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Thread: Boris Johnson

  1. #326
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    I would just like to say thankyou to those posters who have contributed to this thread although it has been somewhat derailed from its initial humorous intent. The debate from both sides has predominantly been conducted in a civilised and reasoned manner and has not resorted to the name calling and trolling that resulted in a similar discussion on the Wigan board being closed down by the moderators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc View Post
    Let's get back to the start and the man to blame for the shit storm that is Brexit, Cameron! He only promised the referendum to try and shut up the right wing nutcases in his own party and in UKIP. Then, instead of negotiating the basis of our exit from the EU and presenting that in a remain or leave vote, as per current Labour policy, he just went for a straight forward yes/no vote on staying so the electorate had no idea what a leave vote would mean. As many of our government agencies have been integrated with those of Europe for the best part of 50 years we will have an awful lot of negotiating to do and also be faced with the task and expense of setting up new government agencies unless we agree to continue to be regulated by Europe's which would set off the Brexiteers again. In addition, products would still have to be manufactured to EU standards to be sold in the EU.

    Re the election, I am horrified how many Labour voters in the North, especially those in former mining communities, allowed the Tories to get in after how Maggie treated the North in the 80s. I remember donating tins of food at school so that it could be passed on to the families of striking miners, I remember 3.5 million people on the dole thanks to the destruction of traditional industries with no economic plan by the Tories to replace them, I remember Heseltine being put in charge of the managed decline of one of our great cities, Liverpool, I remember sky high interest rates after Black Wednesday. The EU did more to help the deprived communities in the North than any Tory government ever did yet sheeple believed the Mail, Sun and Express etc whose owners had a vested interest in the UK leaving the EU i.e. the prevention of single individuals having too much control of the media (Murdoch must have been crapping himself about that).

    I am an active Labour member and after Milliband quit believed we should have stepped slightly to the left to regain our traditional working class vote, not the huge running jump we took instead in putting Corbyn in charge, backed by his mates at Momentum, the new Militant in my eyes. The amount of far left people that started to turn up at meetings and who were quite disruptive at times started to increase. Luckily, in my CLP, the Blairites remained in control but new rules forced through at conference in my opinion were put in place so that it would be possible for a few well organised people from Momentum to take over a CLP. Now I actually agree with quite a few of Corbyn's policies e.g. renationalisation of the railways, gas, electric and water as I think it is needed for green/environmental reasons and that national infrastructure is too important to be left in the control of big business. However, what the Corbynites forgot is that that you can have all the principles and well-meaning progressive policies you can come up with, but unless you have the leader who can get "Mondeo Man" to buy into it and vote you into power they are worthless. Corbyn is not that leader. Neither is Abbot, McDonnell or any other of the far left cabal in the PLP. Even if labour did have that leader they would be constantly attacked by the predominantly right wing press. What lost Labour seats was not a switch to the Tories, who didn't massively increase their vote in Wigan, Makerfield and Leigh, but voters either refusing to vote for a Corbyn lead party or defecting to the Brexit party. Luckily Lisa Nandy and Yvonne Fovargue survived in Wigan and Makerfield due to having large majorities and the split in the leave vote caused by the Brexit party. Sadly Jo Platt in Leigh lost her seat.

    Where does Labour go now? Well Corbyn has to go and the party get a new more media friendly leader from the centre left. The new leader will also have to get a grip on Momentum in much the same way Kinnock got a grip on Militant (Lansbury, the Momentum leader is a fruitcake). Who are the likely leaders? Well with Burnham being out of the picture for the time being my list of candidates would be Lisa Nandy, Yvette Cooper, Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn or Dan Jarvis.
    100% spot on that (cant believe i am agreing with a pie).

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc View Post
    I would just like to say thankyou to those posters who have contributed to this thread although it has been somewhat derailed from its initial humorous intent. The debate from both sides has predominantly been conducted in a civilised and reasoned manner and has not resorted to the name calling and trolling that resulted in a similar discussion on the Wigan board being closed down by the moderators.
    Your breath smells like manky old socks.

  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delighted! View Post
    100% spot on that (cant believe i am agreing with a pie).
    me to (I cant believe it either that a pie eater speaks so much sense )



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  5. #330
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    Cards on the table I usually vote conservative as do many people I know but not this year I believe that we needed a change to labour BUT the Labour party gave the country absolutely no choice. A complete disgrace of an opposition.
    Learned comment from The Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delighted! View Post
    Corbyn ••••ed the Labour Party worse than Cunningham ••••ed saints.
    That could be a fair argument however, i believe Corbyn seen what has been a big issue for a long time . That being , the under representation of the working class and the sub underclasses . This lack of representation which has led to the degradation of society the fall out within the working classes and the lack of political Identity , hope and prospects within the working classes. His vision in my opinion was to change the fabric of the working classes for it is those people who provide the wealth ( the workers) and generate a strong economy. give them power and you will see and improved society.
    Unfortunately many labour voters only seen brexit and that labour had no stance and therefore we go back to the ‘ lack of representation on 1 very big issue . The bigger issues have seemingly been forgotten in the fog of Brexit. We now have to look forward to 5 years of no representation , increased social degradation. Unlike Cunningham at Saints, its much harder to Sack Boris when things go from bad to worse . We will all suffer under Boris in towns like ours and for 5 years we will simply have to put up with it and survive .

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    Just been mentioned on the radio that every seat Labour lost was a leave area. Says it all really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Side Of The Moon View Post
    That could be a fair argument however, i believe Corbyn seen what has been a big issue for a long time . That being , the under representation of the working class and the sub underclasses . This lack of representation which has led to the degradation of society the fall out within the working classes and the lack of political Identity , hope and prospects within the working classes. His vision in my opinion was to change the fabric of the working classes for it is those people who provide the wealth ( the workers) and generate a strong economy. give them power and you will see and improved society.
    Unfortunately many labour voters only seen brexit and that labour had no stance and therefore we go back to the ‘ lack of representation on 1 very big issue . The bigger issues have seemingly been forgotten in the fog of Brexit. We now have to look forward to 5 years of no representation , increased social degradation. Unlike Cunningham at Saints, its much harder to Sack Boris when things go from bad to worse . We will all suffer under Boris in towns like ours and for 5 years we will simply have to put up with it and survive .
    When I read such posts as this I am never certain why there is a belief that the “working class” is underrepresented. Surely, the working class is 90+ percent of the adult population, with each member having a vote. Aside from any skew associated with a first-past-the-post electoral system, surely the political outcome is a consequence of the fact that the majority of the working class voted for the present status quo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    When I read such posts as this I am never certain why there is a belief that the “working class” is underrepresented. Surely, the working class is 90+ percent of the adult population, with each member having a vote. Aside from any skew associated with a first-past-the-post electoral system, surely the political outcome is a consequence of the fact that the majority of the working class voted for the present status quo?
    Jesus Christ, it's Jacob Rees-Mogg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Jesus Christ, it's Jacob Rees-Mogg.
    Aside from any intended humour, this doesn’t help with my understanding of what some people think the working class is. Certainly a •••• like Rees-Mogg can only be excluded from that category (but I’d accept being him if I had his money) but surely most of the near 14m who voted Tory can only be considered to be working class.

    PS the censored word was twa.t, not a swear word from where I was brought up but people can feel free to substitute whatever they wish.

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    This is now becoming quite tedious. Some folk are reasonable, some have entrenched opinions, some believe in identity politics, some don't, whatever. Can we please get back to RL, or at least sport and move this thread to another place for those who wish to continue it. We've had the election, the folk have spoken. Those that like the result like it, those that don't, don't. Let's move on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    Cards on the table I usually vote conservative as do many people I know but not this year I believe that we needed a change to labour BUT the Labour party gave the country absolutely no choice. A complete disgrace of an opposition.
    I'm exactly the same - conservatives have been appalling for the last 3 years in particular. If Labour had got their act together and had a leader people believed in they should have walked this election

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    Probably about tome this thread was closed. The vote has happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Nel View Post
    I'm exactly the same - conservatives have been appalling for the last 3 years in particular. If Labour had got their act together and had a leader people believed in they should have walked this election
    I think that was more or less down to Brexit and the blocker John Bercow who has gilded his retirement nest recently, the whole of parliament has been a disgrace. I would also say the social media atrocious debates between MP's on various platforms had migrated into all manner of a farce into Westminster itself.

    Quite a few MP's from all parties have fell on their sword but Corbyn is still happy to stick around, bit like dog poo on the bottom of your shoe but if you keep on walking through the grass is will eventually disappear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Aside from any intended humour, this doesn’t help with my understanding of what some people think the working class is. Certainly a •••• like Rees-Mogg can only be excluded from that category (but I’d accept being him if I had his money) but surely most of the near 14m who voted Tory can only be considered to be working class.

    PS the censored word was twa.t, not a swear word from where I was brought up but people can feel free to substitute whatever they wish.
    I actually agree with you and was just being a smart arse. I would class that **** as one of the most dislikeable Tories and would take pleasure punching his smug face in.

    PS I didn't mean tw*t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Probably about tome this thread was closed. The vote has happened.
    Why? If you don't want to read it, then don't open it. Don't stop other from expressing their opinions. Personally, I find different people's political opinions very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    When I read such posts as this I am never certain why there is a belief that the “working class” is underrepresented. Surely, the working class is 90+ percent of the adult population, with each member having a vote. Aside from any skew associated with a first-past-the-post electoral system, surely the political outcome is a consequence of the fact that the majority of the working class voted for the present status quo?
    Hence the reason why society is the way it it. The political system for the last 40 years has increasingly only represented 10% of the electorate. The owners of wealth !

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    I am going to leave this thread myself now as what i feel needed to be said on my part i have said . On a final note its worth mentioning that this have been one of the best discussion boards on this topic that i have contributed to. Whatever your beliefs and values , fair play to all who has contributed and given this discussion some merit.

    Look forward to the next thread it certainly passes the time during closed season. I have found it far more stimulating than choosing my fav prop forward of the decade. ! I ( not my thing) Take care folks and see you all in another thread!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    Only one word to describe ex voting Labour turncoats. SELFISH. I don't care if we stay or leave but what wonderous things do they think are going to happen after Brexit.


    For one, we will have British people ruling Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    For one, we will have British people ruling Britain.
    If done properly we can control the football, does Germany want us to buy there cars, does France want us to buy there wines, does Spain want us as tourists, does the EU want to sail their fishing factory ships in our waters. The biggest doubt is that the Tories are not ready for global trade and it might take 5 years to unravel all this nonsense from the federal EU, BoJo has the enthusiasm but its the people underneath him that needs to take the tasks full on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    For one, we will have British people ruling Britain.
    British people??? I’m ashamed to be British if I’m represented by Jonson, Reece-Mogg and Gove! They don’t represent the type of Britain I am proud of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    British people??? I’m ashamed to be British if I’m represented by Jonson, Reece-Mogg and Gove! They don’t represent the type of Britain I am proud of.
    Yes, Corbyn and Abbott would have been much better and more representative of Britain in general.
    Last edited by knowsley roader; 15th December 2019 at 19:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Meninga View Post
    Why? If you don't want to read it, then don't open it. Don't stop other from expressing their opinions. Personally, I find different people's political opinions very interesting.
    Fair enough Dave, but can we move it to the "Off Topic" section? This section the "Red Vee Rugby Discussion" section is supposed to be about; "Just rugby topics and discussion". The "Off Topic" section is supposed to cover "Music, TV, politics, food...…………….."

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc View Post
    Let's get back to the start and the man to blame for the shit storm that is Brexit, Cameron! He only promised the referendum to try and shut up the right wing nutcases in his own party and in UKIP. Then, instead of negotiating the basis of our exit from the EU and presenting that in a remain or leave vote, as per current Labour policy, he just went for a straight forward yes/no vote on staying so the electorate had no idea what a leave vote would mean. As many of our government agencies have been integrated with those of Europe for the best part of 50 years we will have an awful lot of negotiating to do and also be faced with the task and expense of setting up new government agencies unless we agree to continue to be regulated by Europe's which would set off the Brexiteers again. In addition, products would still have to be manufactured to EU standards to be sold in the EU.

    Re the election, I am horrified how many Labour voters in the North, especially those in former mining communities, allowed the Tories to get in after how Maggie treated the North in the 80s. I remember donating tins of food at school so that it could be passed on to the families of striking miners, I remember 3.5 million people on the dole thanks to the destruction of traditional industries with no economic plan by the Tories to replace them, I remember Heseltine being put in charge of the managed decline of one of our great cities, Liverpool, I remember sky high interest rates after Black Wednesday. The EU did more to help the deprived communities in the North than any Tory government ever did yet sheeple believed the Mail, Sun and Express etc whose owners had a vested interest in the UK leaving the EU i.e. the prevention of single individuals having too much control of the media (Murdoch must have been crapping himself about that).

    I am an active Labour member and after Milliband quit believed we should have stepped slightly to the left to regain our traditional working class vote, not the huge running jump we took instead in putting Corbyn in charge, backed by his mates at Momentum, the new Militant in my eyes. The amount of far left people that started to turn up at meetings and who were quite disruptive at times started to increase. Luckily, in my CLP, the Blairites remained in control but new rules forced through at conference in my opinion were put in place so that it would be possible for a few well organised people from Momentum to take over a CLP. Now I actually agree with quite a few of Corbyn's policies e.g. renationalisation of the railways, gas, electric and water as I think it is needed for green/environmental reasons and that national infrastructure is too important to be left in the control of big business. However, what the Corbynites forgot is that that you can have all the principles and well-meaning progressive policies you can come up with, but unless you have the leader who can get "Mondeo Man" to buy into it and vote you into power they are worthless. Corbyn is not that leader. Neither is Abbot, McDonnell or any other of the far left cabal in the PLP. Even if labour did have that leader they would be constantly attacked by the predominantly right wing press. What lost Labour seats was not a switch to the Tories, who didn't massively increase their vote in Wigan, Makerfield and Leigh, but voters either refusing to vote for a Corbyn lead party or defecting to the Brexit party. Luckily Lisa Nandy and Yvonne Fovargue survived in Wigan and Makerfield due to having large majorities and the split in the leave vote caused by the Brexit party. Sadly Jo Platt in Leigh lost her seat.

    Where does Labour go now? Well Corbyn has to go and the party get a new more media friendly leader from the centre left. The new leader will also have to get a grip on Momentum in much the same way Kinnock got a grip on Militant (Lansbury, the Momentum leader is a fruitcake). Who are the likely leaders? Well with Burnham being out of the picture for the time being my list of candidates would be Lisa Nandy, Yvette Cooper, Stephen Kinnock, Hilary Benn or Dan Jarvis.
    As another active Labour Party member I agree with large parts of this. It’s hard for any Labour leader to be accepted in the media and to a lesser extent the country. Foot was leader when he was tired and old, and looked it. Kinnock was ‘the Welsh windbag’, though competent enough (apparently) to be a European Commissioner after his leadership stint - sponsored by Major IIRC. Smith died too soon to face too much scrutiny. Blair was just about acceptable with the New Labour project at the start, and became more so, but Brown never was, whilst Miliband was ‘weak’ and allegedly an unreconstructed Marxist in his father’s image. Corbyn is resilient and principled (unlike our new Prime Minister), but probably had far too many flaws to lead, even without media vilification. But he’s probably shifted the centre leftwards, and the LP won more votes under him in 2017 and now than Miliband in 2015.
    For Labour and the left, the election result is terrible, no two ways about it, no possibility of glossing over it. Five more years of Toryism (in whatever form) is highly depressing. But it’s probably not the ‘existential crisis’ some are arguing. The challenges for us are, among a whole raft of other things, achievable radical and regionally transformational policies via a trusted, competent, even technocratic senior team. And, absolutely essentially IMO, the next leader should come from anywhere but London and the South East, and should preferably be from the North.
    Note: I can’t think of any other context than this that I’d agree with a Gooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canterbredve View Post
    As another active Labour Party member I agree with large parts of this. It’s hard for any Labour leader to be accepted in the media and to a lesser extent the country. Foot was leader when he was tired and old, and looked it. Kinnock was ‘the Welsh windbag’, though competent enough (apparently) to be a European Commissioner after his leadership stint - sponsored by Major IIRC. Smith died too soon to face too much scrutiny. Blair was just about acceptable with the New Labour project at the start, and became more so, but Brown never was, whilst Miliband was ‘weak’ and allegedly an unreconstructed Marxist in his father’s image. Corbyn is resilient and principled (unlike our new Prime Minister), but probably had far too many flaws to lead, even without media vilification. But he’s probably shifted the centre leftwards, and the LP won more votes under him in 2017 and now than Miliband in 2015.
    For Labour and the left, the election result is terrible, no two ways about it, no possibility of glossing over it. Five more years of Toryism (in whatever form) is highly depressing. But it’s probably not the ‘existential crisis’ some are arguing. The challenges for us are, among a whole raft of other things, achievable radical and regionally transformational policies via a trusted, competent, even technocratic senior team. And, absolutely essentially IMO, the next leader should come from anywhere but London and the South East, and should preferably be from the North.
    Note: I can’t think of any other context than this that I’d agree with a Gooner.
    I’m not sure that this election cannot be seen as anything other than an existential crisis for the Labour Party, voters and constituencies that have been staunch Labour locks for decades went elsewhere, i don't think that can be overlooked. Labour need to look at why people didn't vote for them, a lot of MPs who lost their seat have laid it at the feet of the leadership, a member of such Lady Nugee has been attributed with saying her constituents are smarter than those of a Northern Labour MP that has lost their seat. I agree, Labour need to get away from having a London centric leader, it should be someone who understands the Northern heartlands, something that seems to have been forgotten, this election seems to show that the north has been taken for granted.

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