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Thread: Relegation

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I find this bizarre. Whatever the arguments for or against Toronto they surely must have been led to believe long ago that if they won the Championship they would get into Super League so for Super League to start questioning this now seems strange. I’ve never been to their ground (if that’s the issue) but on TV it looks better than London, Cas and Wakey. For what it’s worth I’ve not been too impressed with Elstone so far.
    They haven't fallen under SL so far so all the checks were done by the RFL.

    I suspect it's all different now as SL as its own identify need their own assurances, I've no idea what these are but understand them being asked for, I suspect they asked sometime ago and not yet received them, and D day is getting closer

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    In between the sniping and bickering there is some decent debate on this thread.
    Pity we have to work hard to pick out the good bits.

    The Toronto situation is an absolute farce. Right from the launch they had made it clear their intention was to reach super league and they have built a squad to that end.
    If the powers that be had any doubts over their suitability, viability and pure practicality over logistics etc they should have been thrashed out long before the week or so before they are likely to qualify.
    The governance of this sport never fails to shoot itself in the foot.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    From listening to Elstone on Rugby AM, I think he's far from convinced over Toronto and says they will have to meet some criteria to get into Super League
    I recorded Rugby AM tonight. First half was followed by the second half of last week's programme?! Is Free Sports run from somebody's bedroom and how do they cock up things like that? Not the first time they have played to wrong episode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I recorded Rugby AM tonight. First half was followed by the second half of last week's programme?! Is Free Sports run from somebody's bedroom and how do they cock up things like that? Not the first time they have played to wrong episode.
    Ralph Rimmer's probably.

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    I notice in a piece that Total RL did with Elstone that he says that even if Toronto are given a place in SL they will not be receiving any of the TV money, which will then be split between the remaining 11 clubs. He doesn't say why (perhaps to offset the expenses associated with travelling to play there?). But they are going to be doing it tough if/whem they do come in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    In between the sniping and bickering there is some decent debate on this thread.
    Pity we have to work hard to pick out the good bits.

    The Toronto situation is an absolute farce. Right from the launch they had made it clear their intention was to reach super league and they have built a squad to that end.
    If the powers that be had any doubts over their suitability, viability and pure practicality over logistics etc they should have been thrashed out long before the week or so before they are likely to qualify.
    The governance of this sport never fails to shoot itself in the foot.
    The problem here, I think, is that when Toronto came into being the RFL, who seem to be fully in favour of the concept, were in charge of SL. Since then the power has shifted to Super League, and from the moment Elstone took over he has been much more cautious when talking about Toronto (reading between the lines he just doesn't seem to like the idea). When Toronto go from Championship to SL they will be moving into a competition run by a different governing body, and one which would seem to be much less keen on their involvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    In between the sniping and bickering there is some decent debate on this thread.
    Pity we have to work hard to pick out the good bits.

    The Toronto situation is an absolute farce. Right from the launch they had made it clear their intention was to reach super league and they have built a squad to that end.
    If the powers that be had any doubts over their suitability, viability and pure practicality over logistics etc they should have been thrashed out long before the week or so before they are likely to qualify.
    The governance of this sport never fails to shoot itself in the foot.
    I don't know whether international expansion is right or wrong, but with the talk of a second Canadian Team and a New York team, it is time we made our mind up one way or another. The current situation with Toronto expecting promotion but maybe not getting it is farcical after this length of time. Toronto as well as SL clubs should know what the situation will be. Personally, I would be happy to see Toulouse get promoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I don't know whether international expansion is right or wrong, but with the talk of a second Canadian Team and a New York team, it is time we made our mind up one way or another. The current situation with Toronto expecting promotion but maybe not getting it is farcical after this length of time. Toronto as well as SL clubs should know what the situation will be. Personally, I would be happy to see Toulouse get promoted.
    It would be a farce beyond farces if after all this time, with all the investment and all the planning Toronto won the Championship and were then denied access to Super League. It would kill any expansion stone dead and the fallout would do irreparable damage to SL in my opinion. I too would be happy with Toulouse but not if they didn’t win it.

  9. #184
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    In terms of promotion and relegation to me it is the only way to run rugby league.

    A franchise or license is a farce as the criteria was always opaque and therefore enabled the governing body to fudge what ever outcome it desired.
    In return this discouraged new entrants to the competition and undermined the base of players, as a side effect it made SL clubs complacent and comfortable with picking up a guaranteed payday from TV money as they controlled who came in and who came out.

    Lets not forget it was SL that asked the RFL to save it last time, not the other way around.
    Since the re-introduction of P&R we have seen a resurgence in the lower leagues and a more competitive competition at the top flight.

    When you look down at teams that are targeting a move up, then to see Toronto, leigh, Bradford and York growing because of that opportunity that is the right way to grow the game.
    SL has tried parachuting clubs into the top division and I'm yet to be convinced that it grew the game or delivered the desired outcome.
    PSG/Broncos/Crusaders...

    Were as growth from promotion seems to enable a club to establish itself.
    If there is a minimum criteria for SL, then it should be quantifiable and published.

    Because if Toronto don't qualify I would like to know how others such as Wakefield do.
    I don't actually care what the criteria is, but clubs should know at the start of a year, whether they are even in with a chance as that will allow them to focus resources.

    The issue with SL clubs running SL is that it restricts expansion aspirations as enlightened self-interest will motivate clubs to keep as much of the current money as they can for themselves, (not sharing TV money with Toronto, not wanting to expand the division).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I'm quite enthusiastic about York, lots to be excited about
    Would love to see York in super league. Real potential as a club. The amateur sports scene in York is absolutely booming so I think there’s certainly a big potential fanbase, especially when you factor in the 2 universities as well.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Would love to see York in super league. Real potential as a club. The amateur sports scene in York is absolutely booming so I think there’s certainly a big potential fanbase, especially when you factor in the 2 universities as well.
    But has York got potential to get good crowds? Don’t know the population figures/details but I suspect people view York with rose-tinted spectacles in the same way as they look at Cumbria I.e. lovely place but I question whether they’ve got the urban demographic needed to sustain a professional Super League club. It would be great if they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    But has York got potential to get good crowds? Don’t know the population figures/details but I suspect people view York with rose-tinted spectacles in the same way as they look at Cumbria I.e. lovely place but I question whether they’ve got the urban demographic needed to sustain a professional Super League club. It would be great if they did.
    208,200 as of 2017. Hull 280,000 so York could easily support a team in Superleague

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    Quote Originally Posted by stroger View Post
    208,200 as of 2017. Hull 280,000 so York could easily support a team in Superleague
    Population alone though doesn’t do it. Otherwise London would get 50,000 every time they play. Historically York has never really attracted a big crowd - probably more to do with the traditions and nature of the demographic. Hull - docks and fishing, Saints, Wigan mining and glass. RL tends to draw support from traditional working class towns. I know I’m hopelessly generalising and out of my depth with these assumptions but I thought it was worth discussing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    But has York got potential to get good crowds? Don’t know the population figures/details but I suspect people view York with rose-tinted spectacles in the same way as they look at Cumbria I.e. lovely place but I question whether they’ve got the urban demographic needed to sustain a professional Super League club. It would be great if they did.
    It could work if they targeted the student population which is the kind of demographic the whole game should be looking at attracting imo

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    It would be a farce beyond farces if after all this time, with all the investment and all the planning Toronto won the Championship and were then denied access to Super League. It would kill any expansion stone dead and the fallout would do irreparable damage to SL in my opinion. I too would be happy with Toulouse but not if they didn’t win it.
    I'm glad they are making checks, of Toronto don't complete their fixtures it's a bigger farce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I'm glad they are making checks, of Toronto don't complete their fixtures it's a bigger farce
    Correct, absolutely nothing wrong with due diligence although it should be enforced across all clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Population alone though doesn’t do it. Otherwise London would get 50,000 every time they play. Historically York has never really attracted a big crowd - probably more to do with the traditions and nature of the demographic. Hull - docks and fishing, Saints, Wigan mining and glass. RL tends to draw support from traditional working class towns. I know I’m hopelessly generalising and out of my depth with these assumptions but I thought it was worth discussing.
    Why? The town of Enfield has a population of about 120K

    I know it's slightly off topic, but (sorry saintgeorge!), it does annoy me when people don't compare like with like when talking about attendances v populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Why? The town of Enfield has a population of about 120K

    I know it's slightly off topic, but (sorry saintgeorge!), it does annoy me when people don't compare like with like when talking about attendances v populations.
    I get what you are saying, but they don’t play as Ealing Broncos do they? Assuming you meant Ealing rather than Enfield?

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Population alone though doesn’t do it. Otherwise London would get 50,000 every time they play. Historically York has never really attracted a big crowd - probably more to do with the traditions and nature of the demographic. Hull - docks and fishing, Saints, Wigan mining and glass. RL tends to draw support from traditional working class towns. I know I’m hopelessly generalising and out of my depth with these assumptions but I thought it was worth discussing.
    But York has traditionally had a working class demographic: chocolate (Rowntree and Terry), Railways (big engineering works), glass (not as big as St Helens, but important nevertheless). B.S. Rowntree’s Studies of Poverty, from 1900, 1934 and 1955, all based on York evidence, are credited as the inspiration for the welfare state. Thatcher devastated most of that economy, as she did elsewhere, and York is heavily indebted to its major university and hi-tec start-ups stemming from research there. It could support a Superleague team. Whether it will, though, is another matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    I get what you are saying, but they don’t play as Ealing Broncos do they? Assuming you meant Ealing rather than Enfield?
    Thanks. I am getting my E's mixed up! The town of Ealing is even smaller. About 72K.
    You are of course correct in saying that they carry the name 'London', but that's where, IMO, folks become unreasonable when talking about populations, and use the likes of (Greater) London's 8.9 million to define potential Broncos Fans.

    Just to throw something else into the mix... The Stoop to Trailfinders is about 45 mins drive. Charlton to Trailfinders would take twice that.

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    But York has traditionally had a working class demographic: chocolate (Rowntree and Terry), Railways (big engineering works), glass (not as big as St Helens, but important nevertheless). B.S. Rowntree’s Studies of Poverty, from 1900, 1934 and 1955, all based on York evidence, are credited as the inspiration for the welfare state. Thatcher devastated most of that economy, as she did elsewhere, and York is heavily indebted to its major university and hi-tec start-ups stemming from research there. It could support a Superleague team. Whether it will, though, is another matter.
    Thanks for that. I really do hope York can kick on, get a better stadium and achieve SL status with good crowds to boot.

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    York as a rugby league city was at deaths door due to a number of reasons losing Clarence Street being perhaps the final straw. Now the RL club is going into this new stadium very much on the front foot. Like everything else people always want a winning side but I honestly believe that York achieving mid table status in super league in the summer era, with away support would be looking at 5 to 6 thousand average crowds. It would also boost the marketing image of Super-league.

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