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Thread: Keiron Cunningham - How is he?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    The thing is, he grew up with club culture man and boy, so why did he feel he had to change that so much? Ok, that team wasn't the most talented we've ever seen but it was a championship side. I guess it doesn't matter now and I doubt we'll ever find out why. I find it hard to understand why he went against everything he grew up with as a player and turned on those who gave him nothing but love because we didn't like his horrible tactics.
    Agree, from what I can remember he started off OKish then became very dogmatic and didn't listen to other peoples opinions and it went downhill from there, the writing was on the wall when he isolated Lol + Long and was a lone figure in the stands with his headphones on. It was his stubbornness to win as a player which transferred to his coaching disaster, what I couldn't understand as you mentioned how he ignored the best bits of the "coaching manual" from his memory banks courtesy of the Millward and Anderson successes.

    Some people are just poor with man management skills and KC is obviously one of them, I always remember Millward + Anderson saying the same thing that Wello and Longy would make good coaches but no mention about Scully and KC.

    In regards to McManus I think he will probably admit that he had his blinkers on, he always has that advocate of home grown talent and probably thought he could engineer that from a player to coach position.

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    In The South Stand Tabasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Couldn't care less.
    I know we have often disagreed in the past but I’m 100% with you on this.

    As a player, he was outstanding although I’m not sure how much his excellence was magnified by the many, once-in-a-generation players around him. As a coach, however, he was woeful from a supporters viewpoint, seemingly making the team play boring, unsuccessful rugby while showing arrogance in his dealings with the fans. For me his true worth as a coach, and something I cannot forgive, is measured by the fact that his contributions made me seriously consider giving up watching rugby league after 30+ years as a season ticket holder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    I know we have often disagreed in the past but I’m 100% with you on this.

    As a player, he was outstanding although I’m not sure how much his excellence was magnified by the many, once-in-a-generation players around him. As a coach, however, he was woeful from a supporters viewpoint, seemingly making the team play boring, unsuccessful rugby while showing arrogance in his dealings with the fans. For me his true worth as a coach, and something I cannot forgive, is measured by the fact that his contributions made me seriously consider giving up watching rugby league after 30+ years as a season ticket holder.
    Same here, stoped my season ticket after 30+years after the 5 year deal was up, I think i went to two games after that -even after Hollbrock took over seriously wasn't going to go any more. But bought a season ticket 2 weeks before the start of Hollbrock's first full season, and now the passion is well and truly back.

    I can't rely forgive that, I almost turned away from the game i love because of his tenure as head coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    I know we have often disagreed in the past but I’m 100% with you on this.

    As a player, he was outstanding although I’m not sure how much his excellence was magnified by the many, once-in-a-generation players around him. As a coach, however, he was woeful from a supporters viewpoint, seemingly making the team play boring, unsuccessful rugby while showing arrogance in his dealings with the fans. For me his true worth as a coach, and something I cannot forgive, is measured by the fact that his contributions made me seriously consider giving up watching rugby league after 30+ years as a season ticket holder.
    Well, you echoing my thoughts saved me writing a response.

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    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    I still care about how he is. He got it wrong coaching wise but he’s not the first person to have a go at a career and find out, in the end, that it’s not for them. His disengagement with the fans is possibly down to his mental state and desperation when things were going wrong. I would think many of us have had stressy periods at work and behaved out of character towards others in the middle of it all. He hasn’t murdered anyone, he just had a go at something that he wasn’t up to, probably out of sheer love for the club and town as much as anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Same here, stoped my season ticket after 30+years after the 5 year deal was up, I think i went to two games after that -even after Hollbrock took over seriously wasn't going to go any more. But bought a season ticket 2 weeks before the start of Hollbrock's first full season, and now the passion is well and truly back.

    I can't rely forgive that, I almost turned away from the game i love because of his tenure as head coach.
    And that is the legacy of Cunningham as a coach, he made people who had been watching for years not want to go anymore, utterly unforgivable, i go with my Grandad, who has been going since he was a boy, hes 80 now, and a couple of weeks before Cunningham was sacked he turned to me and said ‘i dont want to watch this anymore, it doesnt feel like the club i have watched for my life, he’s ruined it.’ I remember it because he actually had tears in his eyes he was that upset, we both had already said we were not keeping our season tickets if things didn't change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    I still care about how he is. He got it wrong coaching wise but he’s not the first person to have a go at a career and find out, in the end, that it’s not for them. His disengagement with the fans is possibly down to his mental state and desperation when things were going wrong. I would think many of us have had stressy periods at work and behaved out of character towards others in the middle of it all. He hasn’t murdered anyone, he just had a go at something that he wasn’t up to, probably out of sheer love for the club and town as much as anything
    Yeah this sums up my thoughts as well. I know this thread has/will turn into an evaluation of his coaching career but to answer the OP, I’m glad to know he’s doing OK outside of rugby. He was the finest player I’ve seen at Saints, was a pleasure to watch him every week. What he did or didn’t do as a coach is totally separate for me.
    Last edited by Tez the Saint; 30th October 2019 at 12:54.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I hope so because as you rightly say he genuinely was one of the very best but what ••••es me off is that he didn't have a huge job to do. We were champions, he was adored by the fans, he'd been involved previously and he knew what was expected, instead he took to walking around like a fat rapper with his silly headphones, signing utter rubbish, publicly slating young players while refusing to drop under performing senior players etc. He set the club back and only got away with it for so long because of his status as a player, for me that's hard to forgive and just because things are good again doesn't mean we should forget.
    I think it's easy to underestimate what a difficult job it is to coach a team of top players at a club that has a tradition of success. If it gets off to a bad start the pressure is onto you quickly.

    Personally I think the sad thing about the whole affair was that he was just way out of his depth in the job. That put him under a lot of pressure and he unfortunately responded to that pressure by being defensive when faced with criticism, which further alienated the fanbase. He got the job wrong, and I suspect the fact that he is no longer working in the game suggests that he probably realises that now.

    Not worth holding a grudge over, IMO. I'm really pleased to hear that he still has some connections with the club.
    Last edited by Dux; 30th October 2019 at 13:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I think it's easy to underestimate what a difficult job it is to coach a team of top players at a club the has a tradition of success. If it gets off to a bad start the pressure is onto you quickly.

    Personally I think the sad thing about the whole affair was that he was just way out of his depth in the job. That put him under a lot of pressure and he unfortunately responded to that pressure by being defensive when faced with criticism, which further alienated the fanbase. He got the job wrong, and I suspect the fact that he is no longer working in the game suggests that he probably realises that now.

    Not worth holding a grudge over, IMO. I'm really pleased to hear that he still has some connections with the club.
    I agree with a lot of what you have written, but he did not respond to criticism and questioning of his tactics by being defensive. He responded by showing contempt to the fans that had deservedly worshipped him as a player, and were turning up week in week out to watch and support their team.

    This was a guy who came in as a hero, and seemed to have everything on a plate in terms of his knowledge of the club, the infrastructure behind it, and, inheriting a GF winning team.

    He played the most dire rugby I have seen at Saints, and managed to alienate fans that had been following them for years. A great player -yes undoubtedly, any respect for him-No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you have written, but he did not respond to criticism and questioning of his tactics by being defensive. He responded by showing contempt to the fans that had deservedly worshipped him as a player, and were turning up week in week out to watch and support their team.

    This was a guy who came in as a hero, and seemed to have everything on a plate in terms of his knowledge of the club, the infrastructure behind it, and, inheriting a GF winning team.

    He played the most dire rugby I have seen at Saints, and managed to alienate fans that had been following them for years. A great player -yes undoubtedly, any respect for him-No.
    You've pretty much put in to words how I feel on the subject mate. Despite being in a great position, successful team, adored by fans, not only did he make us play awful rugby but (and this is the kicker for me) he utterly disrespected folk who shelled out hard earned cash to watch both him and then the team he coached. He obviously didn't "get" the passion and emotional investment supporters have for their team. Or worse, he did and just didn't care. Great player, awful coach and from what he showed fans, a pretty awful person, although I'm sure people who know him better will have a different viewpoint.

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    As a player, arguably the greatest to ever wear the red vee, as a coach he is the worst we've had in the superleague era but as has been mentioned before it shouldn't be compared to his playing career.

    I've met him twice and both times very briefly. He was with Leon Pryce the first time at windle island tesco and was sat in his car, I walked passed and just waved to him and he looked at me like I was a nobody. I was 19 at the time and though I shrugged it off, inside I was genuinely gutted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    What higher praise can I give the man as a player other than to say I dreaded it every time he got the ball against us, no matter how little time was left on the clock.
    As a coach I just wanted him to stay with you forever.
    On a side issue, was he responsible for your signings or was he forced into them by budget constraints? Possibly one of his biggest mistakes though was “overselling “ some 3rd rate players as world class, how we laughed.
    It's always interesting to get a perspective from outside our own fanbase, and I'm not surprised by what you say. Thanks.
    IMO budget constraints (following the stadium build) were always part of the problem, including the appointment of KC himself from within, rather than 'buying' in someone with more experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    As a player, arguably the greatest to ever wear the red vee, as a coach he is the worst we've had in the superleague era but as has been mentioned before it shouldn't be compared to his playing career.

    I've met him twice and both times very briefly. He was with Leon Pryce the first time at windle island tesco and was sat in his car, I walked passed and just waved to him and he looked at me like I was a nobody. I was 19 at the time and though I shrugged it off, inside I was genuinely gutted.
    I didn't want to say anything but now you've mentioned it, I've also met him , the first time I was still at school and he was ok, the second time at one his testimonial do's and thought he was a bit strange for want of a better word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    As a player, arguably the greatest to ever wear the red vee, as a coach he is the worst we've had in the superleague era but as has been mentioned before it shouldn't be compared to his playing career.

    I've met him twice and both times very briefly. He was with Leon Pryce the first time at windle island tesco and was sat in his car, I walked passed and just waved to him and he looked at me like I was a nobody. I was 19 at the time and though I shrugged it off, inside I was genuinely gutted.
    I stood watching the saints coach arrive for CC final we were all applauding them, and all the players stood by the windows waving to the fans, except Cunningham, he couldn’t even turn his head to acknowledge them. The arrogance he showed as a coach had been there a while.

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    As well as the style of rugby and his unbelievable and embarrassing statements to the press, his era will be remembered as the one where we made some of the worst signings ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    It's always interesting to get a perspective from outside our own fanbase, and I'm not surprised by what you say. Thanks.
    IMO budget constraints (following the stadium build) were always part of the problem, including the appointment of KC himself from within, rather than 'buying' in someone with more experience.
    Perhaps it influenced the choice of appointing Cunningham as coach, but the difference would only be a small sum of money.

    On the wider issue of budget constraints, didn't we still spend up the Cap (or near as dammit) each year? The problem was more a combination of some poor recruitment choices, some rank bad luck, and a couple of gambles not paying off. Remember also that Peyroux was woeful under Cunningham (who'd built him up to be a superstar), but under Holbrook developed into a good quality SR and integral part of the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    As well as the style of rugby and his unbelievable and embarrassing statements to the press, his era will be remembered as the one where we made some of the worst signings ever.
    and possibly veering us away from appointing UK coaches for a long time to come

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I stood watching the saints coach arrive for CC final we were all applauding them, and all the players stood by the windows waving to the fans, except Cunningham, he couldn’t even turn his head to acknowledge them. The arrogance he showed as a coach had been there a while.
    I don’t mind that really. I read a similar thing about Roy Keane recently. I believe he was one of the anxious types before games, didn’t he throw up in the changing rooms before games every week? I’d rather players waved after the game with a winners medal round their neck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I think it's easy to underestimate what a difficult job it is to coach a team of top players at a club that has a tradition of success. If it gets off to a bad start the pressure is onto you quickly.

    Personally I think the sad thing about the whole affair was that he was just way out of his depth in the job. That put him under a lot of pressure and he unfortunately responded to that pressure by being defensive when faced with criticism, which further alienated the fanbase. He got the job wrong, and I suspect the fact that he is no longer working in the game suggests that he probably realises that now.

    Not worth holding a grudge over, IMO. I'm really pleased to hear that he still has some connections with the club.
    Again I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Perhaps it influenced the choice of appointing Cunningham as coach, but the difference would only be a small sum of money.

    On the wider issue of budget constraints, didn't we still spend up the Cap (or near as dammit) each year? The problem was more a combination of some poor recruitment choices, some rank bad luck, and a couple of gambles not paying off. Remember also that Peyroux was woeful under Cunningham (who'd built him up to be a superstar), but under Holbrook developed into a good quality SR and integral part of the team.
    It's just a gut feeling I have about that period of time just after the stadium build (and perhaps during it?) when we seemed to be recruiting from within rather than spending money searching further afield. There were also a couple of 'bargain basement' signings, so we may have been up to the cap but I do feel that we carried out our recruitment on the cheap.
    I have another theory about recruitment from within but, as I've said before, I'm not going to post that on here as it's a little contentious!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybs View Post
    Well we all know he has a statue! and however good he was on the pitch! this was one big mistake!
    Melt it down.

    You could probably create a new Roby and Holbrook one out of it and still have change.

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    There are a lot of ex great players who failed as coaches. There are indeed worse coaches now than K.C. still in a job. It is a very tough job at Saint's because we expect success at the highest level and the game played in a certain manner. Despite a top class team we have a new coach coming in so let us hope we continue as we play as we have the last couple of years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert80 View Post
    There are a lot of ex great players who failed as coaches. There are indeed worse coaches now than K.C. still in a job. It is a very tough job at Saint's because we expect success at the highest level and the game played in a certain manner. Despite a top class team we have a new coach coming in so let us hope we continue as we play as we have the last couple of years.
    Something Cunningham was abundantly aware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Mander View Post
    Melt it down.

    You could probably create a new Roby and Holbrook one out of it and still have change.
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