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Thread: Fans back into the stadiums

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    That's a fair shout, but if the government decreed that 20% capacities were permitted which clubs would risk the backlash by refusing to open up their ground?
    It's a tough one to call.
    Risk upsetting, and possibly losing loyal fans by not opening if they could, versus potentially losing even more money (and spreading the virus?) by opening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Wakefield
    Castleford
    Hull KR

    Although those grounds are a health hazard at the best of times.
    Huddersfield would be happy. 20% capacity is about twice what they use on a game day anyway.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Wakefield
    Castleford
    Hull KR

    Although those grounds are a health hazard at the best of times.
    I did say earlier that I meant 'modern grounds' so it's a limited field I appreciate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    That's how I see it. In reality i'm expecting an 11 team competition starting in March or April with no loop fixtures (20 games). We've got the World Cup later in the year and Wane wants a couple of friendlies/warm up games.
    This assumes that the Aussies play ball. V'landys is already talking about having the SOO after the regular season next year.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    This assumes that the Aussies play ball.
    I know everything is already in place, stadiums have been booked, marketing has been done, money has been spent ... but, given that we already have 30,000 plus crowds watching games in Brisbane and Sydney, and given that the majority of players are already based down there, including half the England team ... would it not be a consideration to hold the World Cup in Australia?

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    I do not think we will have a world cup in England in 2021. I agree with Gray77 I would move it now down under to ensure as far as reasonably practicable that it takes place. I don't know what happens moving forward. I can go to the Albert Hall but not Langtree Park? How does that work. By now I would have had my season ticket renewal through and would be ready to walk down with 320.00 in cash. How do clubs ask us to pay again? Its a mess and the RFL can burn money and are capable of using that 14 million pounds to prop themselves up.

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    The fate of an immense range of businesses & sports globally, not just the RL World Cup, hinges on the successful development & deployment of a vaccine.

    I think i we don't have this by very early 2021, we're just going to have to accept Covid as an embedded hazard of life, whilst lifting the restrictions so that entire economies aren't utterly destroyed.

    Either way, the 2021 WC is so far in the future that I can't see crowds not being allowed into stadiums by then.
    Last edited by Webbo Again; 20th October 2020 at 10:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I know everything is already in place, stadiums have been booked, marketing has been done, money has been spent ... but, given that we already have 30,000 plus crowds watching games in Brisbane and Sydney, and given that the majority of players are already based down there, including half the England team ... would it not be a consideration to hold the World Cup in Australia?
    That's a good point and certainly worth considering.
    We need a vaccine, herd immunity does not work. My brother in-law has got Covid along with ten others who attended a function at a "local" venue. One of my friends daughter has contacted Covid from the school where she works.

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    The herd immunity is for me worthy of consideration. The difference between catching COVID and dying through it is part of a balancing act. Sadly we may lose people with age against them and underlying health conditions. Whilst no sane person wishes this it must be balanced against young people being able to get back to normality, and those who wish to watch sporting events live. The industry in which I am involved revolves around key workers and they have been at the coal face every day. Fortunately out of a 1500 front line cohort we have lost no colleagues to COVID, despite localised outbreaks. We have other colleagues working from home, many but not all are climbing the walls, some of these feel 40K plus and WFH is the new norm. We will see when and if redundancies occur and RL clubs close it will be like Henrich domino after domino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The herd immunity is for me worthy of consideration. The difference between catching COVID and dying through it is part of a balancing act. Sadly we may lose people with age against them and underlying health conditions. Whilst no sane person wishes this it must be balanced against young people being able to get back to normality, and those who wish to watch sporting events live. The industry in which I am involved revolves around key workers and they have been at the coal face every day. Fortunately out of a 1500 front line cohort we have lost no colleagues to COVID, despite localised outbreaks. We have other colleagues working from home, many but not all are climbing the walls, some of these feel 40K plus and WFH is the new norm. We will see when and if redundancies occur and RL clubs close it will be like Henrich domino after domino.

    I lean towards this, too. We cannot continue with the economic devastation that's being wrought (and the impact will run-though long after this has died down, with businesses and organisations taking on debt just to stay afloat).

    We need the vaccine ASAP and distributed free. Far cheaper for the government to pay for this than propping up the economy. Start with NHS/Care Sector staff, then over 65's, then other at-risk groups, then work down in age.

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    They’ll have 30,000 at the Gabba on Saturday for the AFL Grand Final and I think 40,000 at ANZ on Sunday for the NRL Grand Final. This is a great achievement by the relevant authorities down there, and whilst things aren’t great in and around Melbourne and whilst there are travel bans into the country, you could technically host a World Cup there now in NSW and Queensland if you needed to, whilst there’s no guarantee we’ll even have crowds in stadiums by the end of the football season or by the start of the 2021 RL season. The damage of cancelling the Ashes this year was bad enough but to then have to cancel a World Cup that could be held in the biggest RL nation would be terrible for the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The herd immunity is for me worthy of consideration. The difference between catching COVID and dying through it is part of a balancing act. Sadly we may lose people with age against them and underlying health conditions. Whilst no sane person wishes this it must be balanced against young people being able to get back to normality, and those who wish to watch sporting events live. The industry in which I am involved revolves around key workers and they have been at the coal face every day. Fortunately out of a 1500 front line cohort we have lost no colleagues to COVID, despite localised outbreaks. We have other colleagues working from home, many but not all are climbing the walls, some of these feel 40K plus and WFH is the new norm. We will see when and if redundancies occur and RL clubs close it will be like Henrich domino after domino.
    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I lean towards this, too. We cannot continue with the economic devastation that's being wrought (and the impact will run-though long after this has died down, with businesses and organisations taking on debt just to stay afloat).

    We need the vaccine ASAP and distributed free. Far cheaper for the government to pay for this than propping up the economy. Start with NHS/Care Sector staff, then over 65's, then other at-risk groups, then work down in age.
    I agree with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The herd immunity is for me worthy of consideration. The difference between catching COVID and dying through it is part of a balancing act. Sadly we may lose people with age against them and underlying health conditions. Whilst no sane person wishes this it must be balanced against young people being able to get back to normality, and those who wish to watch sporting events live. The industry in which I am involved revolves around key workers and they have been at the coal face every day. Fortunately out of a 1500 front line cohort we have lost no colleagues to COVID, despite localised outbreaks. We have other colleagues working from home, many but not all are climbing the walls, some of these feel 40K plus and WFH is the new norm. We will see when and if redundancies occur and RL clubs close it will be like Henrich domino after domino.
    I'm sorry but I find that a really selfish attitude.

    I've just had a long conversation with a family member who is front line NHS and she was telling me how bad things are locally, trust me they are a lot worse than many know. I mentioned the ten cases at a local venue and she said "That's only the ones YOU know about"

    I love my RL as much as anyone, not being able to see and have a drink with "the lads" at the games has been really hard for me, but I find the suggestion to let young people just go ahead is ludicrous.
    Do you really think that virus take off again since schools, colleges and universities re-opened is a coincidence?

    I understand the financial implications I worked for a large multi-national conglomerate with over 100,00 employees and know that a few of my ex colleagues have sadly been made redundant, luckily the UK based engineers appear to be safe for now.
    If it were me I'd impose a two week lockdown from next week when the schools close and monitor it from that point.

    Just my opinion of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The herd immunity is for me worthy of consideration. The difference between catching COVID and dying through it is part of a balancing act. Sadly we may lose people with age against them and underlying health conditions. Whilst no sane person wishes this it must be balanced against young people being able to get back to normality, and those who wish to watch sporting events live. The industry in which I am involved revolves around key workers and they have been at the coal face every day. Fortunately out of a 1500 front line cohort we have lost no colleagues to COVID, despite localised outbreaks. We have other colleagues working from home, many but not all are climbing the walls, some of these feel 40K plus and WFH is the new norm. We will see when and if redundancies occur and RL clubs close it will be like Henrich domino after domino.
    I'm not sure if a herd community would work in the UK, I guess you would need a really healthy national community to give it a chance. The UK was badged up as the sick man of Europe 50 years ago in financial terms, that's now changed to the sick man of Europe health wise with all the obese, drugs, poverty etc.

    Its tough on the young people who are mostly immune but you could say it also makes them less compliant and this second wave could be the the result of that. We had all the raves that were going on all over the country, the universities opened up and the R infection rate went up. Manchester go to tier 3 on Friday, so we assume all the young ones will be giving it the last hoorah on Wednesday and Thursday night in Piccadilly Gardens.

    We've just got to hang on in their until a vaccine arrives for the ones in need then the young can get back all their freedoms............can't see that happening until around March next year though. Another possibility is that the virus has mutated into a weaker strain but more infectious like the common cold.
    Last edited by STIDDY; 20th October 2020 at 20:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The herd immunity is for me worthy of consideration. The difference between catching COVID and dying through it is part of a balancing act. Sadly we may lose people with age against them and underlying health conditions. Whilst no sane person wishes this it must be balanced against young people being able to get back to normality, and those who wish to watch sporting events live. The industry in which I am involved revolves around key workers and they have been at the coal face every day. Fortunately out of a 1500 front line cohort we have lost no colleagues to COVID, despite localised outbreaks. We have other colleagues working from home, many but not all are climbing the walls, some of these feel 40K plus and WFH is the new norm. We will see when and if redundancies occur and RL clubs close it will be like Henrich domino after domino.
    The way things are going it looks like we may be going to herd immunity by default, total lockdown just delayed the second wave, tier closures again will just delay further waves. I am halfway through self isolation after testing positive, despite taking all the usual precautions, so many people are catching it particularly in the North West I reckon starting with students unwittingly getting it back into general circulation and infecting us old codgers. Good job I've not renewed a Season Ticket, I might not be around to use it !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    I'm sorry but I find that a really selfish attitude.

    I've just had a long conversation with a family member who is front line NHS and she was telling me how bad things are locally, trust me they are a lot worse than many know. I mentioned the ten cases at a local venue and she said "That's only the ones YOU know about"

    I love my RL as much as anyone, not being able to see and have a drink with "the lads" at the games has been really hard for me, but I find the suggestion to let young people just go ahead is ludicrous.
    Do you really think that virus take off again since schools, colleges and universities re-opened is a coincidence?

    I understand the financial implications I worked for a large multi-national conglomerate with over 100,00 employees and know that a few of my ex colleagues have sadly been made redundant, luckily the UK based engineers appear to be safe for now.
    If it were me I'd impose a two week lockdown from next week when the schools close and monitor it from that point.

    Just my opinion of course.
    Apparently the current levels of seasonal flu is significantly below the 5 year average for October, significantly. They couldn't be calling it Covid instead could they? We've a PCT Test pandemic not a Covid pandemic.


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    Realise I am very fortunate to be here in NZ but I am not one who supports herd immunity. One aspect that is coming out in the science is the long term respiratory problems for those in mid 30's. Essentially saying shortening life expectancy for many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Apparently the current levels of seasonal flu is significantly below the 5 year average for October, significantly. They couldn't be calling it Covid instead could they? We've a PCT Test pandemic not a Covid pandemic.


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    It will be given people are not mixing in the usual places (home working, etc) plus wearing masks will stop transmission. Pretty obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    It will be given people are not mixing in the usual places (home working, etc) plus wearing masks will stop transmission. Pretty obvious.
    But apparently the population is going out enough to test positive for Covid yet suppress seasonal flu? So what part of our behaviour is suppressing flu yet allowing a very similar coronavirus to spike? Probably be a good idea if we could mirror it then problem solved. The real answer is we're using the PCR test to find Covid in spite of the inventor (who died in October 2019) of the test saying it shouldn't be used to perform live test as it doesn't work yet it's the primary tool for T&T that itself doesn't work & cost £12bn, how much is it costing us to buy PCR from big pharma? Work that one out. Truth is it's impossible to differentiate between the virus of flu and Covid & the common cold. We live with recurring flu yet allow a similar virus to decimate our economy where the average age of a Covid mortality is 82 and will have co-morbidity. Also remember that the main reason we're wearing masks is to remind us all with a flag on our face that we're to be managed. Originally clinicians stated masks cause more issues than they solve with respiratory issues and bacteria, then the public face of that issue was changed by the politicians, the weight of opinion I see from clinicians is still against the politicised adoption of masks. Why are the Gov insisting on Tier3 controls when their own ONS is producing charts and data showing we have had a minor peak that did so at the end of September (on account of students returning particularly in Uni towns which has dramatically skewed the national picture) and is reducing in all Tier3 zones including GM? We'll look back on this period in horror when we see what a sham it all is and how much it's cost us in terms of mental health of the nation, increase in deaths through 'other' causes and the power of big business.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    But apparently the population is going out enough to test positive for Covid yet suppress seasonal flu? So what part of our behaviour is suppressing flu yet allowing a very similar coronavirus to spike? Probably be a good idea if we could mirror it then problem solved. The real answer is we're using the PCR test to find Covid in spite of the inventor (who died in October 2019) of the test saying it shouldn't be used to perform live test as it doesn't work yet it's the primary tool for T&T that itself doesn't work & cost £12bn, how much is it costing us to buy PCR from big pharma? Work that one out. Truth is it's impossible to differentiate between the virus of flu and Covid & the common cold. We live with recurring flu yet allow a similar virus to decimate our economy where the average age of a Covid mortality is 82 and will have co-morbidity. Also remember that the main reason we're wearing masks is to remind us all with a flag on our face that we're to be managed. Originally clinicians stated masks cause more issues than they solve with respiratory issues and bacteria, then the public face of that issue was changed by the politicians, the weight of opinion I see from clinicians is still against the politicised adoption of masks. Why are the Gov insisting on Tier3 controls when their own ONS is producing charts and data showing we have had a minor peak that did so at the end of September (on account of students returning particularly in Uni towns which has dramatically skewed the national picture) and is reducing in all Tier3 zones including GM? We'll look back on this period in horror when we see what a sham it all is and how much it's cost us in terms of mental health of the nation, increase in deaths through 'other' causes and the power of big business.


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    You should probably get your 'facts' from somewhere other than Facebook. The nonsense you're peddling about the inventor of the tests is fact checked in numerous places. Example here.

    Re flu, you're correct that the number of flu cases is considerably lower than the 'norm' but given the 'norm' for October is pretty low anyway it isn't remotely comparable to the increase in C19 cases even taking into account the relative levels of testing.

    Div is spot on and there is evidence for it when you look at the data for the southern hemisphere countries through their winter season. Even the likes of Aus/NZ who have had far fewer C19 cases, have seen almost no seasonal flu cases on the back of lockdowns and/or social distancing measures. See here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    But apparently the population is going out enough to test positive for Covid yet suppress seasonal flu? So what part of our behaviour is suppressing flu yet allowing a very similar coronavirus to spike? Probably be a good idea if we could mirror it then problem solved. The real answer is we're using the PCR test to find Covid in spite of the inventor (who died in October 2019) of the test saying it shouldn't be used to perform live test as it doesn't work yet it's the primary tool for T&T that itself doesn't work & cost £12bn, how much is it costing us to buy PCR from big pharma? Work that one out. Truth is it's impossible to differentiate between the virus of flu and Covid & the common cold. We live with recurring flu yet allow a similar virus to decimate our economy where the average age of a Covid mortality is 82 and will have co-morbidity. Also remember that the main reason we're wearing masks is to remind us all with a flag on our face that we're to be managed. Originally clinicians stated masks cause more issues than they solve with respiratory issues and bacteria, then the public face of that issue was changed by the politicians, the weight of opinion I see from clinicians is still against the politicised adoption of masks. Why are the Gov insisting on Tier3 controls when their own ONS is producing charts and data showing we have had a minor peak that did so at the end of September (on account of students returning particularly in Uni towns which has dramatically skewed the national picture) and is reducing in all Tier3 zones including GM? We'll look back on this period in horror when we see what a sham it all is and how much it's cost us in terms of mental health of the nation, increase in deaths through 'other' causes and the power of big business.


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    Actually, I think you'll find that the smart thinking is that Covid is being suppressed. If there were no social distancing measures, cases would be much higher in number. so I really don't understand your way of thinking here. It's suppressing both. Flu cases are rising now, but the levels are not rising to the levels you would expect in a normal year. it's the same reason nobody I know has had a cold since March, when normally this house especially is full of them. Distancing is reducing the spread.

    I agree on the points of the economy, the mental health and the average age of mortality comments. The rest is frighteningly ill informed nonsense that seems to have been taken from Googling 'Covid conspiracy' and listening to bandana wearing, right-wing nutjobs in the US of A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny NZ View Post
    Realise I am very fortunate to be here in NZ but I am not one who supports herd immunity. One aspect that is coming out in the science is the long term respiratory problems for those in mid 30's. Essentially saying shortening life expectancy for many.
    In an ideal world herd immunity would not be the way out, but this is not an ideal world. It's long since ceased being so. It's increasingly looking like our only way out. Pinning hopes on a vaccine is hopelessly optimistic. There is no precedent for anything like this being rolled out within a couple of short years.

    So, we have two options, let our lives fade away to zero and, for many of the fitter older ones, spend the few years they have left in total sadness and desperation, or try and come to a sort of level where we can live side by side with the virus whilst getting on with our lives.

    As harsh as it may sound, we cannot destroy the lives of the billions in humanity to save a few million people, mainly over 80s, across the globe, because if we continue with lockdowns until this vaccine becomes widespread in 3, 4 or 5 years, if ever, then hundreds of millions will be plunged into starvation, deprivation and misery, as well as those who are merely living life at 20% of the quality we've spent our lives building up the right to earn. If this carries on, the next generation will have a world that's not worth living in.

    Lockdowns do not eradicate, they delay. Back in March, the whole country was concerned with flattening the curve to prevent the NHS being overloaded at one time. Nobody seriously thought we could simply snuff it out, but 17 weeks of lockdown convinced people otherwise and that was wrong. Everyone seems to have lost sight of the initial aim. Not least the Government themselves.

    Wear the masks, wash your hands, be sensible, use your loaf, crack on. The only problem is that, unfortunately, much of this country is far too selfish to implement the first four and is only interested in the last one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Wear the masks, wash your hands, be sensible, use your loaf, crack on. The only problem is that, unfortunately, much of this country is far too selfish to implement the first four and is only interested in the last one.

    Spot on. It really is that simple. Unfortunately there's too many people who, for whatever reason (macho bullsh*t, arrogance, chip-on-shoulder, being a conspiracy nut, whatever) refuse to just comply. And unfortunately, they know they can get away with it.

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    I've seen a lot of talk that the reason we are in this mess is because people are not complying with rules.

    How much truth is actually in this? The majority to me seem to be complying to me. The numbers not wearing masks in shops seem very small for example.

    Look around Europe, cases started to increase roughly at the same time. Is it really the case that compliance slackened and therefore cases rose at nearly the exact same time?

    Or within countries, is it really the case that London ignored the rules in March so had a huge spike? Is it really the case that the north of England has en masse ignored restrictions now meanwhile the south west and east of England have complied? I don't think it is.

    The uncomfortable truth may be that we have very limited means of controlling the virus and our major flaw is thinking that we can. Humans have achieved so much and advanced so far. We sometimes find it difficult to accept that things are beyond our control, even temporarily.

    One day we may have means of controlling this, and we should strive for that. But for now, I don't think we do. And finger pointing and looking for a source of blame that isn't really there doesn't help, in my view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    Or within countries, is it really the case that London ignored the rules in March so had a huge spike? Is it really the case that the north of England has en masse ignored restrictions now meanwhile the south west and east of England have complied? I don't think it is.
    Interesting stuff. London was always going to get it big at the start, because before lockdown and home working there were hundreds of thousands of people travelling in and out every day. Before Covid the centre was basically the country within a few square miles. Thousands travelled down there every day from all parts of the country for various work events, and hundreds of thousands commute from the other Home Counties. I’d take trains from Macclesfield at 6:30 in the morning and the things were heaving, and then look at the state of Euston and Kings Cross at 6pm every night with people leaving to go back to all corners of the country. It was a melting pot for any outbreak in the country, and people from all areas congregated in a smallish area in the centre of London. I’m amazed it wasn’t worse to be honest.

    The thing about London is once you stopped all these people commuting in and out, and once you took away the smaller but not insignificant amount who travelled in and out for night-time entertainment, the problem decreased massively. If you live in London and don’t have to go to the office you do tend to stick to your patch quite a lot. The closures of offices took away so much activity from the centre that the chances of it spreading decreased rapidly. A lot of the areas around London are full of people who work in London, and so once the option to head into work was removed you ended up with a really big population of people not really moving around that much, so I’ve not been surprised that the South East has been lower than the North West in the last month or so.

    There is obviously complacency in the way people have behaved, and I’ve been guilty of that in thought but not actions. I’ve lowered my fear levels whilst still doing all the stuff I need to do to look after myself, but I’ve developed a more blasé attitude of late which in hindsight was naive. But as I say, I’ve not acted upon my thoughts by doing stupid stuff or putting myself or anyone else in danger, but others will have acted upon their complacency in active ways. I think this is a factor, and I think the nature of smaller cities like Liverpool and Manchester which have populations that depend more on their city centres for entertainment and commerce has meant those cities being affected more. People that live around London don’t rely on the city centre in anything like the way people do in places like Liverpool and Manchester, because the suburbs and the surrounding towns are packed with options. So people stick to their areas and leave central London pretty deserted by comparison. In Northern cities people have flocked to city centres because it’s more of a thing that people do in smaller cities. We’ve seen that this difference in culture mixed with a certain complacency has left the Northern cities in a bad way as a result. If we remove the options for people to come into the centres I think we’ll see a drop off quite quickly, but even Tier 3 regulations don’t really prevent people drinking, eating and shopping in large numbers if they really want to.

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