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Thread: Fans back into the stadiums

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    When talking about the City of London, many think Oxford Street etc. We both know Gray77 that the City is where the real wealth is spent. I get to Price Towers Waterhouse four times a year, which is adjacent to Liverpool Street Station. The offices are currently run by just the IT people and security with in that associated complex alone thousands working from home. For those who don't know the area at lunch time every pub, bistro was packed at lunch time and takeouts as well. Ditto after work. The word now is ghost town. Even the London economy is dropping to its knees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    I've seen a lot of talk that the reason we are in this mess is because people are not complying with rules.

    How much truth is actually in this? The majority to me seem to be complying to me. The numbers not wearing masks in shops seem very small for example.

    Look around Europe, cases started to increase roughly at the same time. Is it really the case that compliance slackened and therefore cases rose at nearly the exact same time?

    Or within countries, is it really the case that London ignored the rules in March so had a huge spike? Is it really the case that the north of England has en masse ignored restrictions now meanwhile the south west and east of England have complied? I don't think it is.

    The uncomfortable truth may be that we have very limited means of controlling the virus and our major flaw is thinking that we can. Humans have achieved so much and advanced so far. We sometimes find it difficult to accept that things are beyond our control, even temporarily.

    One day we may have means of controlling this, and we should strive for that. But for now, I don't think we do. And finger pointing and looking for a source of blame that isn't really there doesn't help, in my view.
    A bit of food for thought there. Where I live you never see anyone without a mask. It has been that way for months now, but we are in the same mess as the UK, and for most of the year has been significantly worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    I've seen a lot of talk that the reason we are in this mess is because people are not complying with rules.

    How much truth is actually in this? The majority to me seem to be complying to me. The numbers not wearing masks in shops seem very small for example.

    Look around Europe, cases started to increase roughly at the same time. Is it really the case that compliance slackened and therefore cases rose at nearly the exact same time?

    Or within countries, is it really the case that London ignored the rules in March so had a huge spike? Is it really the case that the north of England has en masse ignored restrictions now meanwhile the south west and east of England have complied? I don't think it is.

    The uncomfortable truth may be that we have very limited means of controlling the virus and our major flaw is thinking that we can. Humans have achieved so much and advanced so far. We sometimes find it difficult to accept that things are beyond our control, even temporarily.

    One day we may have means of controlling this, and we should strive for that. But for now, I don't think we do. And finger pointing and looking for a source of blame that isn't really there doesn't help, in my view.
    The two major factors are more testing and the return of schools and universities, the latter being significant as the second wave mostly 16-25 year olds came in over that period. I would guess its similar with Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    A bit of food for thought there. Where I live you never see anyone without a mask. It has been that way for months now, but we are in the same mess as the UK, and for most of the year has been significantly worse.
    Masks eh? Who would have thought. They have the same effect as stopping a bee flying through a chain link fence but what do I know.


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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    The two major factors are more testing and the return of schools and universities, the latter being significant as the second wave mostly 16-25 year olds came in over that period. I would guess its similar with Europe.
    Exactly, the more testing we do the more false positives they find which drives more testing. I understand that the end to end cost of a test is £90. Wish I had shares in the supplier. Deaths peaked in March/April then reverted to the same as historic trends including the present time. The latest 'spike' or more like a bump is driven from September in education when they encouraged students to take tests which is now dwindling. I live near a uni it has its own testing station as do most of them. Gullible & lonely kids away from home an easy target which skews the national numbers. The first phase had deaths as they didn't know how to treat people with a coronavirus, very few if any flu victims are put on ventilators as we're Covid patients, they panicked in effect. They're panicking now yet there are no excessive deaths. 99% of deaths are co-morbid in people of average age 82. Keep watching the BBC News Headlines if you prefer or read your FB pages if you support what's going on, I do neither.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Exactly, the more testing we do the more false positives they find which drives more testing. I understand that the end to end cost of a test is £90. Wish I had shares in the supplier. Deaths peaked in March/April then reverted to the same as historic trends including the present time. The latest 'spike' or more like a bump is driven from September in education when they encouraged students to take tests which is now dwindling. I live near a uni it has its own testing station as do most of them. Gullible & lonely kids away from home an easy target which skews the national numbers. The first phase had deaths as they didn't know how to treat people with a coronavirus, very few if any flu victims are put on ventilators as we're Covid patients, they panicked in effect. They're panicking now yet there are no excessive deaths. 99% of deaths are co-morbid in people of average age 82. Keep watching the BBC News Headlines if you prefer or read your FB pages if you support what's going on, I do neither.


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    I should imagine if they had the testing regime set up in March/April it was more likely we would have see 50 000 infections per day at least. The only stats that are a major concern is the Covid Hospitalisations and Deaths, if those are rising steeply then restrictions or compliance is not working. Track and trace is still abysmal across communities compared to Germany and our government is failing big time at the moment and it's purely symbolic propaganda by our "Honourable Hancock."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    I've seen a lot of talk that the reason we are in this mess is because people are not complying with rules.

    How much truth is actually in this? The majority to me seem to be complying to me. The numbers not wearing masks in shops seem very small for example.

    Look around Europe, cases started to increase roughly at the same time. Is it really the case that compliance slackened and therefore cases rose at nearly the exact same time?

    Or within countries, is it really the case that London ignored the rules in March so had a huge spike? Is it really the case that the north of England has en masse ignored restrictions now meanwhile the south west and east of England have complied? I don't think it is.

    The uncomfortable truth may be that we have very limited means of controlling the virus and our major flaw is thinking that we can. Humans have achieved so much and advanced so far. We sometimes find it difficult to accept that things are beyond our control, even temporarily.

    One day we may have means of controlling this, and we should strive for that. But for now, I don't think we do. And finger pointing and looking for a source of blame that isn't really there doesn't help, in my view.


    The virus is communicable, being spread by the inhalation or ingestion of virus 'droplets'. It can only spread by infected people passing on virus 'droplets' and others inhaling/ingesting the 'droplets'. Furthermore, extensive studies have shown that, in the vast majority of cases, the impact of the virus on a person is worse the greater the initial 'virus load' has been.

    We saw during the initial phase that a combination of restrictions on mixing and measures relating to personal hygiene and wearing masks to reduce both exhalation (by anyone infected) and inhilation (of virus 'droplets') could hugely reduce infection rates.

    That's not to say that wearing (non-surgical standard) masks and regularly santitising hands totally stops the spread; it doesn't. But it reduces both the likelihood of spreading and the 'viral load' passed on.

    As for blame, it's not a case of finger pointing. It's frustration that a minority of people refuse (for annoying, petty and selfish reasons*) to comply with really simple and unobtrusive measures that are hardly a hardship.

    Yet as you and others have said, people not wearing masks round shops aren't the main source of this latest phase. If you watch this animation showing the spread of the virus from the beginning to mid-October, you see that although across the vast majority of the country infection rates dropped to minimal during the summer, certain areas that have a high proportion of a certain community (that tend to live in multi-generational households and take their religious arsewittery far too seriously) didn't see the same level of reductions, and the subsequent resurgence in infections seems to spread outwards from these areas. When universities went back, this was like pouring petrol on the flames (the vast majority of students, especially freshers, now living packed into 'halls' type accomodation, rather than 4/5/6 at a time in individual rundown student houses)

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1316276649114116097


    So not so much blaming people, but learning from what's happened to try to plug the 'leaks' where infections are much more likely, to keep infection rates low enough to control.



    * I know someone who refuses to wear to wear a mask "cos av gorrassmer". Asthma that doesn't stop them smoking 20 a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    When talking about the City of London, many think Oxford Street etc. We both know Gray77 that the City is where the real wealth is spent. I get to Price Towers Waterhouse four times a year, which is adjacent to Liverpool Street Station. The offices are currently run by just the IT people and security with in that associated complex alone thousands working from home. For those who don't know the area at lunch time every pub, bistro was packed at lunch time and takeouts as well. Ditto after work. The word now is ghost town. Even the London economy is dropping to its knees.
    This is going to have huge implications for commercial property prices. Many companies with traditionally large office presences are realising that working from home isn't a charter for employees to just doss about, so are eying huge savings on accommodation costs by downsizing office space. The problems with bricks & mortar retail run a lot deeper, although major 'destination' city centres like Liverpool & Manchester have been a bit insulated due to both worker lunchtime trade and shoppers from outside the city, but both of these are now reduced. And, of course, the sandwich, bar and other hospitality businesses. A substantial proportion of commercial property, especially in London, is owned by overseas interests, a lot of that 'dodgy money', so I have no sympathy for them, nor for the multi-millionaires/billionaires with big property portfolios. The problem is that pension funds also invest in commercial property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I should imagine if they had the testing regime set up in March/April it was more likely we would have see 50 000 infections per day at least. The only stats that are a major concern is the Covid Hospitalisations and Deaths, if those are rising steeply then restrictions or compliance is not working. Track and trace is still abysmal across communities compared to Germany and our government is failing big time at the moment and it's purely symbolic propaganda by our "Honourable Hancock."
    Yes again on the money, deaths & hospitalisation. I personally know 3 people who were sent postal tests, haven't opened them got a letter saying they are positive. Meaning they lost work & their families were obliged to test when they knew it was corrupted, there is no appeal.
    The NHS announcement today has again changed the goalposts. If you test positive on say a Tuesday then tested again on Friday they now count you twice in the stats. If you then test again on the Monday they count you again. These repeat tests are being done as part of receiving treatment, I can personally confirm this is happening. £90 a throw.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I know someone who refuses to wear to wear a mask "cos av gorrassmer". Asthma that doesn't stop them smoking 20 a day.
    Is it Shaun Wane?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    Is it Shaun Wane?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Interesting stuff. London was always going to get it big at the start, because before lockdown and home working there were hundreds of thousands of people travelling in and out every day. Before Covid the centre was basically the country within a few square miles. Thousands travelled down there every day from all parts of the country for various work events, and hundreds of thousands commute from the other Home Counties. I’d take trains from Macclesfield at 6:30 in the morning and the things were heaving, and then look at the state of Euston and Kings Cross at 6pm every night with people leaving to go back to all corners of the country. It was a melting pot for any outbreak in the country, and people from all areas congregated in a smallish area in the centre of London. I’m amazed it wasn’t worse to be honest.

    The thing about London is once you stopped all these people commuting in and out, and once you took away the smaller but not insignificant amount who travelled in and out for night-time entertainment, the problem decreased massively. If you live in London and don’t have to go to the office you do tend to stick to your patch quite a lot. The closures of offices took away so much activity from the centre that the chances of it spreading decreased rapidly. A lot of the areas around London are full of people who work in London, and so once the option to head into work was removed you ended up with a really big population of people not really moving around that much, so I’ve not been surprised that the South East has been lower than the North West in the last month or so.

    There is obviously complacency in the way people have behaved, and I’ve been guilty of that in thought but not actions. I’ve lowered my fear levels whilst still doing all the stuff I need to do to look after myself, but I’ve developed a more blasé attitude of late which in hindsight was naive. But as I say, I’ve not acted upon my thoughts by doing stupid stuff or putting myself or anyone else in danger, but others will have acted upon their complacency in active ways. I think this is a factor, and I think the nature of smaller cities like Liverpool and Manchester which have populations that depend more on their city centres for entertainment and commerce has meant those cities being affected more. People that live around London don’t rely on the city centre in anything like the way people do in places like Liverpool and Manchester, because the suburbs and the surrounding towns are packed with options. So people stick to their areas and leave central London pretty deserted by comparison. In Northern cities people have flocked to city centres because it’s more of a thing that people do in smaller cities. We’ve seen that this difference in culture mixed with a certain complacency has left the Northern cities in a bad way as a result. If we remove the options for people to come into the centres I think we’ll see a drop off quite quickly, but even Tier 3 regulations don’t really prevent people drinking, eating and shopping in large numbers if they really want to.
    A great analysis and one that I think answers a lot of questions that conspiracy theorists especially have asked.

    I haven't been to Manchester since March but I have been to Liverpool and can only speak from personal experience, as I need to pop into the office every couple of weeks.

    The business district is very quiet, and where our office is on Princes Parade, deathly so. Many establishments in the Dale Street area will not reopen. If you walk from Lime Street down that route then it is as London's business district. A ghost town.

    The difference I feel is that London people do not shop in the centre. There are a myriad of large 'town centres' within the city and people will stick to their local one. Walking down Church Street in Liverpool, you'd think it was a normal day. I've only been on weekdays, but God knows what it is like on a Saturday. I suspect, much busier.

    One thing I did notice until this last visit, when compliance was much higher, was that there was almost a communal refusal to wear masks in stores. I shouldn't admit this, but I was shopping in Primark about a month ago, and it dawned on me that no more than about 25% of people were wearing masks. What's more, there was a queue to get in, as it was so busy, and nobody on the door was asking anybody to put them on. I also saw no hand sanitisers on display. Contrast this to a number of places I have been in the Midlands of late, where everyone was complying, and all of a sudden, the spike up here doesn't seem so surprising.

    The number of people who refuse to wear masks up here for reasons of utter selfishness is truly staggering. Whether they help or not may not be scientifically proven, but they sure as hell don't harm the issue. What's more, the notion that anyone can't wear a mask is completely false. Even the British Lung Federation suggest that cloth masks don't make a scrap of difference to your ability to breathe. If my mum, who gets out of breath going to the toliet, can wear them in shops, so can anybody.
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    Just listened to Clare Balding on the Today programme about the RL World Cup next year. Cynicism aside, I thought she came across superbly - really articulate, well-informed and passionate about the sport and the tournament and an excellent ambassador for Rugby League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Just listened to Clare Balding on the Today programme about the RL World Cup next year. Cynicism aside, I thought she came across superbly - really articulate, well-informed and passionate about the sport and the tournament and an excellent ambassador for Rugby League.
    On that note, has anyone bothered ordering tickets for this yet?
    I keep getting emails about the various ticket options/ballots/get yours quickly before it's too late!, etc.
    Normally I'd be up for this, and to be fair to the organisers, they are trying to promote it...But I just can't be bothered just now.
    All quite depressing really!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    On that note, has anyone bothered ordering tickets for this yet?
    I keep getting emails about the various ticket options/ballots/get yours quickly before it's too late!, etc.
    Normally I'd be up for this, and to be fair to the organisers, they are trying to promote it...But I just can't be bothered just now.
    All quite depressing really!
    Same, I’ve bought so much stuff that hasn’t happened and been fobbed off with vouchers for future events, future flights, etc that I’m just not booking stuff anymore. I still think it’s 50/50 whether the RLWC actually happens next year, and listening to Balding this morning on R4 talking about making sure they take all the right safety provisions for something happening in a year made me think that if we’re still thinking about hand sanitisers and safety measures by then we’re in real trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    On that note, has anyone bothered ordering tickets for this yet?
    I keep getting emails about the various ticket options/ballots/get yours quickly before it's too late!, etc.
    Normally I'd be up for this, and to be fair to the organisers, they are trying to promote it...But I just can't be bothered just now.
    All quite depressing really!
    I think a lot of people will be waiting to see how the current situation pans out before buying tickets. As per the article on BBC sport today the RLWC ceo isn’t even sure if it goes ahead and, if so, in what capacity for fans or whether it might be postponed.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Just listened to Clare Balding on the Today programme about the RL World Cup next year. Cynicism aside, I thought she came across superbly - really articulate, well-informed and passionate about the sport and the tournament and an excellent ambassador for Rugby League.
    I didn't hear that programme, but I think she has always come across well when speaking about RL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    On that note, has anyone bothered ordering tickets for this yet?
    I keep getting emails about the various ticket options/ballots/get yours quickly before it's too late!, etc.
    Normally I'd be up for this, and to be fair to the organisers, they are trying to promote it...But I just can't be bothered just now.
    All quite depressing really!
    I keep geting emails too but like you waiting to see what happens

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    I registered for world cup tickets and even booked a campsite in the North East (motorhome site) for the opener.
    Despite the fuss about cheap tickets the actual reality is unless you want to sit in the sky with a telescope the tickets are quite pricey.
    My own seat at TWS for I think Australia v Italy I'm sure was something like £70. Your average RL fan isn't going to pay that.
    On that basis I filled the survey in asking why I had reissued but not bought tickets that their pricing was over the top and wished them well and told them I'll see them on Groupon the week before when they get desperate!

    Ps - ref the pandemic discussion above the biggest revelation for me is that DD shops at Primark!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I registered for world cup tickets and even booked a campsite in the North East (motorhome site) for the opener.
    Despite the fuss about cheap tickets the actual reality is unless you want to sit in the sky with a telescope the tickets are quite pricey.
    My own seat at TWS for I think Australia v Italy I'm sure was something like £70. Your average RL fan isn't going to pay that.
    On that basis I filled the survey in asking why I had reissued but not bought tickets that their pricing was over the top and wished them well and told them I'll see them on Groupon the week before when they get desperate!

    Ps - ref the pandemic discussion above the biggest revelation for me is that DD shops at Primark!!
    Walked past Primark in Meadowhall a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself if you shop in there with that amount of undesirables you're kind of asking for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Walked past Primark in Meadowhall a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself if you shop in there with that amount of undesirables you're kind of asking for it.
    Primark or the whole of Meadowhall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Primark or the whole of Meadowhall?
    Aye, fair point I felt like I was royalty in there for eating sushi and knowing how to say espresso.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Aye, fair point I felt like I was royalty in there for eating sushi and knowing how to say espresso.
    I must admit. I was calling it 'expresso' for a while!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Aye, fair point I felt like I was royalty in there for eating sushi and knowing how to say espresso.
    Haha - it’s widely known by Sheffield residents as Meadowhell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Aye, fair point I felt like I was royalty in there for eating sushi and knowing how to say espresso.
    I believe you can get Expresso with BigMacs now......


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