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Thread: Head Test/Concussion Rule

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_down_under View Post
    Easily solved. Go off for the head test. If the player is fit to return then no free substitution and the substitution tally is decremented. If not deemed fit to return then free sub rule applies. At the end of the day the team would be down to 16 fit men (or women) so a free sub at that point is warranted.
    Problem with that is that it brings back a disincentive to leave the field for the test in the first place (in that if you pass the test you lose a sub), which is precisely the position that the rule is meant to avoid from a player welfare perspective.

    Its a really difficult one - how do you ensure players and clubs abide by the spirit of the rule whilst protecting the players?

    Perhaps there needs to be an additional rule that if player fails a head test post match and was not removed from the field (without returning), then said player automatically misses two matches and the club gets a meaningful fine. Maybe this would force players and coaches to remove themselves / their players from the field if there is a genuine chance they have a head injury?

    Really difficult one and no idea how it can be addressed because player welfare has to come first.

    Shame it is being exploited in this way - we all know who the main culprits are.




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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Let's stop beating about the bush.

    The current rule is sensible and in the interests of player safety and welfare.

    The RFL are having to review it because other clubs ( not necessarily or only Saints this time) are complaining about one club (wonder who?) are abusing it.

    Simply need to look at the recordings of the games and either act retrospectively or make clear that any future incidents will not be tolerated.
    I really hope my club aren’t abusing this rule. Certainly on Friday I was surprised at one point that Cooper did NOT go off for a HIA.
    Of course it may be that clubs feel certain players have to be especially careful due to previous concussions. In RU for example George North seems to have had a number of problems.
    If there is a perception abuse then have an independent Dr at all games for this purpose. We don’t want a “bloodgate” in our sport.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    You would expect a doctor to put his hippocratic oath before the requests of a coach. If something was missed then surely the doctor would be just as culpable as the RL or club.
    Which is no different than what we have now, but the complaint is they are manipulating it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    If the HIA is carried out by an independent doctor, why not have that person also decide whether an HIA is necessary in the first instance? Regarding the issue of requiring the use of a substitution because of friendly fire, an injury justifying an HIA is no different from any other injury caused through accidental contact with a teammate.
    Upside I think we all agree there is enough on the field at the moment, the independent doctor also on the field assessing if a HIA is deemed worthy along with the physio and club doctor is more delays. Dunno if I have this wrong but I think the post was advocating that if the person having HIA passed then no free substitution, if that person is off for a compulsory test then that is unfair especially if it is accidental.
    An injury to head or any other part is a substitution and has been as far a while ( I can still remember if you could not get up to play the ball it was a scrum down head and feed to oppo). The Sky pundits are quick to point out if a player has been assessed during half time on review of incidents and have failed the HIA, so the independent doctors must view most matches closely.
    Last edited by Tallaght Tiger; 12th September 2019 at 11:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    I really hope my club aren’t abusing this rule. Certainly on Friday I was surprised at one point that Cooper did NOT go off for a HIA.
    Of course it may be that clubs feel certain players have to be especially careful due to previous concussions. In RU for example George North seems to have had a number of problems.
    If there is a perception abuse then have an independent Dr at all games for this purpose. We don’t want a “bloodgate” in our sport.
    All HIA are done by an independent doctor. They also review footage of injuries and have checked at half time and found players did not pass.
    Chris Hill is quite simply going off for a free break under the guise of a head injury. Any team can do this it is just yourselves doing it to its limits to break moment etc. I have no problem with this, morally it may be against the spirit but if it gets victory so be it, all the other teams need to either do the same or get smart, maybe grab the ball from the cramped player being diagnosed and treated by his doctor/physio qualified team mate, look for a knock on or interrupt the play for longer to draw attention to it.
    Feigning a head injury is asking for repercussions "the boy who cried wolf" eh, it will come back and bite him on the arse.

  6. #31
    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    It is ridiculous these days the number of stoppages for minor injuries and, most hideously of all, cramp. It was one of the great pluses of our game that play continued except for potential serious injuries and more recently and understandably, head knocks. What ever happened to giving it to someone else at the play the ball when a player had taken a knock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Which is no different than what we have now, but the complaint is they are manipulating it
    I was supporting Saints down Under's proposal that if you pass the head test it counts as a substitution, which is totally different to the present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I was supporting Saints down Under's proposal that if you pass the head test it counts as a substitution, which is totally different to the present.
    You said a doctor would put his oath before the wishes of a coach and therefore it wouldn't be manipulated, I said the claim is it's being manipulated currently anyway, so no reason to think it would change

    Lots of good posts since yours which have made some very good points, food for thought

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    I don't know if I'm being about of a sadist here, but surely 8 substitutions is enough? You don't get many sports where you can make 8 subs in a game, so I don't see why the HIA substitution rule needs to be in place.

    You come off with a head injury it's classed as a sub, if after the assessment you're fit to return you can. 20 mins later you're back on anyway like most subs tend to roll anyway.


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  10. #35
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    I think its a case of you are damned either way, the way it is now it is open to abuse, teams can use it as a free rest for up to 15 minutes, but you have to have something in place for player welfare. I think the easiest thing to do is have it where if the player is deemed fit to return the change counts as a used interchange, but if the player doesn't then it doesn't count against your 8 changes, i don't think a team should lose a player to concussion and an interchange as well, it would cut down on any abuse on the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    I think its a case of you are damned either way, the way it is now it is open to abuse, teams can use it as a free rest for up to 15 minutes, but you have to have something in place for player welfare. I think the easiest thing to do is have it where if the player is deemed fit to return the change counts as a used interchange, but if the player doesn't then it doesn't count against your 8 changes, i don't think a team should lose a player to concussion and an interchange as well, it would cut down on any abuse on the system.
    This is about right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    You said a doctor would put his oath before the wishes of a coach and therefore it wouldn't be manipulated, I said the claim is it's being manipulated currently anyway, so no reason to think it would change

    Lots of good posts since yours which have made some very good points, food for thought
    I never said a doctor WOULD, nor did I use the word MANIPULATE.

    What I did say was "You would EXPECT a doctor to put his hippocratic oath before the requests of a coach. If something was missed then surely the doctor would be just as culpable as the RL or club"
    As you are alway posting from such a lofty position, perhaps you cannot read what I wrote.

    I agree about there being some good posts later, I never discount anyone's views though I may have a different opinion.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    I think its a case of you are damned either way, the way it is now it is open to abuse, teams can use it as a free rest for up to 15 minutes, but you have to have something in place for player welfare. I think the easiest thing to do is have it where if the player is deemed fit to return the change counts as a used interchange, but if the player doesn't then it doesn't count against your 8 changes, i don't think a team should lose a player to concussion and an interchange as well, it would cut down on any abuse on the system.
    Yep - I don't think this is a perfect solution but it's probably about as good as we can get.

  14. #39
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    Warrington Cup Final Subs

    |Mins |Off |On
    --------------------
    |13 | Hill | Philbin (HIA)
    |24 | Cooper | Davis (HIA)
    |32 | Clark | Hill
    |46 | Davis | Akauola
    |49 | Philbin | Clark
    |51 | Hill | Cooper
    |53 | Ben M-M | Mamo
    |58 | Akauola | Hill
    |68 | Clark | Philbin
    |76 | Hill | Clark

    This hasn't sat well with me since the cup final. It just so happens that the two players Wire wanted to rest in the first half both had head knocks and no one else.

    Another point made to me was that the shot clock kept getting stopped in the second half. We had a number of very slow restarts.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Warrington Cup Final Subs

    |Mins |Off |On
    --------------------
    |13 | Hill | Philbin (HIA)
    |24 | Cooper | Davis (HIA)
    |32 | Clark | Hill
    |46 | Davis | Akauola
    |49 | Philbin | Clark
    |51 | Hill | Cooper
    |53 | Ben M-M | Mamo
    |58 | Akauola | Hill
    |68 | Clark | Philbin
    |76 | Hill | Clark

    This hasn't sat well with me since the cup final. It just so happens that the two players Wire wanted to rest in the first half both had head knocks and no one else.

    .
    Yes, very convenient

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Warrington Cup Final Subs

    |Mins |Off |On
    --------------------
    |13 | Hill | Philbin (HIA)
    |24 | Cooper | Davis (HIA)
    |32 | Clark | Hill
    |46 | Davis | Akauola
    |49 | Philbin | Clark
    |51 | Hill | Cooper
    |53 | Ben M-M | Mamo
    |58 | Akauola | Hill
    |68 | Clark | Philbin
    |76 | Hill | Clark

    This hasn't sat well with me since the cup final. It just so happens that the two players Wire wanted to rest in the first half both had head knocks and no one else.

    Another point made to me was that the shot clock kept getting stopped in the second half. We had a number of very slow restarts.
    That makes it look even worse than it did on the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Warrington Cup Final Subs

    |Mins |Off |On
    --------------------
    |13 | Hill | Philbin (HIA)
    |24 | Cooper | Davis (HIA)
    |32 | Clark | Hill
    |46 | Davis | Akauola
    |49 | Philbin | Clark
    |51 | Hill | Cooper
    |53 | Ben M-M | Mamo
    |58 | Akauola | Hill
    |68 | Clark | Philbin
    |76 | Hill | Clark

    This hasn't sat well with me since the cup final. It just so happens that the two players Wire wanted to rest in the first half both had head knocks and no one else.

    Another point made to me was that the shot clock kept getting stopped in the second half. We had a number of very slow restarts.
    That does look very dodgy.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Warrington Cup Final Subs

    |Mins |Off |On
    --------------------
    |13 | Hill | Philbin (HIA)
    |24 | Cooper | Davis (HIA)
    |32 | Clark | Hill
    |46 | Davis | Akauola
    |49 | Philbin | Clark
    |51 | Hill | Cooper
    |53 | Ben M-M | Mamo
    |58 | Akauola | Hill
    |68 | Clark | Philbin
    |76 | Hill | Clark

    This hasn't sat well with me since the cup final. It just so happens that the two players Wire wanted to rest in the first half both had head knocks and no one else.

    Another point made to me was that the shot clock kept getting stopped in the second half. We had a number of very slow restarts.
    Well done Noel. I was looking on RL stats and Betfred SL weeks ago but could not get the HIA results, on the match stats it gives substitutions on the report but not the reason. I would love to know who tops the HIA assessments that the players passed, also the stops in play when in the last minutes of either half when a team is narrowly in front.

  19. #44
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    Just watched the first HIA for Hill (the Cooper one looks perfectly legit to be fair). It’s actually on 18 minutes, the ball is dropped out, he looks exhausted chasing it back, he takes a drive in where there is zero contact with his head, stays down on his haunches and the physio gives it the ‘head’ signal.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Just watched the first HIA for Hill (the Cooper one looks perfectly legit to be fair). It’s actually on 18 minutes, the ball is dropped out, he looks exhausted chasing it back, he takes a drive in where there is zero contact with his head, stays down on his haunches and the physio gives it the ‘head’ signal.
    Very similar to "chester" at our place caught on camera .
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