Every tory at the time backed action in Iraq,Corbyn was one of the few politicians at that time to call it a fake war and he was proved to be right tho i cant say ive heard many people give him credit for that
Seeing as we HAVEN'T signed the fat get, shouldn't this be in off topic.
The problem with having someone with that type of record leading the party is that it inspires no loyalty to him as leader, he would also have no comeback as when they vote against him they can just point to his record as a backbencher. He may have been right on some of those occasions but it can open up to open rebellion by those who dont like/agree with him.
I don't think I've ever had to think so hard about politics and my political position as I have through reading this thread. So many posters for whom I have great respect have raised points I haven't even considered. As other people have indicated, it's so refreshing to have a generally rational and civilised debate, without too much abuse, name-calling and shoutiness.
I don't think all politicians are rubbish, or venal, or simply carreerist. Some are, but many (of all political stripes) are conscientious and want to do the best for their communities. I particularly admire councillors - city, town, county, parish etc. Who'd want to go out on wet winter evenings to meetings, and deal with all the other 'trappings' of office, when they could be comfortably at home or even better, watching Saints?
I'm in the Labour Party and I've been canvassing and campaigning in Canterbury for the only Labour MP in the whole of Kent. (She won with a majority of 187 in 2017, and the city and district had NEVER before had any other MP than Conservative). Why Labour? Because I don't think we can go on like this. In every policy area, it seems to me (I'm not an expert on much except post-16 education) that we are in dire straits - climate change, education, prisons and probation, social care, homelessness and housing, health, local government - anywhere you want to look. Four million children are back in poverty. Students leave university loaded with debt. Women of a certain age are denied the pensions they have deserved. Our economy is low wage, low productivity. Crucially, our prosperity is based largely on property inflation (lovely for those on the ladder), the arms industry, consumer spending, personal debt, and the City of London (which benefits London and the South East, but nowhere much else). Regional neglect, including of the North West, is shameful. I want to have hope, and to buy into the possibility of transformation and a different vision of the future.
On Brexit, Labour's position looks as if it is comiing in to focus - renegotiate, and a new referendum with options to leave or remain. How will the Conservatives address the wishes of the 16 million people who wanted to remain, and how will the LibDems address the wishes of the 17 million who wanted to leave? I never thought I'd be a Welbyite, and yearn for our country to find some kind of reconciliation. I'm filled with admiration for Ireland and how it managed its debate and policy-making on abortion.
Of course a Labour government means danger. Will there immediately be a fllight of capital? Will high spend and borrow fuel inflation? Will Labour be able to stand up to all the forces lined up against it? I'm still on the side of hope and progressiveness. I don't believe the LP is simply tolerated by the Establishment as a kind of useful institutional idiot. If that were so, I'd be wasting my time.
Corbyn: marmite. Is he a terrorist or a peacenik? Is he weak and incompetent or resilient and determined? Is he a serial rebel, or unerringly on the right side of history (cf the Iraq war and the Guildford Four/Birmingham 6)? For all his flaws, alleged or otherwise, I truly believe that he's better than the alternative, and has a moral compass and sense of principle lacking elsewhere. I suppose I agree with other posters - the leadership choices aren't the best this time around.
All this reinforces why I am a Saints fan and on this forum. Here, we have different opinions but we're all on the same side. Being a Saints fan is comforting (especially over the last two seasons) where things are so crap elsewhere. When it's really gloomy, I think back to the away match against Hull FC in September - beautiful late summer evening, superb Saints performance, amazing support and cameraderie in the Saints fan zone. Roll on January 31st.
I'm late joining this debate as, for the first time I have been able to vote, I'm still unsure who to vote for....I just know though that another 5 years of this lot will see the social fabric of this country damaged beyond repair.
A decent opposition would have wiped this lot out last time around I'm sure.
Apart from the labour government of the immediate post WW2 Era, we just don't seem able to get a capable left wing socialist party in the same way that, say, the Scandinavians do - they're either pseudo Tories or far too left wing imo.
I voted Leave in the referendum, but if the cost of that is the continued erosion of the very infrastructure of this once great country, it's a price I'm no way prepared to pay.
It's not so much Corbyn I don't trust - although he's a very poor leader - it's those he surrounds himself with; Abbott as Home Secretary for example - absolutely no way!!
As for the Lib Dems......that woman is lucky she's a party leader too, equally inept as the rest.
Anyway, we'll all have the chance to cast our votes on Thursday and see how the cookie crumbles from Friday onwards........roll on the new season!!
"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............
"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............
Canterbredve thanks for your post, a great summing up.
When you vote just remember that the NHS and Brexit are incompatible so if you are daft enough to vote for Farage or self centred enough to vote Tory you will suffer unless you can afford to go private. There is no equivocation here, this is the situation.
Whilst a bit of cynicism is good, letting it consume you totally is just toxic.
There are good people in the world.
(And Jacinda Ardern's dad was a policeman, her mum a school dinnerlady; her own first job was working in a chippy... hardly the trappings of this wealth that her possible distant relatives have. She's a mid-Left Labour NZ politician wanting to create a fairer, better world, not some embittered Tory tw*at out to shaft the little guy for the financial benefit of the '1%')
The problem with democracy is that its a popularity contest. Politicians can promise anything they wish as they don't have to pay for it.
Tax cuts, spending rises take your pick all on the back of a future generations tax receipts.
So when we say politicians lie well so do the voters as we all like to believe we can have something for nothing. The politicians just feed this addiction.
Until one day the shit hits the fan and reality bites at which point everyone starts looking for a scapegoat to blame.
Capitalism and democracy are not compatible . You can have one but not the other !
Yes agree- here in NZ the Prime Minister has shown compassion, understanding and empathy. Alas as we see all over the world those opposed to her are resorting to the type of attack politics that is sadly very common in UK, USA and OZ. The National Party in NZ ( basically the tories) have hired in the same campaign managers that were used in OZ and US - with a background in fake news and social media manipulation.
This is why I can't stand talking about politics. Why can't people give a balanced view rather than completely biased propaganda without any factual base? It seems unfashionable in modern society to give a balanced view without calling people in the other camp idiots, selfish or naive.
And I'm going to be f***ing narky today, knowing that the quality of life for my family and millions of others is going to go downhill after today, when that bunch of right-wing shysters and spivs get control and systematically over the next 5 years remove the protections (for workers, the environment, consumers) that being in the EU has brought.
There is a factual base though. Read the documents that were originally redacted and now available online describing the US-UK trade deals and the desire to leave the EU and trade directly. If you can afford insurance and don’t want a free to all NHS then fair play, vote Tory/Brexit but own the fact you are quite selfish.
I won't be voting, but if I were i would lean toward the Tories, apart from the threat to the NH. After living most of my life in countries without a NH, I realise probably more than most how vital it is. Though, I do think there should be checks on patients eligibility for treatment. Spain has a NH but you will not get treatment without an ID card or an EHIC. With regard to the candidates today, I may have seen worse individually, but together as a pair those two must be among the poorest.