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Thread: Justin Holbrook

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Why is it you struggle to accept reality and try to spin everything? It comes across as some sort of personal mission which I think is misplaced. Almost like that scene in Blackadder goes Forth... ‘A staunch refusal to look facts in the face will see us through.’ You say lazy accusations thrown at the RFL mean people don’t take accountability, but where the RFL are concerned they have’nt for years.
    Just taking a handful of your points:

    1. Commercial profile of the sport. It wasn’t so long ago Big Mac expressed one of the greatest dangers to RL is its struggles to attract business partners who can generate the revenues needed across all levels of the sport. Your point on ‘sponsorship’ (Id recommend consigning that term to the last millennium) is actually an indictment of the sports leadership because it infers that those people have failed to make the sport an attractive commercial proposition to partners we need to improve both the perception and the balance sheet.

    At one time RL had an unspectacular but solid portfolio of partners at club and ‘governing’ level but far from this improving it appears to have gotten worse. Off the back of the disastrous Stobart deal, which should be an individual example of how not to manage a sport, the sport can only attract the ‘taboo’ partners like alcohol, betting and tobacco or ‘bargain basement’ like Dacia, Mushy Peas etc. Id doubt these sports generate significant income needed to grow the sport not create the impression of a vibrant, fashionable sport. Whether its a tough job to improve this situation matters little. Its been the responsibility of the RFL in the past to do just this and they failed so spectacularly that the SuperLeague clubs recently chose to manage their own commercial interests, they lacked so much confidence in the sports leadership that they effectively said enough is enough. Whether Robert Elstone delivers the improvement needed remains to be seen. Its going to take time to repair the damage IMO.

    2. Rule changes. Though I accept the shot clock is a step forward its been obvious to many that its been needed for years. The simple fact theres been so many rule changes (and ones coincidentally off the field as well) indicates a sport lacking confidence in its product. To me a lot of this relentless change has alienated the sports followers, especially where play offs are concerned which continue to be a failure. Over this weekend, at the point ‘it matters,’ the fans one of those clubs were so underwhelmed they rewarded their club with its lowest crowd of the season.

    The rule changes and innovations often appear as ill conceived gimmicks; almost as if those brokering the TV deals either use them as a desperation selling point or worse, accept them when put forward by our broadcasters.

    For me its panic stations in RL at the moment and Im reluctant to pretend problems donÂ’t exist or can be swept away by spirious positivity because they cant. People calling out failure isnt negative, in fact it’s absolutely crucial to influence change in the right direction.
    So SL went alone due to lack of confidence in the RFL only? Nothing to do with power and control. Plenty of people have already turned on the SL and Robert Elstone, amazing isn't it, different organisation, different people same result, go figure

    Rule changes, you've decided that the low crowd at the play offs is due to rule changes? Are you serious? How does it explain other rounds and good attendances, they haven't changed the rules for those games?
    Let's be serious now, there's not refusal that things shouldnt be better, but simply looking for scapegoats will not address the problems. Rule changes is a good example, if there have been too many there's nothing that can be done now, as further changes will reinforce the message of too many!
    If this is the reason for low attendances then there's nothing that can be done, unless you admit that's not the reason and things can improve which is my position

    Not jumping on the band wagon and blaming the RFL for everything, or slating some refs continuously isn't saying things couldn't be better or mistakes haven't been made, it's challenging the misguided view of some fans when refusing to deal with the real issue and lazily blaming the first thing they think of.

    The facts are we are mainly a northern sport, there's a perception across the UK we are entirely a northern sport, we have little money as a sport and little bargaining power. Decisions are often made through a vote so there is shared responsibility with clubs.
    Many people don't go to games and criticise attendances
    Many people watch the game waiting for the ref to make an error so they can point it out to somehow look clever
    Many people blame the RFL because they cannot think of any other reason we are not as big as football
    Many people won't accept the game is different now to the start of SL
    I could go on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I agree, a lot of clubs do little to help themselves and yes some of the recent rule have improved the game. I also wasn't blaming every failing in British RL on the RFL so don't insinuate I did.
    I know you won't hear a bad word about them but that doesn't mean you're right and it doesn't mean others can't have a differing view from you. Frankly, if you think everything is rosy you're burying your head in the sand.
    I would say I'm the opposite of that.

    I believe those blaming refs and the RFL for everything are burying their heads, it's saves them addressing the real issues

    I want the real problems to be addressed and look for solutions to improve the sport, so I believe I'm the one with my head up whilst others bury theirs

    If you listen and see the work done in Newcastle and what Andy Macy wanted to do that is probably the closest to my own views

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Rule changes, you've decided that the low crowd at the play offs is due to rule changes? Are you serious? How does it explain other rounds and good attendances, they haven't changed the rules for those games?
    Let's be serious now, there's not refusal that things shouldnt be better, but simply looking for scapegoats will not address the problems. Rule changes is a good example, if there have been too many there's nothing that can be done now, as further changes will reinforce the message of too many!
    If this is the reason for low attendances then there's nothing that can be done, unless you admit that's not the reason and things can improve which is my position
    Nice try but you appear to have missed my point which was rule changes off as well as in the field (reffered to in my original post as ‘ones coincidentally off the field as well...’).

    facts are we are mainly a northern sport, there's a perception across the UK we are entirely a northern sport, we have little money as a sport and little bargaining power. Decisions are often made through a vote so there is shared responsibility with clubs.
    So basically the growth of the sport this side of the millennium appears to have stalled. I couldn’t imagine who have the mandate to develop and manage this growth.

    Many people don't go to games and criticise attendances
    Many people watch the game waiting for the ref to make an error so they can point it out to somehow look clever
    Many people blame the RFL because they cannot think of any other reason we are not as big as football
    Many people won't accept the game is different now to the start of SL
    I could go on
    Do they or is that just a feeling of yours?
    Can I try?
    Many people are angry in years of stagnation and bad decisions. Many people are angry that the corporate governance of the RFL resembles Enron.
    Do you seriously look at the likes of Ralph Rimmer and think Im confident in our leadership??

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    [QUOTE=eddiewaringsflatcap;776160]
    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    So SL went alone due to lack of confidence in the RFL only? Nothing to do with power and control. Plenty of people have already turned on the SL and Robert Elstone, amazing isn't it, different organisation, different people same result, go figure



    Nice try but you appear to have missed my point which was rule changes off as well as in the field (reffered to in my original post as ‘ones coincidentally off the field as well...’).


    So basically the growth of the sport this side of the millennium appears to have stalled. I couldn’t imagine who have the mandate to develop and manage this growth.


    Do they or is that just a feeling of yours?
    Can I try one...
    Many people are angry in years of stagnation and bad decisions. Many people are angry that the corporate governance of the RFL resembles Enron.
    Do you seriously look at the likes of Ralph Rimmer and think Im confident in our leadership??
    The game has recently stagnated? It's over 100 years old!

    You seriously judge people by their looks? You look at a person and know exactly what they do in their day to day role? That's very shallow of you
    "People are angry at the current governance" - maybe they are but it doesn't mean they are right, in fact it's their perception I am challenging and I have every right to.
    If you feel the RFL are bad because other people think they are bad, then your simply following the masses, I've said before it's like mob rule," lots of people say it so it must be true" isn't a valid argument

    I keep pointing out, look at what is wrong, consider who is responsible, suggest ways forward, support them and drive change. Simply being lazy and mud slinging the first people you can think of isn't going to lead to change and only whips up more misguided fury

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    [QUOTE=Upside;776164]
    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post

    The game has recently stagnated? It's over 100 years old!

    You seriously judge people by their looks? You look at a person and know exactly what they do in their day to day role? That's very shallow of you
    A pathetic response and barely worthy of response, but I will because to be honest such nonsense needs putting firmly in its place. You know what the point was and trying to play with semantics makes you look a bit of a fool to be honest. Rimmer’s appointment after Wood stunk of nepotism and his CV for such a position is highly questionable

    .
    "People are angry at the current governance" - maybe they are but it doesn't mean they are right, in fact it's their perception I am challenging and I have every right to.
    If you feel the RFL are bad because other people think they are bad, then your simply following the masses, I've said before it's like mob rule," lots of people say it so it must be true" isn't a valid argument
    Again is this what you feel because that certainly isn’t a statement made on thought. It appears you’ve simply got a bit of a bee in your bonnet about any sort of criticism directed at RL; you risk tarnishing your own reputation by trying to implicate anyone, including myself, who doesnt agree with you as following the masses, mob rule etc.

    I’m disappointed in you at that post, I expected much better.
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 22nd September 2019 at 17:43. Reason: Grammar

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    I don’t get it. Upside said:


    I keep pointing out, look at what is wrong, consider who is responsible, suggest ways forward, support them and drive change.



    Which is exactly what eddieswaringsfc has done. Said what’s wrong, said who is responsible and suggested a way forward.

    If the RFL isn’t responsible for the health of the game what is their purpose?

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    I think Justin Holbrook has done alright , if we win the Championship on the 12th I will think maybe put his picture on the concourse.

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    [QUOTE=eddiewaringsflatcap;776165]
    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    A pathetic response and barely worthy of response, but I will because to be honest such nonsense needs putting firmly in its place. You know what the point was and trying to play with semantics makes you look a bit of a fool to be honest. Rimmer’s appointment after Wood stunk of nepotism and his CV for such a position is highly questionable

    Again is this what you feel because that certainly isn’t a statement made on thought. It appears you’ve simply got a bit of a bee in your bonnet about any sort of criticism directed at RL; you risk tarnishing your own reputation by trying to implicate anyone, including myself, who doesnt agree with you as following the masses, mob rule etc.

    I’m disappointed in you at that post, I expected much better.
    Sorry to call you out about this but your last post just dropped into the typical bickering seen in many forums on the internet.
    Falsely claiming to be 'disappointed in me' suggesting my comments make me look a 'fool' and saying my post was 'nonsense' is just an attempt at 'oneup manship' and doesn't address any of my points

    to reiterate, the RFL have made rule changes with the agreement of clubs for the better of the game and are not the sole if at all responsibility for the low gate at the recent play offs.
    There are no blue chip companies wanting to currently invest.
    Super league clubs want loop fixtures.
    Sky want Thursday night games
    The clubs voted for the middle eights

    Now, claiming I won't have any critisim of the RFL is a straw man argument, I've never said such a thing, I simply challenge widely held views and ask posters to question their own current opinions. Then people may see RL for what is is and be part of the solution. Far to many people are part of the fall and seemingly enjoying being outraged at all the piercieved issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    I don’t get it. Upside said:


    I keep pointing out, look at what is wrong, consider who is responsible, suggest ways forward, support them and drive change.



    Which is exactly what eddieswaringsfc has done. Said what’s wrong, said who is responsible and suggested a way forward.

    If the RFL isn’t responsible for the health of the game what is their purpose?
    The super league, the clubs none of which have any responsibility?

    And which bit was supportive or suggested ways forward?

    I have only seen blame and finger pointing

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    The SL have only recently taken on more responsibility and hopefully there should be more improvement. The decline over the last 10 years is due to a combination of factors but central to them is an ineffective governing body.

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    [QUOTE=Upside;776168]
    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post

    Sorry to call you out about this but your last post just dropped into the typical bickering seen in many forums on the internet.
    Falsely claiming to be 'disappointed in me' suggesting my comments make me look a 'fool' and saying my post was 'nonsense' is just an attempt at 'oneup manship' and doesn't address any of my points

    to reiterate, the RFL have made rule changes with the agreement of clubs for the better of the game and are not the sole if at all responsibility for the low gate at the recent play offs.
    There are no blue chip companies wanting to currently invest.
    Super league clubs want loop fixtures.
    Sky want Thursday night games
    The clubs voted for the middle eights

    Now, claiming I won't have any critisim of the RFL is a straw man argument, I've never said such a thing, I simply challenge widely held views and ask posters to question their own current opinions. Then people may see RL for what is is and be part of the solution. Far to many people are part of the fall and seemingly enjoying being outraged at all the piercieved issue
    I suppose awaiting an apology was a forlorn hope. Unfortunately for you the common denominator ‘of typical bickering’ seems to be that you are often involved in them. Im not sure why but it does appear to be heavily emotion, not thought, led. I was disappointed, now I’m embarrassed for you.

    As it is Ill leave it at that and for the opinion of my fellow posters on here. Given your preference for esotericism Im sure we can agree that if I come off the better there’s no hard feelings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    The SL have only recently taken on more responsibility and hopefully there should be more improvement. The decline over the last 10 years is due to a combination of factors but central to them is an ineffective governing body.
    They may not be great and I have never claimed they are, but it's like working with one hand tied behind your back, money, exposure, clubs acting in their own interest etc.

    The vast majority of posts just say they are rubbish, rarely see anyone point out the positive aspects of the game or the good they have done, GB return, great RL app, good standard of academy game etc.

    Maybe RL struggle despite the RFL rather than because of them?
    Last edited by Upside; 22nd September 2019 at 18:21.

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    [QUOTE=eddiewaringsflatcap;776171]
    Quote Originally Posted by E View Post
    I suppose awaiting an apology was a forlorn hope. Unfortunately for you the common denominator ‘of typical bickering’ seems to be that you are often involved in them. Im not sure why but it does appear to be heavily emotion, not thought, led. I was disappointed, now I’m embarrassed for you.
    As it is Ill leave it at that and for the opinion of my fellow posters on here. Given your preference for esotericism Im sure we can agree that if I come off the better there’s no hard feelings.
    You embarrassed for me? I'm confident enough in my own opinion and to share it. I've challenged your views and your resorted to these continual insults rather than to have a decent respectful discussion on differing views, and then you have decided to walk away.

    The only thing I care about is the growth of this great sport, not your opinion of me or your attempts to belittle me, they reflect more on you than me.

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    GB should not have disappeared in the first place. RU given a marketing open net with the Lions concept.

    My opinion is that the growth and health of a game can only be a secondary focus for the clubs. They have limited funds and primarily need to pay wages of staff, overheads and also focus on being as good as they can be.

    The RFL are funded as a primary objective to promote and care for the game with no secondary distraction of running the club. For this reason they are the principal reason for the state we are in with other stakeholders still responsible but less so.

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    [QUOTE=Upside;776173]
    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post

    You embarrassed for me? I'm confident enough in my own opinion and to share it. I've challenged your views and your resorted to these continual insults rather than to have a decent respectful discussion on differing views, and then you have decided to walk away.

    The only thing I care about is the growth of this great sport, not your opinion of me.
    Respectful discussion? Earn it. You seem to conflate most peoples opinions you disagree with into a misrepresentation of what they said, usually to fit into your feelings. If thats poor form then playing the ‘offended’ card when pulled up on it is worse. I could’ve been far harsher, I can understand why Angry Dave was driven to despair. Thats the reason for ‘walking away.’ Better things to do then argue with someone who deliberately seeks to undermine arguments by misrepresenting them.

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    [QUOTE=eddiewaringsflatcap;776176]
    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post

    Respectful discussion? Earn it. You seem to conflate most peoples opinions you disagree with into a misrepresentation of what they said, usually to fit into your feelings. If thats poor form then playing the ‘offended’ card when pulled up on it is worse. I could’ve been far harsher, I can understand why Angry Dave was driven to despair. Thats the reason for ‘walking away.’ Better things to do then argue with someone who deliberately seeks to undermine arguments by misrepresenting them.

    No offended card played, simply pointing out your insults. Nothing has been misrepresented I only respond to what has been written and I have no intention of arguing, I use forums like most people to to discuss things that matter to me, unless your worried about sharing an opinion then yes you will have differing views to others.
    Your wish to be 'harsh' I find bizarre? Why it would anger you so much that someone doesn't agree with you is beyond me, I've not insulted you?

    Any chance we can get this thread back on topic

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    GB should not have disappeared in the first place. RU given a marketing open net with the Lions concept.

    My opinion is that the growth and health of a game can only be a secondary focus for the clubs. They have limited funds and primarily need to pay wages of staff, overheads and also focus on being as good as they can be.

    The RFL are funded as a primary objective to promote and care for the game with no secondary distraction of running the club. For this reason they are the principal reason for the state we are in with other stakeholders still responsible but less so.

    I fully agree GB should not have gone in the first place, incredible own goal, hopefully now been addressed

    I understand RFL oversee most things and the clubs have their own house to keep in order. But clubs get to vote on changes, if the rfl ignored them they would be accused of being arrogant, the issue with using them is they have vested interests, what's the solution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I would say I'm the opposite of that.

    I believe those blaming refs and the RFL for everything are burying their heads, it's saves them addressing the real issues

    I want the real problems to be addressed and look for solutions to improve the sport, so I believe I'm the one with my head up whilst others bury theirs

    If you listen and see the work done in Newcastle and what Andy Macy wanted to do that is probably the closest to my own views
    There's a surprise. I've not seen much of your ideas for improvement. All we get is you vehemently defending the RFL and rubbishing everyone else's opinions. Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe not everyone else is wrong? Whilst also appearing to be a hypocrite by calling people lazy for blaming the RFL as you lazily call out everyone else.

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    Any way I STILL think Holbrook has done OK and if we win on the 12th put his picture in the concourse the OP was about Holbrook .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Ged View Post
    Any way I STILL think Holbrook has done OK and if we win on the 12th put his picture in the concourse the OP was about Holbrook .
    Yes. I think so too. This is his first post as head coach and we’ve gone from boring to exciting. Lack lustre squad to a squad that looks pretty hopeful. Let’s hope our next coach can take it a step further. Maybe bring in or develop a scrum half along the way. Maybe replace an out going prop with an exciting new player.

    Reasons to be cheerful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Yes. I think so too. This is his first post as head coach and we’ve gone from boring to exciting. Lack lustre squad to a squad that looks pretty hopeful. Let’s hope our next coach can take it a step further. Maybe bring in or develop a scrum half along the way. Maybe replace an out going prop with an exciting new player.

    Reasons to be cheerful
    Lots to look forward to as there are a couple of academy players who look very good prospects at this stage. If we can win the end of season cup game at OT then Woolfe will have a confident squad with lots of firepower at his disposal. Holbrook’s biggest legacy is the level of improvement in many of the squad from where they were when he first inherited the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    There's a surprise. I've not seen much of your ideas for improvement. All we get is you vehemently defending the RFL and rubbishing everyone else's opinions. Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe not everyone else is wrong? Whilst also appearing to be a hypocrite by calling people lazy for blaming the RFL as you lazily call out everyone else.
    I have considered everyone else's opinions yes, I couldn't challenge if I hadn't. Challenging a view isnt simply rubbishing it, if so every alternate opinion would somehow be rubbishing, it may be for you but not for me, I enjoy discussing and hearing alternate opinions even if I don't agree

    I've said my Newcastle is the great advert for spreading the game, their community it's work is excellent

    The game needs bigger names, I would have liked Swinton to have the Manchester name change

    I've spoken about the youth set ups and the good engagement

    I've pointed out many good things that are happening, I guess having a more positive opinion of the work going on means I have less to suggest for improvement than those who continually blame and point fingers

    I've spoken about tv money being the biggest thing we need to concentrate for our immediate future

    I don't believe it's lazy to call out 'some other posters' (as opposed to everyone else as you claimed) it's the opposite, it would be far lazier to just agree with everyone

    The problem with surrounding yourself with people who agree with you or never challenge you is you never get to question your own understanding or challenge your own thoughts and opinions. If this board only seeks those of the same opinion the value to readers is massively compromised

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Lots to look forward to as there are a couple of academy players who look very good prospects at this stage. If we can win the end of season cup game at OT then Woolfe will have a confident squad with lots of firepower at his disposal. Holbrook’s biggest legacy is the level of improvement in many of the squad from where they were when he first inherited the team.
    I hope we win the GF for the club obviously but I also feel Holbrook deserves it for the work he has done with the club

    It wasn't that long ago morale of fans was very low, it appeared morale of players was even lower! He changed all of this, he has given the players confidence and decent players have become very good players. He hasn't been scared to send out big money imports on loan or duel reg, he hasn't been worried giving young or fringe players opportunity. He has really turned the team and therefore wider morale around and I think we are all grateful for that

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Lots to look forward to as there are a couple of academy players who look very good prospects at this stage. If we can win the end of season cup game at OT then Woolfe will have a confident squad with lots of firepower at his disposal. Holbrook’s biggest legacy is the level of improvement in many of the squad from where they were when he first inherited the team.
    I agree. He has brought the academy players in brilliantly. I hope he has a great conclusion to his time here. It’s a good platform for the future but still lots of work to be done in order to reach a place where Saints are top of the league for four or five years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    There’s balance to this argument though.

    Inconsistency isn’t asked for by the RFL, but underfunding, and approaches in making refs accountable do contribute to this which is within the RFLs control.

    Not sure I get your argument about blue chip sponsors, it’s the RFLs job to line up sponsors and convince them to spend. There’s plenty that could be done even with profile C/D market audiences. If the RFL are only taking he approach of agreeing sponsorship with people seeking them out (which it appears) then yes lack of sponsorship opportunities is on the RFL.
    In the same breath I totally agree clubs see the RFL as the handout organisation whose responsible for doing everything they’re too lazy too
    Sorry just seen this

    Some good points made, I've no idea if they are seeking new investments or rely on those who seek them but i suspect they do try to find better investment, it's just that RL is not an easy sell or we would have managed it over the decades we have been running

    London is a great example of looking towards hand outs, before they went down last time they did very little to generate their own income, they relied on the fundin. When they went down they had to look at their own business plan, now they have really progressed, not without issues but they have a great academy, came 5th this year, they work hard to get good attendances and try to upsell products with the beer hut etc. Their community game has improved and their engagement with the broncos has improved as they know that's were their future players will come from
    They have just sold a 17 year old to Wigan, so proof their youth system is working, no reason why heart land clubs couldn't do the same, many do like saints but not all

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