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Thread: Boris Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    I’m not sure that this election cannot be seen as anything other than an existential crisis for the Labour Party, voters and constituencies that have been staunch Labour locks for decades went elsewhere, i don't think that can be overlooked. Labour need to look at why people didn't vote for them, a lot of MPs who lost their seat have laid it at the feet of the leadership, a member of such Lady Nugee has been attributed with saying her constituents are smarter than those of a Northern Labour MP that has lost their seat. I agree, Labour need to get away from having a London centric leader, it should be someone who understands the Northern heartlands, something that seems to have been forgotten, this election seems to show that the north has been taken for granted.
    It is also an existential crisis for the Tories, given how many grandees voted other than Tory - Major, Heseltine etc - and the Johnson purge of centre-right people like Grieve. It’s too early to say how this will pan out, but if Labour elect another Corbynite then they will be out of power for the next decade. Green politics and Extinction Rebellion might be our only hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    It is also an existential crisis for the Tories, given how many grandees voted other than Tory - Major, Heseltine etc - and the Johnson purge of centre-right people like Grieve. It’s too early to say how this will pan out, but if Labour elect another Corbynite then they will be out of power for the next decade. Green politics and Extinction Rebellion might be our only hope.
    It does look as though Johnson is having a clear out especially with around 30% cabinet being sacked if he fills some of those positions with MP's from the North then maybe the "Northern Powerhouse" will not be propoganda but reality during these 5 years of government.
    Meanwhile it seems the squabbling will carry on with Labour as they will be playing out the blame game, allegedly Emily Thornberry has already started by saying the voters from the North are stupid.

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    The most fascinating element of this election for me is just how biased towards the Conservatives the BBC was. There's always a hint of bias but they were openly against Jeremy Corbyn / Labour throughout the campaign and did everything they could to help Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson / Conservative

    When the BBC reporter said "and hopefully Boris gets the majority he so richly deserves" before even the exit poll result just about summed them up

    It's also incredible just how influential the likes of the Sun and Mail are despite declining readership, people still continue to believe their lies

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    It does look as though Johnson is having a clear out especially with around 30% cabinet being sacked if he fills some of those positions with MP's from the North then maybe the "Northern Powerhouse" will not be propoganda but reality during these 5 years of government.
    Meanwhile it seems the squabbling will carry on with Labour as they will be playing out the blame game, allegedly Emily Thornberry has already started by saying the voters from the North are stupid.
    Agree on the Northern Powerhouse point, if done correctly their could be a boom of activity and growth across the North, something missing for a long time. As for Emily Thornberry, i’m with Caroline Flint on that, its not like Thornberry has history of turning her nose up at the North, she got sacked from Millibands shadow cabinet for her tweet about a white van man in Rochester. What Labour need to focus on is getting a leader that is a moderate and able to organise them as a strong opposition, a Corbynite like Rebecca Long-Bailey is not going to do that.

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    If labour continue with what is perceived as Corbynism they might as well pack up and close down now. Blair took policies from the conservatives in the 90's and won 3 elections with new labour.
    Britain is a liberal middle of the road society but unfortunately our first past the post system elects the least worst party.
    Learned comment from The Don

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    So which way anyone voted is thier choice , but please everyone who voted either way just watch the John Pilger show on ITV tomorrow at 10 45 PM .
    roy litherland it's happened i told you it would

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    Good to see you back Roy. I hope things are going OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc View Post
    Let's get back to the start and the man to blame for the shit storm that is Brexit, Cameron! He only promised the referendum to try and shut up the right wing nutcases in his own party and in UKIP. Then, instead of negotiating the basis of our exit from the EU and presenting that in a remain or leave vote, as per current Labour policy, he just went for a straight forward yes/no vote on staying so the electorate had no idea what a leave vote would mean. As many of our government agencies have been integrated with those of Europe for the best part of 50 years we will have an awful lot of negotiating to do and also be faced with the task and expense of setting up new government agencies unless we agree to continue to be regulated by Europe's which would set off the Brexiteers again. In addition, products would still have to be manufactured to EU standards to be sold in the EU.

    Re the election, I am horrified how many Labour voters in the North, especially those in former mining communities, allowed the Tories to get in after how Maggie treated the North in the 80s. I remember donating tins of food at school so that it could be passed on to the families of striking miners, I remember 3.5 million people on the dole thanks to the destruction of traditional industries with no economic plan by the Tories to replace them, I remember Heseltine being put in charge of the managed decline of one of our great cities, Liverpool, I remember sky high interest rates after Black Wednesday. The EU did more to help the deprived communities in the North than any Tory government ever did yet sheeple believed the Mail, Sun and Express etc whose owners had a vested interest in the UK leaving the EU i.e. the prevention of single individuals having too much control of the media (Murdoch must have been crapping himself about that).

    I am an active Labour member and after Milliband quit believed we should have stepped slightly to the left to regain our traditional working class vote, not the huge running jump we took instead in putting Corbyn in charge, backed by his mates at Momentum, the new Militant in my eyes. The amount of far left people that started to turn up at meetings and who were quite disruptive at times started to increase. Luckily, in my CLP, the Blairites remained in control but new rules forced through at conference in my opinion were put in place so that it would be possible for a few well organised people from Momentum to take over a CLP. Now I actually agree with quite a few of Corbyn's policies e.g. renationalisation of the railways, gas, electric and water as I think it is needed for green/environmental reasons and that national infrastructure is too important to be left in the control of big business. However, what the Corbynites forgot is that that you can have all the principles and well-meaning progressive policies you can come up with, but unless you have the leader who can get "Mondeo Man" to buy into it and vote you into power they are worthless. Corbyn is not that leader. Neither is Abbot, McDonnell or any other of the far left cabal in the PLP. Even if labour did have that leader they would be constantly attacked by the predominantly right wing press. What lost Labour seats was not a switch to the Tories, who didn't massively increase their vote in Wigan, Makerfield and Leigh, but voters either refusing to vote for a Corbyn lead party or defecting to the Brexit party. Luckily Lisa Nandy and Yvonne Fovargue survived in Wigan and Makerfield due to having large majorities and the split in the leave vote caused by the Brexit party. Sadly Jo Platt in Leigh lost her seat.

    Where does Labour go now? Well Corbyn has to go and the party get a new more media friendly leader from the centre left. The new leader will also have to get a grip on Momentum in much the same way Kinnock got a grip on Militant (Lansbury, the Momentum leader is a fruitcake). Who are the likely leaders? Well with Burnham being out of the picture for the time being my list of candidates would be Lisa Nandy, Yvette Cooper, Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn or Dan Jarvis.

    How politics evolved since 2015, to get us to the point we are at today, has been like some novel that any sane person would consider too far-fetched.

    With regards to Corbyn & Momentum, for years people 'on the left' had no real home for their vote, with Labour experimenting with following a broadly centre-right economic programme (low direct taxation, low-regulation, continuing privatisation of public services, retaining anti-trade union laws, etc) which oversaw a further widening of the wealth & income gap between the 'top 1%' and the rest. Many left-leaning people stopped voting for the party - in 1997, 13.5m people voted for Bliar's NuLabour, falling to 10.7m in 2001 and 9.5m in 2005 (Corbyn got 12.8m in 2017 and 10.2m in 2019, whilst Milliband polled 8.6m in 2015). Some switched initially to the Lib Dems, who did have more left-of-centre policies certainly in 2005 and 2010, and their vote increased from 4.8m in 2001 to 6.8m in 2010, whilst the Greens (who as well as pro-environmental policies, have a radical-left policy direction) went from 0.06m votes in 97 to 1.11m in 2015. With both the LD's and Greens, their vote fell back markedly after Corbyn won the labour leadership, took the party leftwards and saw Labour's vote increase.

    My point is, there's a substantial appetite for left-of-centre policies.

    This is backed up by several opinion polls and studies looking at individual policy areas, where the left-of-centre options generally have a much greater support amongst the general public than the right-wing options. Things like strong and properly-funded public services, nationalisation of essential utilities, abolishing tuition fees, stopping privatisation of public services, targeting tax rises at those with the most income & wealth to cover it, etc.

    However, this isn't me giving support to Corbyn. Whilst I think he's a good person motivated by wanting to help make the lives the millions of 'ordinary people' better, he's shown himself to be a very poor leader, and atrocious strategist. He has too many skeletons in his closet that the predominantly right-wing media have been able to exaggerate and twist to portray him as some sort of danger to the nation - and some people are only too willing to believe such crap. In the most important and potentially crippling issue facing this country since WW2 - Brexit - his position has been confused & contradictory. I actually think the position they settled on for the GE - try to negotiate a better deal, then put it to the public in a 2nd referendum - was eminently sensible and correct, but as his position had been all over the place since the very day of the referendum result (and his pre-referendum action appalling), the damage was already done - remainers wouldn't flock to Labour in numbers believing them the best option to deliver a route to halt Brexit, whilst leavers deserted them. They fell between two stools.

    The problem people advocating a stride back towards the centre have is that the Labour leader is selected by the membership, and those left-of-centre people who walked away from the party when it was NuLabour came back when there was a chance of a leftist becoming leader, and now want to keep the party left-of-centre. Momentum was set up to keep leftist activism alive within the party.

    So the next leader will need to appeal to the left, even if they don't necessarily come from that 'rather hard left' movement.

    Personally, I'd prefer a bit of a compromise candidate to win. Someone who can keep both wings of the party onside enough.

    But whoever wins, they need to operate smarter. I'm a 'lefty', but one thing that frustrates me about 'the left' is that they always seem intent on winning the moral argument and trying to convince people to admit the left argument is correct. That isn't the way to win elections - you only need to persuade enough people to vote for you. Because surely the whole point of being in politics is to get the policies implemented that you view as the right path to go down.

    Leading on from that, Labour are too honest and wear their heart on their sleeve too openly. They should focus their manifesto on the policies that chime well with the electorate, and take a lead from the Tories by either omitting or dressing up those policies that won't go down as well - you never hear the Tories talking about cutting tens of thousands of public sector workers, or increasing private company profit-seeking involvement in the NHS, etc.

    They need to build a narrative around a manifesto, an easy and simple message to sell to the electorate, with a positive vision for the country.

    My choice for leader would be Keir Starmer, who looks to have the right balance, and is obviously a hugely intelligent bloke. I think Long-Bailey and Raynor are capable politicians, but haven't yet built the sort of gravitas needed.

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    Again, I agree with large tracts of what you've written, WA. The difficulty for Labour was a traditionally Labour supporting Leave electorate and a party membership that was, and is, overwhelmingly Remain. That made Labour's emerging Brexit position logical but unsustainable.

    The only bit I don't go along with at all is at the end. Please, not Starmer. I don't think he's radical. I don't think we need a technocrat. He's not an orator. But above all, he's London-based. Long-Bailey would be tainted by her association with 'Corbynism'. For her and Rayner it's too early. But I'm flummoxed about who might be suitable to step up.

    It's so much easier sticking to Rugby League, and detesting Wigan and Leeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canterbredve View Post
    Again, I agree with large tracts of what you've written, WA. The difficulty for Labour was a traditionally Labour supporting Leave electorate and a party membership that was, and is, overwhelmingly Remain. That made Labour's emerging Brexit position logical but unsustainable.

    The only bit I don't go along with at all is at the end. Please, not Starmer. I don't think he's radical. I don't think we need a technocrat. He's not an orator. But above all, he's London-based. Long-Bailey would be tainted by her association with 'Corbynism'. For her and Rayner it's too early. But I'm flummoxed about who might be suitable to step up.

    It's so much easier sticking to Rugby League, and detesting Wigan and Leeds.
    I think realistically the next Labour leader needs to come from outside Corbyns shadow cabinet, and be someone with very few skeletons in their closet, if MSM wants to throw dirt they need to be as clean as possible in my opinion. What they will need to do is probably not come from the Momentum wing but be able to work with them effectively, i am not sure who that would be but the country needs a strong and organised opposition to ensure a better and accountable government. As for detesting Wigan and Leeda, you forgot to include Warrington.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    You forgot to include Warrington.
    Not worth it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    I think realistically the next Labour leader needs to come from outside Corbyns shadow cabinet, and be someone with very few skeletons in their closet, if MSM wants to throw dirt they need to be as clean as possible in my opinion. What they will need to do is probably not come from the Momentum wing but be able to work with them effectively, i am not sure who that would be but the country needs a strong and organised opposition to ensure a better and accountable government. As for detesting Wigan and Leeda, you forgot to include Warrington.
    I accept the point that our Canterbury friend makes about Starmer being a bit of a technocrat, but his grasp of the detail of Brexit and ability to explain the pitfalls was good. Although he was in the Shadown Cabinet, he's not from Momentum whatsoever, indeed more the more central 'soft left', but has shown he can work with Momentum.

    I like Hilary Benn, too, although he's perhaps viewed as 'too Bliarite' by Momentum (would his lineage deflect some ire?), whilst Yvette Cooper definitely doesn't stand a chance with Momentum.

    Other than that, prominent figures within Corbyn-Labour lack gravitas. If it was Diane Abbott elected leader, I'd be tempted to vote Tory, and Thornberry isn't much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I accept the point that our Canterbury friend makes about Starmer being a bit of a technocrat, but his grasp of the detail of Brexit and ability to explain the pitfalls was good. Although he was in the Shadown Cabinet, he's not from Momentum whatsoever, indeed more the more central 'soft left', but has shown he can work with Momentum.

    I like Hilary Benn, too, although he's perhaps viewed as 'too Bliarite' by Momentum (would his lineage deflect some ire?), whilst Yvette Cooper definitely doesn't stand a chance with Momentum.

    Other than that, prominent figures within Corbyn-Labour lack gravitas. If it was Diane Abbott elected leader, I'd be tempted to vote Tory, and Thornberry isn't much better.
    Forgot about Hilary Benn, in my opinion he would be a good shout seems to be more of a moderate and comes across with a better balanced viewpoint with reasonable values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Good to see you back Roy. I hope things are going OK.
    Hi Belgian been a bit busy medical wise , had a "little bit " of good news last week , may even buy our season tickets now .
    roy litherland it's happened i told you it would

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    Quote Originally Posted by roy litherland View Post
    Hi Belgian been a bit busy medical wise , had a "little bit " of good news last week , may even buy our season tickets now .
    Really glad to hear that Roy.

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    Totally agree with Webbo. My views encapsulated, expressed eloquently and with clarity. I could see, along with many others, that the Labour Manifesto was ill conceived and not feasible. Much as I admire the principles forming the backbone of the manifesto, I felt disheartened as it was so unrealistic and would not lead to a win for Labour. The Tories fought a better campaign with a slogan that appealed to ‘Workington Man.’ I’m still reeling at the prospects of what the future holds.

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    I have read this morning that Long -Bailey is in the favourite spot, I just wish that Corbyn would jack it in now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Ged View Post
    I have read this morning that Long -Bailey is in the favourite spot, I just wish that Corbyn would jack it in now.
    Wow, I never even knew that Sean and Ryan had a kid!

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    I saw Stephen Kinnock being interviewed on Monday and was impressed by the way he spoke and he was smartly dressed , I wouldn't worry in the least if he was going talking for the country anywhere.

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    I have enjoyed this topic, some very good posts in general. What i don't understand is why some posters don't understand former Labour strongholds switching their allegiance, all but temporary in my view. Another strong point being made for not switching was Thatcher closing mines. On that argument why did Labour supporters not switch their allegiance when Harold Wilson did the Same. Historically Wilson closed more mines than Thatcher. I was a staunch Labour supporter for many years but became disillusioned during Blairs tenure. I was never even tempted to vote tory though. 3 years ago I voted to leave Europe in a democratic referendum as did a very large majority of my town. My MP and many other Labour MPs did not represent their constituents and did there level best to thwart brexit, this general election I voted with a clear conscience to vote for the party who represented my views as did many more former dyed in the wool Labour voters. The lesson to be learned from all of this is that a MP is elected to represent the people who elected them not to persue their own agenda and feather their own nest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    I have enjoyed this topic, some very good posts in general. What i don't understand is why some posters don't understand former Labour strongholds switching their allegiance, all but temporary in my view. Another strong point being made for not switching was Thatcher closing mines. On that argument why did Labour supporters not switch their allegiance when Harold Wilson did the Same. Historically Wilson closed more mines than Thatcher. I was a staunch Labour supporter for many years but became disillusioned during Blairs tenure. I was never even tempted to vote tory though. 3 years ago I voted to leave Europe in a democratic referendum as did a very large majority of my town. My MP and many other Labour MPs did not represent their constituents and did there level best to thwart brexit, this general election I voted with a clear conscience to vote for the party who represented my views as did many more former dyed in the wool Labour voters. The lesson to be learned from all of this is that a MP is elected to represent the people who elected them not to persue their own agenda and feather their own nest.
    Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    I have enjoyed this topic, some very good posts in general. What i don't understand is why some posters don't understand former Labour strongholds switching their allegiance, all but temporary in my view. Another strong point being made for not switching was Thatcher closing mines. On that argument why did Labour supporters not switch their allegiance when Harold Wilson did the Same. Historically Wilson closed more mines than Thatcher. I was a staunch Labour supporter for many years but became disillusioned during Blairs tenure. I was never even tempted to vote tory though. 3 years ago I voted to leave Europe in a democratic referendum as did a very large majority of my town. My MP and many other Labour MPs did not represent their constituents and did there level best to thwart brexit, this general election I voted with a clear conscience to vote for the party who represented my views as did many more former dyed in the wool Labour voters. The lesson to be learned from all of this is that a MP is elected to represent the people who elected them not to persue their own agenda and feather their own nest.
    Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roy litherland View Post
    So which way anyone voted is thier choice , but please everyone who voted either way just watch the John Pilger show on ITV tomorrow at 10 45 PM .
    Watched it Roy, Pilger is an aussie Jeremy Corbyn. The NHS should be sacrosanct and any party that tries to sell it off would be voted out. Andy Burnham used the private sector which I disagreed with, but in his defence he did this to get rid of a backlog of minor operations that had previously been kept on the back burner. What I cannot accept is the sacking of nurses and junior doctors only to be replaced by agency personnel on higher pay at a greater cost to the NHS. This to me is the thin end of the wedge into the opening of privatisation. Johnson stated the NHS is safe in his hands, his future depends on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    I have enjoyed this topic, some very good posts in general. What i don't understand is why some posters don't understand former Labour strongholds switching their allegiance, all but temporary in my view. Another strong point being made for not switching was Thatcher closing mines. On that argument why did Labour supporters not switch their allegiance when Harold Wilson did the Same. Historically Wilson closed more mines than Thatcher. I was a staunch Labour supporter for many years but became disillusioned during Blairs tenure. I was never even tempted to vote tory though. 3 years ago I voted to leave Europe in a democratic referendum as did a very large majority of my town. My MP and many other Labour MPs did not represent their constituents and did there level best to thwart brexit, this general election I voted with a clear conscience to vote for the party who represented my views as did many more former dyed in the wool Labour voters. The lesson to be learned from all of this is that a MP is elected to represent the people who elected them not to persue their own agenda and feather their own nest.
    The Brexit question has always been a hugely nuanced issue - but those driving it have always made it out to be a simple black and white.

    Firstly, leaving the EU encompasses a wide range of options, from a ‘soft’ Brexit where we remain part of the Customs Union and perhaps even the Single Market but outside of the core entity that is the EU, right through to the sort of ‘hard’ Brexit proposed by the right-wing and seemingly the aim of Bozo, where we cut all ties with the EU. The referendum didn’t specify what type of Brexit we would have, and different people voted for different perception of what their vote would entail. By taking the ‘hard Brexit’ route, Bozo and his hard-right wing cohorts have ignored the Leave voters who expected/wanted a soft Brexit.

    Secondly, both our economy and our regulatory framework have, over the 40-odd years we have been members of the Common Market/EEC/EU, become enmeshed and entwined. It’s a massive and hugely difficult process to not just disentangle from the EU, but implement replacement policies, laws, regulations and markets.

    Thirdly, countless opinion polls in the 3 and half years since the Referendum had shown a growing majority support for remaining should there be a second vote. In other words, through a combination of people changing their minds and older Leave voters dying and being replaced by less anti-EU younger people, there is no longer a majority of the electorate who wants to leave the EU (and even in this election, 52% of people voted for parties whose Brexit policy was either a second referendum or revoke Article 50 and remain)

    Then there is the potential destruction of protections (for workers, the environment, consumers) once we are outside the EU. Many of the most anti-EU politicians and people from the business world who have driven and funded the Leave movement since before the referendum was even announced, have been vociferous in peddling their anti-regulatory mantra. They want a ‘free-market free-for-all’ without having to adhere to a framework of minimum-standard rules and regulations enforced by the EU. They misrepresent their aims as wanting a ‘bonfire of red tape’ but they really mean they want to be able to burn the protections for workers, the environment, and consumers.

    There are the proposed new trade deals, misleadingly touted as ‘oven ready’ by Bozo. During the past 3 years, we’ve had the USA, Australia and India all publicly unequivocally state that any trade deal with the UK would need to include much more benefit to those three countries than they have under the trade deals the UK currently enjoys through the power of the EU. In the US, officials have stressed that the UK must change its rules/regulations in favour of both the US’s agri-industrial and pharma industry sectors, with the UK being forced to accept the woeful food hygiene standards of the US and give US pharma-giants longer patents that will cost the UK taxpayer £billions. In Parallel, malevolent scumbags like Rees-Smug and his ERG have parroted the line that being outside the EU will mean cheaper food – yes, that could be correct: chlorinated chicken, puss-ridden milk, hormone-pumped beef, and GM cereals from Uncle Sam. It will destroy the UK’s farming industry, but who cares, eh?

    It's also not true that our two MP’s “did not represent their constituents and did there level best to thwart Brexit”. In the ‘indicative votes’ that sought a compromise ‘soft Brexit’ solution to the deadlock, McGinn voted in support of both of the Brexit options, whilst Rimmer voted in favour of the Customs Union option. In other words, they voted for a version of Brexit that would have been a compromise ‘soft brexit’ that would have best healed the divisions created by this infernal issue.

    Perhaps our MP’s took the time to understand the massive pitfalls that a hard Brexit would throw at their constituents and went for the least damaging version of Brexit, whilst opposing the most damaging ‘hard Brexit’.

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    Regarding the next labour leader, how about Andy Burnham stepping down as Manchester Mayor, Marie Rimmer stepping down as MP for St. Helens South, hey presto a local MP for the town, a safe seat for Andy, and possibly labour leadership.

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