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Thread: Grand Final tickets

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think the type of rugby we played and the lack of atmosphere must hav cost us lots of fans. But the way we have played this year, why are they not coming back. IMO this year has been the best to watch since 2005/6.
    Maybe they are too far gone to come back, the club had an air of lack of engagement with the fans prior to Holbrook coming in, that has come back but i guess those who stopped watching found something else. I stopped watching for a while in the late 00s due to 1 thing or another, i have been back watching for a while now, maybe those who stopped will come back, but we need to put on a product that entices them back, like we have under Holbrook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Yeah all good and fair points.
    It probably is regards Wembley. It's just too big. Cardiff would be a much better option.

    I prefer the top 5 but it can mean you forking out for more games in terms of the play off structure
    I agree top five is probably the best play off system, I just hope we can do better selling the game to spectators
    I love Cardiff, great location, but also realise the strategic importance of Wembley, it's additional exposure in the capital and national stadium, it would be admitting defeat to leave, something we may consider infuture but I think if we can guarantee at least 60k it's worth persevering, after all would we get much of an increase in gate at any other venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    As I've stated on another thread,

    Last 3 years at KR
    2008 - 10,099
    2009 - 10,972
    2010 - 10,744

    So, our average now is about 800 over what it was in the last couple of seasons at KR. The club is obviously taking in alot more money from the new stadium, but crowds aren't that much higher than at KR after the initial spike when we moved in 2012 when we getting 13,000+ quite a lot in the first half of that season.

    I think our choice of coaches really harmed us. Simmons then Cunningham were the worst coaches in terms of style for attracting lost fans and new fans to our new ground. Imagine if we'd have Holbrook or Millward in 2012, we'd have kept alot of those new or lapsed fans, but instead they walked away because the product on the field was garbage. A huge missed opportunity for us.
    I thought the increase was better than that, it's a shame. I remember our business plan looking at 13k plus as an average so yes we have fallen short of our target

    Do you have figures for the whole of SL?

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    Quote Originally Posted by benward View Post
    73,200 at the recent Man Utd vs Arsenal Game so i think your correct there.

    So rough updated figures

    Capacity 73,200

    4,138 left on sale on super league site as of tuesday morning
    3,500 not on sale alex ferguson top tier
    2,500 big screen

    So around 63,00 sold maybe?
    You will probably find that they show some seats as sold that aren’t actually sold, they’ll sell every other row in an area for example

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    Quote Originally Posted by benward View Post
    73,200 at the recent Man Utd vs Arsenal Game so i think your correct there.

    So rough updated figures

    Capacity 73,200

    4,138 left on sale on super league site as of tuesday morning
    3,500 not on sale alex ferguson top tier
    2,500 big screen

    So around 63,00 sold maybe?
    I don't think Saints or Salford have sold out, so a lot of the blocks showing as sold out on the RFLs site, are in fact available through the clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Maybe they are too far gone to come back, the club had an air of lack of engagement with the fans prior to Holbrook coming in, that has come back but i guess those who stopped watching found something else. I stopped watching for a while in the late 00s due to 1 thing or another, i have been back watching for a while now, maybe those who stopped will come back, but we need to put on a product that entices them back, like we have under Holbrook.
    I think to say "the club had an air of lack of engagement" is a real understatement, under KC it was disgraceful. As you say all that changed in the past couple of years (how fast as that gone). How much of the change is directly attributable to Holbrook I don't know, but he has certainly played his part on and off the field. One thing is for sure he has to be credited for the way we play and the obvious team spirit in the camp. I dread the thought of the days when JW was captain under KC and seeing everyone stood under the posts when we conceded, and no one speaking to each other. Here's hoping Woolf can continue where JH has left off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think to say "the club had an air of lack of engagement" is a real understatement, under KC it was disgraceful. As you say all that changed in the past couple of years (how fast as that gone). How much of the change is directly attributable to Holbrook I don't know, but he has certainly played his part on and off the field. One thing is for sure he has to be credited for the way we play and the obvious team spirit in the camp. I dread the thought of the days when JW was captain under KC and seeing everyone stood under the posts when we conceded, and no one speaking to each other. Here's hoping Woolf can continue where JH has left off.
    Agree completely, it was aimed at the period before KC as well, he was the one who did the most damage to engagement but it had a feeling that things were strained before that, the style of rugby didnt help though. It almost changed overnight for me as soon as KC was sacked it felt better, Holbrook just took the opportunity to improve it and ran with it, i think fans are happier now than at anytime since we moved to the TWS. As you say about JW under KC he didnt show any leadership when we needed it after we conceded, it was a gripe i had about him as captain, Roby is so much better at it and was the logical choice to replace Wellens as captain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think the type of rugby we played and the lack of atmosphere must hav cost us lots of fans. But the way we have played this year, why are they not coming back. IMO this year has been the best to watch since 2005/6.
    I don't think just having a good season or changing the style of play over a short period makes a huge difference to stuff like this. They make a difference but I think you need to keep doing it for several years to notice a real difference, up or down, much like Wigan are now realising that years of boring RL have driven 3-4,000 away to the extent that they now never turn up except for when they play Saints.

    I think outside forces are bigger, much like moving to a new ground in 2012. That was such a big change, with a new ground with thousands more seats than KR, better facilities, slap bang next to the town centre etc. People who hadn't been for years and people who had never been went to the games early on that season. I had members of my family go to the first couple of games and they'd never set foot inside KR, and I imagine lots of others know people who 'gave it another go' or decided to try it out for the first time. But the RL on offer didn't keep them around, and once those people said no to going to the game a few times in 2012 or 2013 it was back to normal and they were lost to the club again for the long term.

    Saints haven't only got 11-12,000 fans, obviously. I'd reckon at least 50,000 people in St Helens would claim to be proper fans of the club. Half of them have never been to a game or only a small amount, or used to go then stopped going for whatever reason. For those people going to the game isn't part of their lifestyle or they stopped going for so long that they got it out of their system. It's hard to change weekly habits unless something big comes along to make them think twice. The new ground will have done that to some of those people, and indeed it did get some of them through the turnstiles in 2012, but it didn't last.

    Look at the crowds we got for our games in the first half of 2012 at LP, some of them under Simmons as well
    15547 - Salford (first league game at LP)
    13108 - Catalans
    14875 - Hull
    15199 - Leeds
    17980 - Wigan (Good Friday, as per every GF since)
    14253 - Widnes

    Even when there were hardly any away fans we were pulling in 13k. Now, this included all season ticket holders of course, and some didn't show up every week, but somewhere between 13-15,000 people either bought season tickets or turned up to LP to watch us regularly in 2012. If they could make that financial decision in 2012 they could make it again in 2013 if they liked what they saw.

    Fast forward to 2013, and see the crowds for the first few games.
    12003 - Huddersfield
    11257 - Hull
    12228 - Leeds

    The differences are quite big. 3500 less watched us open the 2013 season at home compared to that first ever game in 2012. 3500 less watched us play Hull early on in 2013 compared to almost the exact same time in 2012, and likewise about 3000 less watched us play Leeds in 2013 compared to almost the exact same time as 2012.

    Those 3,000 or so people made a choice to give it a go in 2012, and they barely lasted a season. That can't have been down to the ground not being easy to get to, or because the views and the seats weren't up to scratch, etc. It was because the RL on show wasn't worth the money and wasn't worth the change in lifestyle and habits that going to the game regularly involves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I don't think just having a good season or changing the style of play over a short period makes a huge difference to stuff like this. They make a difference but I think you need to keep doing it for several years to notice a real difference, up or down, much like Wigan are now realising that years of boring RL have driven 3-4,000 away to the extent that they now never turn up except for when they play Saints.

    I think outside forces are bigger, much like moving to a new ground in 2012. That was such a big change, with a new ground with thousands more seats than KR, better facilities, slap bang next to the town centre etc. People who hadn't been for years and people who had never been went to the games early on that season. I had members of my family go to the first couple of games and they'd never set foot inside KR, and I imagine lots of others know people who 'gave it another go' or decided to try it out for the first time. But the RL on offer didn't keep them around, and once those people said no to going to the game a few times in 2012 or 2013 it was back to normal and they were lost to the club again for the long term.

    Saints haven't only got 11-12,000 fans, obviously. I'd reckon at least 50,000 people in St Helens would claim to be proper fans of the club. Half of them have never been to a game or only a small amount, or used to go then stopped going for whatever reason. For those people going to the game isn't part of their lifestyle or they stopped going for so long that they got it out of their system. It's hard to change weekly habits unless something big comes along to make them think twice. The new ground will have done that to some of those people, and indeed it did get some of them through the turnstiles in 2012, but it didn't last.

    Look at the crowds we got for our games in the first half of 2012 at LP, some of them under Simmons as well
    15547 - Salford (first league game at LP)
    13108 - Catalans
    14875 - Hull
    15199 - Leeds
    17980 - Wigan (Good Friday, as per every GF since)
    14253 - Widnes

    Even when there were hardly any away fans we were pulling in 13k. Now, this included all season ticket holders of course, and some didn't show up every week, but somewhere between 13-15,000 people either bought season tickets or turned up to LP to watch us regularly in 2012. If they could make that financial decision in 2012 they could make it again in 2013 if they liked what they saw.

    Fast forward to 2013, and see the crowds for the first few games.
    12003 - Huddersfield
    11257 - Hull
    12228 - Leeds

    The differences are quite big. 3500 less watched us open the 2013 season at home compared to that first ever game in 2012. 3500 less watched us play Hull early on in 2013 compared to almost the exact same time in 2012, and likewise about 3000 less watched us play Leeds in 2013 compared to almost the exact same time as 2012.

    Those 3,000 or so people made a choice to give it a go in 2012, and they barely lasted a season. That can't have been down to the ground not being easy to get to, or because the views and the seats weren't up to scratch, etc. It was because the RL on show wasn't worth the money and wasn't worth the change in lifestyle and habits that going to the game regularly involves.
    Grey77, great analysis, i do think it does come down to a simple combination of standard of rugby/style of play people want to be entertained and atmosphere, at times TWS has almost no atmosphere to it, we need to create a buzz around the place, i do think it has been better at time this year though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I don't think just having a good season or changing the style of play over a short period makes a huge difference to stuff like this. They make a difference but I think you need to keep doing it for several years to notice a real difference, up or down, much like Wigan are now realising that years of boring RL have driven 3-4,000 away to the extent that they now never turn up except for when they play Saints.

    I think outside forces are bigger, much like moving to a new ground in 2012. That was such a big change, with a new ground with thousands more seats than KR, better facilities, slap bang next to the town centre etc. People who hadn't been for years and people who had never been went to the games early on that season. I had members of my family go to the first couple of games and they'd never set foot inside KR, and I imagine lots of others know people who 'gave it another go' or decided to try it out for the first time. But the RL on offer didn't keep them around, and once those people said no to going to the game a few times in 2012 or 2013 it was back to normal and they were lost to the club again for the long term.

    Saints haven't only got 11-12,000 fans, obviously. I'd reckon at least 50,000 people in St Helens would claim to be proper fans of the club. Half of them have never been to a game or only a small amount, or used to go then stopped going for whatever reason. For those people going to the game isn't part of their lifestyle or they stopped going for so long that they got it out of their system. It's hard to change weekly habits unless something big comes along to make them think twice. The new ground will have done that to some of those people, and indeed it did get some of them through the turnstiles in 2012, but it didn't last.

    Look at the crowds we got for our games in the first half of 2012 at LP, some of them under Simmons as well
    15547 - Salford (first league game at LP)
    13108 - Catalans
    14875 - Hull
    15199 - Leeds
    17980 - Wigan (Good Friday, as per every GF since)
    14253 - Widnes

    Even when there were hardly any away fans we were pulling in 13k. Now, this included all season ticket holders of course, and some didn't show up every week, but somewhere between 13-15,000 people either bought season tickets or turned up to LP to watch us regularly in 2012. If they could make that financial decision in 2012 they could make it again in 2013 if they liked what they saw.

    Fast forward to 2013, and see the crowds for the first few games.
    12003 - Huddersfield
    11257 - Hull
    12228 - Leeds

    The differences are quite big. 3500 less watched us open the 2013 season at home compared to that first ever game in 2012. 3500 less watched us play Hull early on in 2013 compared to almost the exact same time in 2012, and likewise about 3000 less watched us play Leeds in 2013 compared to almost the exact same time as 2012.

    Those 3,000 or so people made a choice to give it a go in 2012, and they barely lasted a season. That can't have been down to the ground not being easy to get to, or because the views and the seats weren't up to scratch, etc. It was because the RL on show wasn't worth the money and wasn't worth the change in lifestyle and habits that going to the game regularly involves.
    Much more thought and knowledge gone into this than my off the cuff remarks.

    Interesting that you think 50k class themselves as proper supporters but don't go Do you see a way to enthuse some of those people to get back to those 2012 figures, or anything the club should be doing to increase current numbers?
    Last edited by Belgian Saint; 8th October 2019 at 17:16. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    A much more thought and knowledge gone into this than my off the cuff remarks.

    Interesting that you think 50k class themselves as proper supporters but don't go Do you see a way to enthuse some of those people to get back to those 2012 figures, or anything the club should be doing to increase current numbers?
    I know loads who turn up for finals & don't attend league/cup/play off games be that home or away.

    Not sure I could do that me. I've been toying with the idea of packing it in, but I couldn't then turn up at a final. I don't think that's indicative of a true supporter.

    I always think that you earn your right to enjoy the finals when you've been as much as you can all season.

    I'd feel like I was cheating the club a bit

    P.s. I know it's really hard for a lot of people to attend

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I know loads who turn up for finals & don't attend league/cup/play off games be that home or away.

    Not sure I could do that me. I've been toying with the idea of packing it in, but I couldn't then turn up at a final. I don't think that's indicative of a true supporter.

    I always think that you earn your right to enjoy the finals when you've been as much as you can all season.

    I'd feel like I was cheating the club a bit

    P.s. I know it's really hard for a lot of people to attend
    I stoped going after 1997 (bar the odd game ) if Saintd hadn't moved I doubt if I would have started going again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I know loads who turn up for finals & don't attend league/cup/play off games be that home or away.

    Not sure I could do that me. I've been toying with the idea of packing it in, but I couldn't then turn up at a final. I don't think that's indicative of a true supporter.

    I always think that you earn your right to enjoy the finals when you've been as much as you can all season.

    I'd feel like I was cheating the club a bit

    P.s. I know it's really hard for a lot of people to attend
    I can understand why more people would turn up for a final, as most of the part time watchers during the season will all turn up for that game. Únless someone has financial,work or other restraints, I'm not sure I understand people picking and choosing games during the season. For me you are either a supporter or not. I want to see them every game no matter who they are playing. Because of location I obviously don't get to every game but anytime I can I do attend. I come from a family of season ticket holders that wouldn't dream of missing a game.

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    1,300 tickets sold on super league site yesteday (alot been upper tier of salford end big sales)

    wednesday morning 2,815 - left on sale

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    Quote Originally Posted by benward View Post
    1,300 tickets sold on super league site yesteday (alot been upper tier of salford end big sales)

    wednesday morning 2,815 - left on sale
    I've got to ask how do you know the numbers?
    Are you counting individual seats?

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    In view of all this number crunching, will it be a better game if more people attend or does it not really matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    In view of all this number crunching, will it be a better game if more people attend or does it not really matter?
    I think people are only looking at the attendence because Salford are playing and they fear large gaps will make the game look small time.

    However, last years final attendance was not stellar by recent measures.

    The quality of the game will not be impacted by the crowd and most outsiders won't be counting empty seats. Especially if they are out of sight.

    But attendances for right or wrong are seen as a measure of the relative health of the sport.

    But for those really interested in the health of the sport, then measures like the number of schools and amateur clubs and players give a longer view of the sports health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    I've got to ask how do you know the numbers?
    Are you counting individual seats?
    If you click over a block it tells you how many are left.

    Quite easy to do as 85% of blocks are soldout

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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    I think people are only looking at the attendence because Salford are playing and they fear large gaps will make the game look small time.
    It's being reported Salford have sold up to early this morning 7,000 tickets and have now been allocated more tickets! I just hope that some of these new fans for Salford now become regular supporters, last Friday night their supporters were superb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I think outside forces are bigger, much like moving to a new ground in 2012. That was such a big change, with a new ground with thousands more seats than KR, better facilities, slap bang next to the town centre etc. People who hadn't been for years and people who had never been went to the games early on that season. I had members of my family go to the first couple of games and they'd never set foot inside KR, and I imagine lots of others know people who 'gave it another go' or decided to try it out for the first time. But the RL on offer didn't keep them around, and once those people said no to going to the game a few times in 2012 or 2013 it was back to normal and they were lost to the club again for the long term.

    With hindsight, the move was tragic timing in terms of coaching and team performance. Had we had the edge-of-the-seat craziness of the Millward teams, or the slick professionalism of the Anderson era, or even the good all-round rugby of Holbrook's time, then we'd have retained more fans from that initial boost period.

    We've been unlucky, though. I don't think anyone envisaged Potter being so negative and dour both on the field and off, coupled with the RL authorities continuing to rein back on quick PTB's, the exploitation of which had been a substantial part of our attacking tactics to get opposition defences on the back foot, which allowed our strike players to excel. Simmons afterwards was a gamble that didn't pay off, and I think Brown was a reaction to the rise of the wrestling in the game and deciding we needed to be more cynical, as the rise of the piescum and Huddersfield was largely on the back of them being the worst wrestling offenders. Cunningham actually started off pretty well - until the mauling by the Rabbitohs, we'd played some good, open rugby, but he quickly went into his shell and dragged the team with him.

    Mistakes were obviously made, and player recruitment was very patchy for a good few years (although again, we had some awful luck). Perhaps McManus reasoned that the stadium alone would be enough to bring additional fans in and keep them coming. But a lot of mates who had been regulars since the 80's drifted away during that time - a few had taken up the 3-year offer but by the end were skipping more games than going.

    The upshot is that it's now a slow grind (no! not the grind!) to claw back the attendance ground we lost in that 2009-2017 period, particularly the wasted opportunity from 2012-2017.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybs View Post
    It's being reported Salford have sold up to early this morning 7,000 tickets and have now been allocated more tickets! I just hope that some of these new fans for Salford now become regular supporters, last Friday night their supporters were superb.
    The way they have played the past few weeks they deserve it; but with the loss of several players for next season, can they follow up on this year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    With hindsight, the move was tragic timing in terms of coaching and team performance. Had we had the edge-of-the-seat craziness of the Millward teams, or the slick professionalism of the Anderson era, or even the good all-round rugby of Holbrook's time, then we'd have retained more fans from that initial boost period.

    We've been unlucky, though. I don't think anyone envisaged Potter being so negative and dour both on the field and off, coupled with the RL authorities continuing to rein back on quick PTB's, the exploitation of which had been a substantial part of our attacking tactics to get opposition defences on the back foot, which allowed our strike players to excel. Simmons afterwards was a gamble that didn't pay off, and I think Brown was a reaction to the rise of the wrestling in the game and deciding we needed to be more cynical, as the rise of the piescum and Huddersfield was largely on the back of them being the worst wrestling offenders. Cunningham actually started off pretty well - until the mauling by the Rabbitohs, we'd played some good, open rugby, but he quickly went into his shell and dragged the team with him.

    Mistakes were obviously made, and player recruitment was very patchy for a good few years (although again, we had some awful luck). Perhaps McManus reasoned that the stadium alone would be enough to bring additional fans in and keep them coming. But a lot of mates who had been regulars since the 80's drifted away during that time - a few had taken up the 3-year offer but by the end were skipping more games than going.

    The upshot is that it's now a slow grind (no! not the grind!) to claw back the attendance ground we lost in that 2009-2017 period, particularly the wasted opportunity from 2012-2017.
    The real problem for me was the Cunningham era, everything was there for him, inheriting a league winning side, making some signings that seemed good on paper, and the fact he was taking over his hometown club where he was adored, it could have brought people back to the club, even if out of a sense of nostalgia. He then ruined it by playing a brand of rugby that was boring, negative and nothing like the best rugby coaches like Millward and Anderson had him playing, once he messed that up he then seemed to make it his mission to alienate then fans who were not a fan of the style of play and wanted the more expansive game that he was coached to play, we were basically told if you do not like the style of play to either shut up or stop going, so people did.

    The good thing about Holbrook is that he has allowed the team to build a real attacking edge whilst maintaining a good defensive discipline, its a lot like the Anderson era in that respectz

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    Does anyone actually know what our allocation was? Salford put what they’ve sold but not a word from saints

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    I think / know because I see them that a lot of people go to the game to watch but they also just sit as if they were at home watching , they never show any kind of emotion are recognition of good or bad play , now that isn't adding to excitement . I look at them and think well they would get that kind of pleasure at home if the game was on Tv.

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    Interesting graphic on Twitter from Super League showing the availability in each area. Seems Salford's end is selling better than our's. Whether that's the neutrals ganging up on us or Salford genuinely outselling us, I'm not sure. But it looks good in terms of the overall sales, I don't think we're on for a bad crowd.

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    I’ve seen that on FB in my opinion it’s bad how we are being outnumbered by Salford fans

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