Kalum Watkins even on a short term contract.

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    Best team won. Our discipline in the first half in particular was really poor, giving three penalties and two set restarts (I think) away in the first 15-20 minutes is just asking for trouble against a team like Warrington, particularly when they gave just one penalty away and no restarts the entire first half. Yet despite that we still looked comfortable defensively until Percy went off and we completely lost the plot down that side. We also struggled quite a bit with Wire's offloading game and energy we lost defending that. We seemed to be very poor at wrapping the ball up.

    Fages is getting a lot of stick on the other thread but frankly he's playing for two in attack at the minute with Lomax well off the pace going forward (great defensively but not really the primary job of a half back). For Coote it was a bit of a rocks and diamonds sort of game, a misjudged catch, awful conversion and a couple of poor kicks, but then a few nice touches and excellent defensive reads. Roby threw a couple of uncharacteristically poor passes as well which led to dropped ball.

    I think it just comes down to poor execution on the day and considering the injuries and the fluke try we did well to be within two at the end. The biggest mistake was playing Percy. That's not just hindsight either, it's massively risky with hamstring injuries to come straight into a game like that after a layoff. If he was fit last week then he should have played to prove his fitness, even if it was only 60 minutes. If he wasn't fit last week then he shouldn't have come straight into a pressure match against a top team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    Best team won. Our discipline in the first half in particular was really poor, giving three penalties and two set restarts (I think) away in the first 15-20 minutes is just asking for trouble against a team like Warrington, particularly when they gave just one penalty away and no restarts the entire first half. Yet despite that we still looked comfortable defensively until Percy went off and we completely lost the plot down that side. We also struggled quite a bit with Wire's offloading game and energy we lost defending that. We seemed to be very poor at wrapping the ball up.

    Fages is getting a lot of stick on the other thread but frankly he's playing for two in attack at the minute with Lomax well off the pace going forward (great defensively but not really the primary job of a half back). For Coote it was a bit of a rocks and diamonds sort of game, a misjudged catch, awful conversion and a couple of poor kicks, but then a few nice touches and excellent defensive reads. Roby threw a couple of uncharacteristically poor passes as well which led to dropped ball.

    I think it just comes down to poor execution on the day and considering the injuries and the fluke try we did well to be within two at the end. The biggest mistake was playing Percy. That's not just hindsight either, it's massively risky with hamstring injuries to come straight into a game like that after a layoff. If he was fit last week then he should have played to prove his fitness, even if it was only 60 minutes. If he wasn't fit last week then he shouldn't have come straight into a pressure match against a top team.
    You are quite correct Percy should have played last week to prove his fitness even for part of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    Best team won. Our discipline in the first half in particular was really poor, giving three penalties and two set restarts (I think) away in the first 15-20 minutes is just asking for trouble against a team like Warrington, particularly when they gave just one penalty away and no restarts the entire first half. Yet despite that we still looked comfortable defensively until Percy went off and we completely lost the plot down that side. We also struggled quite a bit with Wire's offloading game and energy we lost defending that. We seemed to be very poor at wrapping the ball up.

    Fages is getting a lot of stick on the other thread but frankly he's playing for two in attack at the minute with Lomax well off the pace going forward (great defensively but not really the primary job of a half back). For Coote it was a bit of a rocks and diamonds sort of game, a misjudged catch, awful conversion and a couple of poor kicks, but then a few nice touches and excellent defensive reads. Roby threw a couple of uncharacteristically poor passes as well which led to dropped ball.

    I think it just comes down to poor execution on the day and considering the injuries and the fluke try we did well to be within two at the end. The biggest mistake was playing Percy. That's not just hindsight either, it's massively risky with hamstring injuries to come straight into a game like that after a layoff. If he was fit last week then he should have played to prove his fitness, even if it was only 60 minutes. If he wasn't fit last week then he shouldn't have come straight into a pressure match against a top team.
    Easing Percival in following a lengthy hamstring absence was mentioned in another thread early last week I seem to remember and if not eased in then appropriate cover put in place in case he didn't make the full 80. It wasn't a secret he'd be rusty but again it appears no contingency was in place without severely restricting other areas. This is what frustrates me with the current set-up it's all here and now and no consideration to 'what if'.

    There should have been a number of plans put in place for as and when certain players are lost, I'd suggest losing Percival in his first game back at least through fatigue should have been high on that list.

    It's totally amateurish in my opinion blaming it on bad luck, it's bad planning not bad luck.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Easing Percival in following a lengthy hamstring absence was mentioned in another thread early last week I seem to remember and if not eased in then appropriate cover put in place in case he didn't make the full 80. It wasn't a secret he'd be rusty but again it appears no contingency was in place without severely restricting other areas. This is what frustrates me with the current set-up it's all here and now and no consideration to 'what if'.

    There should have been a number of plans put in place for as and when certain players are lost, I'd suggest losing Percival in his first game back at least through fatigue should have been high on that list.

    It's totally amateurish in my opinion blaming it on bad luck, it's bad planning not bad luck.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Luck plays a small part but as you say if there's no planning in the knowledge there may be a problem then it just comes down to arrogance/stupidity/naivety.

  25. #150
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    Agree with Angry Dave. If ‘Luck’ exists, it would be where preparation meets ability.

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