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Thread: Relegation

  1. #151
    In The South Stand KentishBarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian Saint View Post
    I'm not sure what, if anything the rfl could do to market the game better, and to encourage new fans
    I have no facts to back this up, but I've always felt that the RFL have a bit of a 'working men's club committee' feel about them.
    Dare I say it, but perhaps some younger blood is needed? Employ a couple of social media savvy 17yo's maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    I have no facts to back this up, but I've always felt that the RFL have a bit of a 'working men's club committee' feel about them.
    Dare I say it, but perhaps some younger blood is needed? Employ a couple of social media savvy 17yo's maybe?
    We had a much heralded Super League Leader appointed last year, Mr Elstone, we heard a bit from him re-organising the league structure for the first month or so but that's about it.
    I'm certain he's working away behind the scenes on deciding where the next Magic Weekend is going to be.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I've never really gone down the route of criticising modern players because I feel it is a cultural shift in the sport and a change in coaching methods more than the actual ability of a load of young lads coming through in the game.

    There is no reason why the best crop of 15-16 year olds playing all over the place could not be as good as Hanley, Sculthorpe, Farrell, Long, etc in five years time. But if they are coached not to take as many chances, and coached to play a rigid style of RL dominated by 'completion stats' and doing low percentage stuff repeatedly then they'll never get the chance to even try to be as good as those players. No young lad trying to become a professional is going to go off script and defy what he's being coached to do, so I don't attach any blame to them.

    But, that problem exists, and has existed for a while. A poorer style of play is the main issue, but a lowering of standards is linked in because really high standards of creativity are not being coached in this crop of players. Cunningham was such a disappointment because he had coaches like McRae and Millward who encouraged KC's generation to express themselves and play a really stylish brand of RL but also at a high standard. Cunningham seemed to ignore everything that made his playing career so exciting and successful. Would he, Sculthorpe, Martyn, Long etc have been half as dynamic under a coach like KC became? The problem is coaching and culture, not necessarily poorer players.
    Gray 77 I think you have highlighted the deficiencies well, but we still do not have solutions.
    On the Walmsley podcast Wilko mentions 3, 10 team leagues and franchising/licencing, have a word with your fellow Mod Div on that one I am on his same page. Jon is an astute man but the first thing clubs say is a minimum of 14 home games per year.
    We all seem to agree that youth development is critical, I have posted numerous times have a look at the GAA business model. Dublin has 1.25 million people with soccer and rugby camps, yet Ballyboden GAA put out no less than 100 teams every week with junior, senior vets and girls/ladies games, put simply bigger than Barcelona. Less than 500m from this club house is another GAA club and less than a mile away in radius from this club is another two clubs. We can operate this model in the North West.
    We need money and sponsorship, I left my morals at the door, I am not bothered if we get money from Pablo Escabor`s violent brother as long as it goes into grass root funding. My two grandsons can go to a summer camp at their clubs and for less than €70 get two weeks coaching , a kit , carrybag and even when they bring their own lunch the local shops donate sandwiches so they do not even need that. It is sponsored by Kelloggs an American co.
    The RFL need to get money in, if they cannot, resign their positions get someone in who can.
    FWIW Faz, Scully and Kez are once in a generation players and would succeed in spite of any coaching.
    We have a unique gladitorial sport we have to highlight this, allow two willing players to have a go, punish thuggery but if two consenting adults want a straightener let them at it.
    The following of the southern hemisphere rules and structures baffles me, it is their national sport.

  4. #154
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Belgian Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    In the spirit of balance.

    What's better now?
    - Players are better looked after and are in general in better condition to play the game
    - Stadiums are more comfortable and more welcoming to kids, women and older people
    - Stadiums attract more corporate hospitality and bring in more money for those clubs that own their own ground
    - The Grand Final has had more positives than negatives in terms of being a showcase end of season game
    - Magic Weekend seems to be a success and is a good weekend for the sport when played in the right place (Newcastle was perfect for it)
    - The national team is relatively strong and is shown FTA on BBC
    - We have a secure (if possibly undervalued) TV deal
    - The GB Lions return this year, albeit they should never have gone away
    - We may get a proper Australia tour next year to accompany the Ashes series

    What is worse now?
    - Stadiums lack character and identity, and lack the atmosphere of the older grounds
    - We have far less characters in the game and less players who are prepared to play outside of a rigid system
    - We have far less elite Australians and Kiwis playing in our game
    - The Challenge Cup has been severely weakened
    - Replacing GB Lions with England took away something unique that we had as a sport at international level
    - The weekly rounds have been diluted by a play-off system, and further diluted by the repeated changes in the play-off system.
    - Trophies are now won on two Saturdays in the season, and not won based on consistency and putting in hard graft and winning more points/games than everyone else.

    There are loads more, but those are the ones off the top of my head. Some people may think the first list of things is more important, that's fair enough. Comfort of stadiums, having 70 live games on Sky etc is a big thing for some, that's fine. Personally the second list is more important to me. I've never cared too much about having a comfy seat at a stadium, and never cared too much if we had wall to wall TV games etc. I'm happy the Lions are back, but how much will they now mean for younger fans given they've been gone for a good while?

    For me, the rigid nature of the modern game, the lack of creativity on the park, the boring modern grounds, the dilution of the weekly rounds, the weakening of the Challenge Cup and the way success is now artificially defined (finish 8th, finish 5th etc) rather than winning the most games and the most points all mean more to me than anything.

    But we all value certain things in different ways I suppose.
    Some really good bullet points.

    Positives.
    The way Sky seemed to be cost cutting on SL do you think our deal really is secure?

    Negatives.
    I wouldn't want any more imports than we currently have, but as you say we don't have the elite.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Positives.
    The way Sky seemed to be cost cutting on SL do you think our deal really is secure?

    Negatives.
    I wouldn't want any more imports than we currently have, but as you say we don't have the elite.
    The Sky deal runs through the 2021 season. I would expect something to happen early next season regarding the new rights deal. It's secure until the end of 2021 at least, then we'll see what happens.

    As for overseas imports, I agree that we don't need more, we just used to have some really good ones. I'd take quality over quantity. The move to summer Rugby didn't help of course as when I was a kid Kenny, Sterling, Meninga and (cough) O'Connor came over for 3-4 months in their off season. I'm not expecting SOO players to pack their bags and head for England, but a select few of some of the tier below them were playing here not too long ago.

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    Some good posts here, with regards to attendances, we've probably plateaued, and on the whole attendances are better now, found an article which had some averages:

    1995 - Leeds 11500, Wigan 12k, Saints 7k, Wire 5k, Cas 4k, London 2.3k

    It didn't have all the teams from that year but for example Hull had 5.6k in 1998, Salford 5k in 1997, Wakefield 4k in 1999

    The average across the league was 5.5k in 1995, rising to 6.2k in 1999 peaking just short of 7k in 97/98

    This season (according to Wikipedia) has Saints, Hull, Leeds and Wigan all above 11k, with warrington just shy of 11k. Catalans (helped by Barcelona) 10.5k, Hull KR 8k, Cas 7k, the others all under 5.5k over their 14 home games. With an average attendance of 8300. (It's unclear where Magic fits into this)

    Whichever way you look at it there's more people watching league games nowadays, however cup competitions and Internationals where clearly better attended back then, that however seems to be the theme across all sport nowadays

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    Some good posts here, with regards to attendances, we've probably plateaued, and on the whole attendances are better now, found an article which had some averages:

    1995 - Leeds 11500, Wigan 12k, Saints 7k, Wire 5k, Cas 4k, London 2.3k

    It didn't have all the teams from that year but for example Hull had 5.6k in 1998, Salford 5k in 1997, Wakefield 4k in 1999

    The average across the league was 5.5k in 1995, rising to 6.2k in 1999 peaking just short of 7k in 97/98

    This season (according to Wikipedia) has Saints, Hull, Leeds and Wigan all above 11k, with warrington just shy of 11k. Catalans (helped by Barcelona) 10.5k, Hull KR 8k, Cas 7k, the others all under 5.5k over their 14 home games. With an average attendance of 8300. (It's unclear where Magic fits into this)

    Whichever way you look at it there's more people watching league games nowadays, however cup competitions and Internationals where clearly better attended back then, that however seems to be the theme across all sport nowadays
    Which would all be well on tge face of it but for one key point: the majority of SL teams are flogging tickets for little more than a few Tesco vouchers and a pound of tripe.

    In fact the sport can’t even come close to selling out Wembley and it struggles to drum up impressive attendances for many other ‘showpiece’ fixtures without resorting to selling off tickets for bargain basement prices.

    And people wonder why the sport has a something for nothing culture with a commercial profile in the toilet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    Some good posts here, with regards to attendances, we've probably plateaued, and on the whole attendances are better now, found an article which had some averages:

    1995 - Leeds 11500, Wigan 12k, Saints 7k, Wire 5k, Cas 4k, London 2.3k

    It didn't have all the teams from that year but for example Hull had 5.6k in 1998, Salford 5k in 1997, Wakefield 4k in 1999

    The average across the league was 5.5k in 1995, rising to 6.2k in 1999 peaking just short of 7k in 97/98

    This season (according to Wikipedia) has Saints, Hull, Leeds and Wigan all above 11k, with warrington just shy of 11k. Catalans (helped by Barcelona) 10.5k, Hull KR 8k, Cas 7k, the others all under 5.5k over their 14 home games. With an average attendance of 8300. (It's unclear where Magic fits into this)

    Whichever way you look at it there's more people watching league games nowadays, however cup competitions and Internationals where clearly better attended back then, that however seems to be the theme across all sport nowadays
    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Which would all be well on tge face of it but for one key point: the majority of SL teams are flogging tickets for little more than a few Tesco vouchers and a pound of tripe.

    In fact the sport can’t even come close to selling out Wembley and it struggles to drum up impressive attendances for many other ‘showpiece’ fixtures without resorting to selling off tickets for bargain basement prices.

    And people wonder why the sport has a something for nothing culture with a commercial profile in the toilet.
    Phew, nice work eddiewarringsflatcap, there was almost a positive post there but we quickly shot it down

    We just need to explain away the 30% increase to the championship attendances now and let normal service resume

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk paulscnthorpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Which would all be well on tge face of it but for one key point: the majority of SL teams are flogging tickets for little more than a few Tesco vouchers and a pound of tripe.

    In fact the sport can’t even come close to selling out Wembley and it struggles to drum up impressive attendances for many other ‘showpiece’ fixtures without resorting to selling off tickets for bargain basement prices.

    And people wonder why the sport has a something for nothing culture with a commercial profile in the toilet.
    I'm not sure free tickets has always been a thing, I remember getting them at school in 1996. Following saints seems more expensive than ever, particularly finals..

    I've found a GF ticket on eBay from 99, it's £15, the same area is now £30, I'm not certain but I reckon that's ahead of inflation..

    Not everything is Rosey, clearly not, but on the whole attendances have improved

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    Widnes relegation and Bradford promotion account for the increase?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    Widnes relegation and Bradford promotion account for the increase?
    That's the one we're back in the clear

    When we discuss attendances let's ignore the better attended teams when working out figures

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian Saint View Post
    Carry on being insulting
    I intend to as long as you carry on making stupid posts and asking even more stupid questions. Here's something to help you out with your Norwegian birds as you obviously need it.


    Jeg er en kjedelig planke og min penis er ubrukelig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    That's the one we're back in the clear

    When we discuss attendances let's ignore the better attended teams when working out figures
    I am unsure whether you grasped the irony of your reply so I will explain another way. Are more people going to the game or have we shifted the attendances from one league to another?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian Saint View Post
    Carry on,,, its being noted your insults
    Noted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    I am unsure whether you grasped the irony of your reply so I will explain another way. Are more people going to the game or have we shifted the attendances from one league to another?
    Two teams entering the league who have decent attendances will have a positive affect, without more detailed analysis it's hard to know how much of the growth is due to that. Widnes have a solid historic following but not great numbers for the SL, Bradford have a good following and likely to have more attending when playing a league above.

    But the fact remains regardless, attendances are up for the championship and that's a good thing, we should celebrate this not look for reasons to dismiss this good news

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    Yes agreed it is a good thing for the championship. For the game as a whole, inconclusive.

    League 1 is down which is connected to the Bradford move. Toronto helped to keep numbers up but you wonder about the sustainability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    Yes agreed it is a good thing for the championship. For the game as a whole, inconclusive.

    League 1 is down which is connected to the Bradford move. Toronto helped to keep numbers up but you wonder about the sustainability.
    Yes I'm pro expansion but I'm cautious about Toronto in its current format, a case of wait and see

    Sad to hear league one is down, I suspect aBradford had an impact, I'm not sure of that league, tombig a gap between top and bottom. I wanted the reserves to play in that league including some of the bottom half teams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian Saint View Post
    You took your time replying? Reading your favourite newspaper,, THE SUN was you?
    No, what an odd question.

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    The worry about Toronto is the number of actual home games they have played this year. That surely wont work in super league. Bradford I do not think will get promoted in a very long time. Outside bet for next year? York. new stadium, dynamic owners, affluent City with RL history especially in the Clarence Street era. Worth a few bob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The worry about Toronto is the number of actual home games they have played this year. That surely wont work in super league. Bradford I do not think will get promoted in a very long time. Outside bet for next year? York. new stadium, dynamic owners, affluent City with RL history especially in the Clarence Street era. Worth a few bob.
    I certainly wouldn't be unhappy with York.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The worry about Toronto is the number of actual home games they have played this year. That surely wont work in super league. Bradford I do not think will get promoted in a very long time. Outside bet for next year? York. new stadium, dynamic owners, affluent City with RL history especially in the Clarence Street era. Worth a few bob.

    I'm quite enthusiastic about York, lots to be excited about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Yes I'm pro expansion but I'm cautious about Toronto in its current format, a case of wait and see

    Sad to hear league one is down, I suspect aBradford had an impact, I'm not sure of that league, tombig a gap between top and bottom. I wanted the reserves to play in that league including some of the bottom half teams
    York and bradford will both have had an impact

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I'm going to go against the consensus here and say that I don't care who gets relegated, and I think it says alot about the problems in our sport that people give reasons for why club x is better than club y for reasons other than their quality as a team. If the structure of the comp was better, and if we didn't have a restrictive salary cap that handcuffs the biggest clubs we wouldn't really be giving thought to whether London, Hull KR, Huddersfield or Wakefield 'offer more' to Super League, because the league would be stronger and more exciting at the top end, and the clubs at the bottom end would simply be less important.

    Do football fans talk about whether Bournemouth 'offer more' to the Premier League than the likes of big clubs outside of it like Leeds United or Sheffield Wednesday? No, the strength of the league means that they can happily cope with a club with a ground that only holds 11,000. Huddersfield won 3 of their 38 games last season in the Premier League, they were an absolute joke, but nobody was calling it a great day when they went down because they weren't 'offering anything to the league' because the league is defined by its best teams and not by its worst.

    Rugby Union journos make the case that having Newcastle or Leeds Carnegie in the Premiership would be better in terms of having another Northern club, but at the end of the day if they're not hardly anyone gets themselves worked up over it because the league is defined by its best teams and not the ones at the bottom. Anyone tuning into a game at Sale would think RU was a game played in front of crap crowds, but you don't hear people saying Sale 'offer nothing' to the league because they aren't that important in a comp which is defined by the clubs at the top and not the ones making up the numbers.

    But, in RL we continually try to manufacture Super League to make sure club x is in and club y is out, because our comp isn't good enough or strong enough to cope with a few clubs making up the numbers. In a salary capped sport if you finish bottom, tough, you're down. That should be the only consideration. There is nothing unfair about it. If Wigan, Wire, Hull, Leeds and co were punching their weight, getting crowds and challenging us at the top, and if the league actually enabled the weekly rounds to be more important we'd not worry too much about the geographical positions or ground quality of teams at the bottom. The fact that we are shows that the comp and the game are not achieving their potential where it needs to, namely at the top end of Super League.

    Oh, but for RL to be as popular and wealthy as football, or even rugby union!

    The thing with football is that they don't need any particular team to be in the top tier, as there are a multitude of teams able to fill their stadiums and contribute to generating a £multi-billion TV revenue.

    Even in RU, their international game and the perpetual promotion by the right-wing media in this country has given them the financial stability to not need to manufacture scenarios that help create the notion of it being a countrywide sport. They have wealthy benefactors and the public school link to the game means that, in our 'old school tie, jobs for the boys' corporate executive culture, there's friendly sponsors a-plenty.

    RL doesn't have that advantage. From the outset, we've had to battle for every last quid, for every last fan, for every last bit of media exposure. Yes, we've had a succession of small-time pillocks at the helm of our sport, but the fact is that we've been perma-skint for decades. I know many fans like the whole, parochial 'northern throwback' sh*t and want to see the game focus on the heartlands but that way, especially in this age of media will lead only to a return to RL being a part-time sport, and a steady decline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The worry about Toronto is the number of actual home games they have played this year. That surely wont work in super league. Bradford I do not think will get promoted in a very long time. Outside bet for next year? York. new stadium, dynamic owners, affluent City with RL history especially in the Clarence Street era. Worth a few bob.
    From listening to Elstone on Rugby AM, I think he's far from convinced over Toronto and says they will have to meet some criteria to get into Super League

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    From listening to Elstone on Rugby AM, I think he's far from convinced over Toronto and says they will have to meet some criteria to get into Super League
    I find this bizarre. Whatever the arguments for or against Toronto they surely must have been led to believe long ago that if they won the Championship they would get into Super League so for Super League to start questioning this now seems strange. I’ve never been to their ground (if that’s the issue) but on TV it looks better than London, Cas and Wakey. For what it’s worth I’ve not been too impressed with Elstone so far.

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