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Thread: Standard of referees

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert80 View Post
    I think if you have been involved supporting games in the fifties ans sixties you will have seen far far worse refereee's and that includes Alex Murphy's mate 'Sargent Major Eric Clay'.
    The biggest problem now is that since the Sky involvement every major decision is picked over piece by piece. As soon as the ref makes a mistake he is undermined by the camera. Some authority is lost and eventually you get something like the debacle which occurred at Catalan vs Warrington when players totally got away with running rough shed over the ref. Maybe SKY instead of having a dig at the Chairman show a little bit of responsibility themselves
    A post that says it all on Refs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    At the risk of repeating this we could do a lot worse than learn from union.

    It would take at least 5-10 years but their development starts a grass roots level and they have to earn promotions, not get the job because they're the only ones willing to take the wage.

    There is no way any of our officials would be top referees in Union or the NRL. Officiating standards have dropped so far Tim Roby was told he had to start his development all over again after emigrating from the UK

    Also watching the international game yesterday it was really interesting to hear the touch judges in constant communication with the ref. They were monitoring the off sides and infringments on the refs blind side and it had a great effect on speeding up the game.


    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    I agree, union is far better. But to get better people at the top, or more people to chose from we need more at the bottom.
    There's a huge issue with abuse at lower levels, we need to fix this to encourage more to become officials
    Abuse at the top trickles down, so all the hassle officials get from those at the top, players, fans, staff etc. Has an affect lower down, which reduces applicants which reduces quality or numbers
    It's all connected

    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Should also imagine the management of match officials in RU is run much more professionally. Not like a boys club like Steve Ganson and his draw full of tissot watches and his mob currying for favours and a trip to Australia.
    It's more professional as they have more money to pay more people to have better facilities, it's also supported far better by the game, our game seems to hate refs, all justified as they made a mistake, (they also make mistakes in union) completely opposite mind set

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Should also imagine the management of match officials in RU is run much more professionally. Not like a boys club like Steve Ganson and his draw full of tissot watches and his mob currying for favours and a trip to Australia.
    Well this is hard to disagree with.

    What's the point of trying to improve standards when you can just sit on a decent wedge & not have to do anything?

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    This weeks back chat on freesports was interesting.

    They were fully supportive of referees, it was good to hear

    IME players and x players will just accept refs decisions, they understand we need them, they make mistakes and justbget on with it

    Another point, some fans don't know all the rules, or re start options, why and when the touch judge puts their flag up etc. Yet they then have a voice to make judgements on something they don't really know, theirs is not a voice of authority

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    The rule about only the captain speaking to the ref is a key one here in my view. The problem then is arseh**** like Hill. I love the rule that we have from hockey about the captain getting 10 mins if a team persistently infringes.But refs need to be supported and the RFL be more transparent.Touch judges need to sort offside.
    Learned comment from The Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    This weeks back chat on freesports was interesting.

    They were fully supportive of referees, it was good to hear

    IME players and x players will just accept refs decisions, they understand we need them, they make mistakes and justbget on with it

    Another point, some fans don't know all the rules, or re start options, why and when the touch judge puts their flag up etc. Yet they then have a voice to make judgements on something they don't really know, theirs is not a voice of authority
    Given that the only reasons those referees are paid to do the job they do is because of fans paying to watch a game of RL, then they're perfectly entitled to pass judgements or voice opinion on the decisions they make, in precisely the same way they are entitled to voice opinions on player and coaching performance. Yes, some might not know all of the rules (certainly the daft moo who sits a few seats down from me doesn't) but we're not talking the odd dissenting voice at a game here.

    Not sure if you wrote your third line correctly but the idea that players 'just accept refs decisions' is just evidently untrue. Watch any game (live or on TV) and you'll see players of all teams back-chatting, arm waving, complaining, and at times just outright ignoring officials.

    I'm supportive of referees in that we equally wouldn't have a game without them and it's a incredibly tough job to do. Like anyone in any job I expect mistakes to be made, they're not robots. However I don't think it's unreasonable to also expect continual improvement. Whether that's in terms of fitness, off-the-field professionalism, interpretation of rules, consistency, positioning, or simply just reducing the number of mistakes. There are elements of that which have seen little or no improvement since referees turned professional. There is also little evidence of appropriate leadership and governance around the officiating team and its performance. That warrants criticism.

    This isn't primary school where it's the taking part that counts. On Friday there are three games where careers and mortgages are on the line. 90% of the outcome of that is within the control of the players involved. If they make mistakes there are consequences but ultimately it is themselves who are affected. If the referees make mistakes, sure some of those might not have any impact on the result, but if they choose not to use the video ref at a critical moment or they're not fit enough to be in line to call a forward pass in the lead up to a winning try then that isn't acceptable when the people making those mistakes are untouchable and completely unaffected by it. If we're happy for officials not to improve then frankly we're part of the problem.

    The idea that you think 'our game hates refs' is fairly offensive to be honest. You might think all is rosy and there's no need to look at ways to improve standards, but if you stand still you go backwards. That applies across all elements of business and sport, not just RL referees. If you don't have strong performance and governance structures and you make any aspect of the game immune to criticism as you seem to advocate, then standards will drop. That's human nature. When standards drop, attendances drop, sponsorship drops, media coverage drops, income drop, wages drop, standards drop... repeat ad nauseum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    This weeks back chat on freesports was interesting.

    They were fully supportive of referees, it was good to hear

    IME players and x players will just accept refs decisions, they understand we need them, they make mistakes and justbget on with it

    Another point, some fans don't know all the rules, or re start options, why and when the touch judge puts their flag up etc. Yet they then have a voice to make judgements on something they don't really know, theirs is not a voice of authority
    Your 3rd sentence is bovine excrement, players are not just accepting their decision, they are questioning it constantly, like us fans they cannot understand the decision of the referees, more players are protesting decisions either verbally or through body language, throwing their arms up etc. As for your comment some fans dont know all the rules, so in essence they cannot have a voice? I find that a highly laughable pretence, i pay for my ticket, i have watched enough games over the years, played when i was a kid, to be able to have a view on what is going on, it doesnt take a genius to see someone stood 2 yards in front of the ref and call for them to be called offside. What Private Pyle has said is right and i fannot agree with him more, if it is difficult to improve the refs, try and improve the system in which they are used to attempt to limit mistakes made, because at the end of the day, bad decisions can ruin livelihoods, especially this weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Your 3rd sentence is bovine excrement, players are not just accepting their decision, they are questioning it constantly, like us fans they cannot understand the decision of the referees, more players are protesting decisions either verbally or through body language, throwing their arms up etc. As for your comment some fans dont know all the rules, so in essence they cannot have a voice? I find that a highly laughable pretence, i pay for my ticket, i have watched enough games over the years, played when i was a kid, to be able to have a view on what is going on, it doesnt take a genius to see someone stood 2 yards in front of the ref and call for them to be called offside. What Private Pyle has said is right and i fannot agree with him more, if it is difficult to improve the refs, try and improve the system in which they are used to attempt to limit mistakes made, because at the end of the day, bad decisions can ruin livelihoods, especially this weekend.
    While I don't agree with Upside's statement that players just accept decisions, I can see where he's coming from with this.

    I would say that the fact that fans are consistently outraged with the ref is not a reliable barometer of how well or badly the ref is performing. Where I sit fans around me kick off at pretty much every decision that goes against Saints (sometimes, in the heat of the moment, myself included). Most of these decisions, when viewed in the cold light of day, are correct. Twitter and forums like this one overflow on weekends with fans accusing refs of either incompetence or bias, yet one hardly ever sees a fan admitting that their own team has benefited from this. Referees make mistakes - always have and always will.

    I'm not saying, by the way, that fans shouldn't have a voice or be able to let off a bit of steam (within reason). I'm saying that what fans say about referees is not a good measure of how good or bad they are. I would also say that the most obvious way to improve refereeing standards is to get more people refereeing from grass roots up, but the culture of referee bashing makes that a seriously difficult task. Good luck finding people who are willing to give up their Saturday on a voluntary basis in order to be insulted for two hours.

    The RFL could make life a lot easier for themselves by communicating more clearly how the refs are working, though. You mention that it doesn't take a genius to see someone stood 2 yards in front of the referee. Very often when this is the case the referee is actually standing 12m back from the play-the-ball, so the line is still onside. What I suspect is happening is that a) the ref is stepping back a bit so that he can look directly at the ruck while still having a decent idea from his peripheral vision that the players in the middle third are not more than two metres in front of him, and b) the linsemen are watching the edges for offside and communicating with him over the earpiece when need be. If the ref was in the line he would need to look left and right along the line to make sure everyone was on, at which time he would not be seeing what was going on at the ruck. But I can only say that I suspect this, as the RFL has never told us anything about it - the refs just started doing it. I think a lot of uproar could be dampened if the RFL were just clearer in their communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Your 3rd sentence is bovine excrement, players are not just accepting their decision, they are questioning it constantly, like us fans they cannot understand the decision of the referees, more players are protesting decisions either verbally or through body language, throwing their arms up etc. As for your comment some fans dont know all the rules, so in essence they cannot have a voice? I find that a highly laughable pretence, i pay for my ticket, i have watched enough games over the years, played when i was a kid, to be able to have a view on what is going on, it doesnt take a genius to see someone stood 2 yards in front of the ref and call for them to be called offside. What Private Pyle has said is right and i fannot agree with him more, if it is difficult to improve the refs, try and improve the system in which they are used to attempt to limit mistakes made, because at the end of the day, bad decisions can ruin livelihoods, especially this weekend.
    The third sentence referring to players was when you talk to them, not during the game, have you watched the program I am referring to?

    And I stand by my comment that many fans do not know all the rules, you may be entitled to a voice, but it doesn't mean it carries any weight in the judgement of an officials performance, it's just another opinion
    For example, being two yards in front of the ref doesn't mean you are offside, that's a great example of not knowing what the officials are doing yet claiming they are getting it wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    While I don't agree with Upside's statement that players just accept decisions, I can see where he's coming from with this.

    I would say that the fact that fans are consistently outraged with the ref is not a reliable barometer of how well or badly the ref is performing. Where I sit fans around me kick off at pretty much every decision that goes against Saints (sometimes, in the heat of the moment, myself included). Most of these decisions, when viewed in the cold light of day, are correct. Twitter and forums like this one overflow on weekends with fans accusing refs of either incompetence or bias, yet one hardly ever sees a fan admitting that their own team has benefited from this. Referees make mistakes - always have and always will.

    I'm not saying, by the way, that fans shouldn't have a voice or be able to let off a bit of steam (within reason). I'm saying that what fans say about referees is not a good measure of how good or bad they are. I would also say that the most obvious way to improve refereeing standards is to get more people refereeing from grass roots up, but the culture of referee bashing makes that a seriously difficult task. Good luck finding people who are willing to give up their Saturday on a voluntary basis in order to be insulted for two hours.

    The RFL could make life a lot easier for themselves by communicating more clearly how the refs are working, though. You mention that it doesn't take a genius to see someone stood 2 yards in front of the referee. Very often when this is the case the referee is actually standing 12m back from the play-the-ball, so the line is still onside. What I suspect is happening is that a) the ref is stepping back a bit so that he can look directly at the ruck while still having a decent idea from his peripheral vision that the players in the middle third are not more than two metres in front of him, and b) the linsemen are watching the edges for offside and communicating with him over the earpiece when need be. If the ref was in the line he would need to look left and right along the line to make sure everyone was on, at which time he would not be seeing what was going on at the ruck. But I can only say that I suspect this, as the RFL has never told us anything about it - the refs just started doing it. I think a lot of uproar could be dampened if the RFL were just clearer in their communication.
    Edit, sorry quoted wrong post, this post is actually very good and I think shares my sentiments and extends the points I was making.

    I wonder why players ' throw their arms up' they trying to gain an advantage for their team by appearing hard done to? Or simply being chivalrous in wanting to uphold the laws of the game accurately? For example do they do it when they win a penalty and they shouldn't have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Edit, sorry quoted wrong post

    I wonder why players ' throw their arms up' they trying to gain an advantage for their team by appearing hard done to? Or simply being chivalrous in wanting to uphold the laws of the game accurately? For example do they do it when they win a penalty and they shouldn't have?
    EDIT - just seen your edit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    Given that the only reasons those referees are paid to do the job they do is because of fans paying to watch a game of RL, then they're perfectly entitled to pass judgements or voice opinion on the decisions they make, in precisely the same way they are entitled to voice opinions on player and coaching performance. Yes, some might not know all of the rules (certainly the daft moo who sits a few seats down from me doesn't) but we're not talking the odd dissenting voice at a game here.
    Of course fans are important, although Sky contribute a lot to income not just attendances and yes they are entitled to their voice, I never said they were not, just said often it doesn't carry any authority as it's not always an informed unbiased and impartial assessment of a refs performance, so quite often should be taken with a pinch of salt. Just because many fans make the same complaints doesn't make it a correct opinion


    Not sure if you wrote your third line correctly but the idea that players 'just accept refs decisions' is just evidently untrue. Watch any game (live or on TV) and you'll see players of all teams back-chatting, arm waving, complaining, and at times just outright ignoring officials.
    made my point above, watch the program I am referring to, current players saying get on with it, your talking about during a game, the players are not simply checking the rules are upheld but are seeking to gain an advantage for their team, for example how many dive at the play of the ball or strip and hope it appears like a dropped ball, again they are not a fair barometer of the ref having a good or bad game. If you rely on players throwing up their arms when considering the refs performance then you need to make a better effort to watch the game and ignore antics of players trying it on


    I'm supportive of referees in that we equally wouldn't have a game without them and it's a incredibly tough job to do. Like anyone in any job I expect mistakes to be made, they're not robots. However I don't think it's unreasonable to also expect continual improvement. Whether that's in terms of fitness, off-the-field professionalism, interpretation of rules, consistency, positioning, or simply just reducing the number of mistakes. There are elements of that which have seen little or no improvement since referees turned professional. There is also little evidence of appropriate leadership and governance around the officiating team and its performance. That warrants criticism.the game is faster, being fully pro helps their fitness, not really going to make a difference when seeing a knock on or not?

    This isn't primary school where it's the taking part that counts. On Friday there are three games where careers and mortgages are on the line. 90% of the outcome of that is within the control of the players involved. If they make mistakes there are consequences but ultimately it is themselves who are affected. If the referees make mistakes, sure some of those might not have any impact on the result, but if they choose not to use the video ref at a critical moment or they're not fit enough to be in line to call a forward pass in the lead up to a winning try then that isn't acceptable when the people making those mistakes are untouchable and completely unaffected by it. If we're happy for officials not to improve then frankly we're part of the problem.
    mortgages on the line as they have a very short career, they may play for 15 years if they are lucky, most morgages are 25/30 years so they need to work after rugby anyway, if their club goes down then it's not the fault of one officials decision, they play all year, make many decisions throughout that year, don't put the paying of a players mortgage as the refs responsibility, it's a very weak argument and imo try's to claim players are victims in all this. They play sport, we go to work, sometimes we lose our jobs sometimes we don't, I'm sympathetic as I think we all are but it's the way professional sport is. If you don't want relegation then go to licensing, not an issue then


    The idea that you think 'our game hates refs' is fairly offensive to be honest. You might think all is rosy and there's no need to look at ways to improve standards, but if you stand still you go backwards. That applies across all elements of business and sport, not just RL referees. If you don't have strong performance and governance structures and you make any aspect of the game immune to criticism as you seem to advocate, then standards will drop. That's human nature. When standards drop, attendances drop, sponsorship drops, media coverage drops, income drop, wages drop, standards drop... repeat ad nauseum.

    I don't 'think' the game hates refs it's very very obvious, you for example have created a long post challenging a small post I put up, this is a tread on referees standards, absolutely obvious there is an issue with fans perceptions of refs 100% , if you find it offensive then so be it I'm afraid.
    You advocate critisim claiming it to improve performance, much of what I witness isn't criticism but abuse, there's a big difference. Also critisim doesn't usually improve performance, but constructive criticism does in the right supportive environment. That's not posting on forums or social media, it's not hurling abuse from the stands, it's not public shaming of officials who make mistakes, its a controlled private and supportive process to help people improve, like most successful organisations do. The claim of attendances dropping is a moot point, championship is up 30% . Now I bet nobody is claiming it's gone up because of refs and the RFL, but if it drops I'm sure people will say it has dropped because of them. These are emotive claims without foundation.


    I have made the point numerous times, if you remove yourself from the constant fans negativity, stop watching in the hope of being disgusted at a refs decision, if we stop trying to find new ways to slag of our own governing body and just go and watch a game of rugby, enjoy the players giving their all, accept before the game the ref will miss some calls, ignore the fact the rfl didn't put a poster up promoting the game and just enjoy the sport I'm sure the experience will be far more positive
    There is lots of fantastic rugby at all levels, get behind them talk it up and share the positives not just complain, we may stop the cycle of negativity many RL fans seem to enjoy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    The third sentence referring to players was when you talk to them, not during the game, have you watched the program I am referring to?

    And I stand by my comment that many fans do not know all the rules, you may be entitled to a voice, but it doesn't mean it carries any weight in the judgement of an officials performance, it's just another opinion
    For example, being two yards in front of the ref doesn't mean you are offside, that's a great example of not knowing what the officials are doing yet claiming they are getting it wrong
    No, i havent seen it.

    You may stand by it, i stand by mine, i never said my voice carried any weight in the officials performance being judged, however i am entitled, like any other fan, to have an opinion on what i see. As for being 2 yards in front of the ref not meaning you are offside, according to the rules it actually does, the rule is:

    Indicating ten metres The Referee should usually position himself ten metres behind and to one side of the point at which the ball is played as a guide to the team not in possession. If tackling is excessively keen or play is unnecessarily rough, the referee may forsake the ten metres position in order to be nearer the players involved in the tackle.

    If they want to change the rule, then change it, but until they do if someone is stood in front of the ref i will shout for them to be called offside, the refs are there to apply the rule not make it up, ie the 12 metre they seem to be trying to do now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    No, i havent seen it.

    You may stand by it, i stand by mine, i never said my voice carried any weight in the officials performance being judged, however i am entitled, like any other fan, to have an opinion on what i see. As for being 2 yards in front of the ref not meaning you are offside, according to the rules it actually does, the rule is:

    Indicating ten metres The Referee should usually position himself ten metres behind and to one side of the point at which the ball is played as a guide to the team not in possession. If tackling is excessively keen or play is unnecessarily rough, the referee may forsake the ten metres position in order to be nearer the players involved in the tackle.

    If they want to change the rule, then change it, but until they do if someone is stood in front of the ref i will shout for them to be called offside, the refs are there to apply the rule not make it up, ie the 12 metre they seem to be trying to do now.
    And I never said you or anyone else was not entitled to their opinion??

    If the player is not involved in play, the ref will often not blow because they want to keep the game flowing. There has been much critisim of refs stopping and starting the game, blowing when they don't need to, this is a way of keeping it flowing if it doesn't affect the game. You may not agree, I'm not saying I do, just saying the way it is and why fans are not the best judge of an officials performance, therefore lost of people complaining doesn't mean an official had a bad game, just means more people don't know the rules and are not impartial as they are blinded by their own team

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I don't 'think' the game hates refs it's very very obvious, you for example have created a long post challenging a small post I put up, this is a tread on referees standards, absolutely obvious there is an issue with fans perceptions of refs 100% , if you find it offensive then so be it I'm afraid.
    You advocate critisim claiming it to improve performance, much of what I witness isn't criticism but abuse, there's a big difference. Also critisim doesn't usually improve performance, but constructive criticism does in the right supportive environment. That's not posting on forums or social media, it's not hurling abuse from the stands, it's not public shaming of officials who make mistakes, its a controlled private and supportive process to help people improve, like most successful organisations do. The claim of attendances dropping is a moot point, championship is up 30% . Now I bet nobody is claiming it's gone up because of refs and the RFL, but if it drops I'm sure people will say it has dropped because of them. These are emotive claims without foundation.


    I have made the point numerous times, if you remove yourself from the constant fans negativity, stop watching in the hope of being disgusted at a refs decision, if we stop trying to find new ways to slag of our own governing body and just go and watch a game of rugby, enjoy the players giving their all, accept before the game the ref will miss some calls, ignore the fact the rfl didn't put a poster up promoting the game and just enjoy the sport I'm sure the experience will be far more positive
    There is lots of fantastic rugby at all levels, get behind them talk it up and share the positives not just complain, we may stop the cycle of negativity many RL fans seem to enjoy
    I'm not sure whether you're being disingenous here or you just haven't read my post properly. Nowhere have I or will I advocate abuse of an official. Let's get that straight right away. Nowhere in my post does abuse get mentioned so quite why you've gone down that route in response is a little odd.

    Secondly I never said criticism improves performance as you've claimed. If you go back and read it properly, you'll see I said criticism is justified if people believe, as I and many others do, that standards have not improved under professionalism and that governance and performance structures around officiating in the sport are not at the level required. That does not mean they'll improve as a result of my criticism? No. As someone who contributes to their wages am I entitled to comment on their performance on a discussion forum with a topic about the standard of referees? Absolutely.

    Re "the game is faster, being fully pro helps their fitness, not really going to make a difference when seeing a knock on or not"
    Disagree completely. If you're not fit enough to get into position to see the knock on then absolutely fitness can impact it. Certainly not the be-all-and-end-all but if the game is faster, then surely referees need to be faster also. Both physically and mentally - or have two of them doing half as much for example. Some of our referees are demonstrably not fit enough.

    The term of a mortgage is irrelevant given that you have to pay it every month. Many RL contracts are null and void following relegation. I also clearly stated that for the most part the outcome is in the hands of the players. I also did not claim players are victims in all this. Seriously what on earth were you reading? Players continually make a referees life far more difficult than it should be and I've commented on that topic previously. But refereeing decisions can, and do, have an impact on results. As per the games this week, one result, one point, one mistake can be the difference between SL and Championship rugby next season. To simply dismiss that potential impact as being perfectly acceptable seems counter-intuitive. My original point was that whereas the people impacted by a players mistake are themselves, the referees are not impacted by theirs.

    This isn't being negative for the sake of being negative. I'm perfectly capable of going to an RL match and enjoying myself regardless of refereeing performance, there are many many positives in the world of RL. But that does not mean that I'm prepared to bury my head in the sand and refuse to pass comment on a thread about THE STANDARD OF REFEREEING purely because my view on this particular topic isn't a positive one? No.

    The idea that everything will be fine if we all think positively and ignore any negatives about any aspect of the game is, IMO, a sure fire way of the sport going the way of the dodos.

    It's like the saying 'if it isn't broke don't fix it'. Total nonsense. If it isn't perfect, improve it. That applies to refereeing or any other aspect of the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    And I never said you or anyone else was not entitled to their opinion??

    If the player is not involved in play, the ref will often not blow because they want to keep the game flowing. There has been much critisim of refs stopping and starting the game, blowing when they don't need to, this is a way of keeping it flowing if it doesn't affect the game. You may not agree, I'm not saying I do, just saying the way it is and why fans are not the best judge of an officials performance, therefore lost of people complaining doesn't mean an official had a bad game, just means more people don't know the rules and are not impartial as they are blinded by their own team
    You said:

    Another point, some fans don't know all the rules, or re start options, why and when the touch judge puts their flag up etc. Yet they then have a voice to make judgements on something they don't really know, theirs is not a voice of authority

    Which I interpret, rightly or wrongly, as if you do not know all the rules you should not be shouting for things, the voice of authority comment seems intended to belittle peoples opinion, whether that was your intention or not is for you to explain.

    In my opinion a ref should start the game setting their stall out on what they will accept, if a player is offside, like mcshane was the entire game, call it early and they should get back onside. You say they want to keep the game flowing, a slow and messy ruck area does not allow that to happen, players holding down slow the game down, would you not agree the ruck area does need speeding up and improving?

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    Upside reminds me of a politician. You're ok having an opinion as long as it's the same as his and if it's not you don't know what you're talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    I'm not sure whether you're being disingenous here or you just haven't read my post properly. Nowhere have I or will I advocate abuse of an official. Let's get that straight right away. Nowhere in my post does abuse get mentioned so quite why you've gone down that route in response is a little odd.because you alluded to critisim when in fact much of what is heard is abuse t

    Secondly I never said criticism improves performance as you've claimed. If you go back and read it properly, you'll see I said criticism is justified if people believe, as I and many others do, that standards have not improved under professionalism and that governance and performance structures around officiating in the sport are not at the level required. That does not mean they'll improve as a result of my criticism? No. As someone who contributes to their wages am I entitled to comment on their performance on a discussion forum with a topic about the standard of referees? Absolutely.
    Nobody said you cannot comment, certainly not me so no idea what point your making, whether I value your opinion is different entirely. You mentioned something to the affect that organisations and business need critisim so they don't stagnate, so perfectly reasonable to respond as I did

    Re "the game is faster, being fully pro helps their fitness, not really going to make a difference when seeing a knock on or not"
    Disagree completely. If you're not fit enough to get into position to see the knock on then absolutely fitness can impact it. Certainly not the be-all-and-end-all but if the game is faster, then surely referees need to be faster also. Both physically and mentally - or have two of them doing half as much for example. Some of our referees are demonstrably not fit enough.
    Yes fitnes can impact on performance as I stated, but if your there looking at a knock on, being full time or not doesn't mean you see better? That was the point and it was quite clear, I can only imagine you falsely claimed to not understand
    The term of a mortgage is irrelevant given that you have to pay it every month. Many RL contracts are null and void following relegation. I also clearly stated that for the most part the outcome is in the hands of the players. I also did not claim players are victims in all this. Seriously what on earth were you reading? Players continually make a referees life far more difficult than it should be and I've commented on that topic previously. But refereeing decisions can, and do, have an impact on results. As per the games this week, one result, one point, one mistake can be the difference between SL and Championship rugby next season. To simply dismiss that potential impact as being perfectly acceptable seems counter-intuitive. My original point was that whereas the people impacted by a players mistake are themselves, the referees are not impacted by theirs.wrong, referees are impacted by their decisions, they can be stood down eventually could lose their full time status. I agree there should be more people knocking on the door to take these positions, more people usually means better standards, but the abuse and public slating even if you call it criticism does not attract more officials, quite the opposite, so your continual slating, starting threads, joining in the witch hunt will not improve the situation but make it worse. If you want standards to improve, don't enable the slating of refs continually, don't support those who say they want them accountable by which they mean punished, support them get behind them particiularly the young ones at grass roots. I've seen them take appalling abuse from adults, all of which is claimed to be justified as the ref has cost them the game, and I'm talking under 11s etc.

    This isn't being negative for the sake of being negative. I'm perfectly capable of going to an RL match and enjoying myself regardless of refereeing performance, there are many many positives in the world of RL. But that does not mean that I'm prepared to bury my head in the sand and refuse to pass comment on a thread about THE STANDARD OF REFEREEING purely because my view on this particular topic isn't a positive one? No.theres many other things you could talk about, but you only want to point out to everyone refs are rubbish

    The idea that everything will be fine if we all think positively and ignore any negatives about any aspect of the game is, IMO, a sure fire way of the sport going the way of the dodos.
    Nope, concentrating on all the negatives, talking only about what isn't good is the way to kill the game from the inside, imo negative fans are doing more harm than anyone else
    It's like the saying 'if it isn't broke don't fix it'. Total nonsense. If it isn't perfect, improve it. That applies to refereeing or any other aspect of the sport.
    nomproblem with improving, but constant moaning doesn't improve anything, action does, so all those saying how crap the officials are go and have a go, we need you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    You said:

    Another point, some fans don't know all the rules, or re start options, why and when the touch judge puts their flag up etc. Yet they then have a voice to make judgements on something they don't really know, theirs is not a voice of authority

    Which I interpret, rightly or wrongly, as if you do not know all the rules you should not be shouting for things, the voice of authority comment seems intended to belittle peoples opinion, whether that was your intention or not is for you to explain.

    In my opinion a ref should start the game setting their stall out on what they will accept, if a player is offside, like mcshane was the entire game, call it early and they should get back onside. You say they want to keep the game flowing, a slow and messy ruck area does not allow that to happen, players holding down slow the game down, would you not agree the ruck area does need speeding up and improving?

    No belittling intended, just stating the way it is, some fans do not know the rules, so a one sided fan with no experience of playing, o experience of coaching or officiating with some knowledge of rules from supporting their team only does not make the best judge and their opinion although perfectly reasonable to share should be listened to with that in mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    You mentioned something to the affect that organisations and business need critisim so they don't stagnate, so perfectly reasonable to respond as I did
    No I didn't. I said I felt there was a need to improve standards and made the point that if you stand still then standards eventually go backwards. You may be of the view that standards don't need to be improved, that's your opinion, and we disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    theres many other things you could talk about, but you only want to point out to everyone refs are rubbish
    I can and do talk about other things, on this forum and elsewhere, many positives. So this sentence is frankly a lie, plain and simple. I do not only want to point out to everyone that refs are rubbish. In fact, I praised a referee earlier in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Nope, concentrating on all the negatives, talking only about what isn't good is the way to kill the game from the inside, imo negative fans are doing more harm than anyone else
    On this particular topic my view is a fairly negative one. IMO there are few positives currently on the standard of refereeing which is the topic of this thread. More broadly speaking, I agree that overwhelming negativity within the sport is harmful, but that's more that people refuse to accept any positives on any topic at all. That does not mean every negative view point should be dismissed, particularly when in this case you're doing it to someone who generally holds a balanced view across a wide range of topics about the sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    nomproblem with improving, but constant moaning doesn't improve anything, action does, so all those saying how crap the officials are go and have a go, we need you
    As I've already said earlier in this thread, I would be absolutely rubbish as an RL referee. Tried it once in football and was rubbish, no chance I could keep up in RL. But regardless, I'm not 'constantly moaning' as you put it. I'm merely passing a view on the standard of refereeing which is the topic of this thread.

    Out of interest, did you used to post on this forum as Wanderer? Remarkably similar posting style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    No I didn't. I said I felt there was a need to improve standards and made the point that if you stand still then standards eventually go backwards. You may be of the view that standards don't need to be improved, that's your opinion, and we disagree.

    I can and do talk about other things, on this forum and elsewhere, many positives. So this sentence is frankly a lie, plain and simple. I do not only want to point out to everyone that refs are rubbish. In fact, I praised a referee earlier in this thread.
    On this particular topic my view is a fairly negative one. IMO there are few positives currently on the standard of refereeing which is the topic of this thread. More broadly speaking, I agree that overwhelming negativity within the sport is harmful, but that's more that people refuse to accept any positives on any topic at all. That does not mean every negative view point should be dismissed, particularly when in this case you're doing it to someone who generally holds a balanced view across a wide range of topics about the sport.
    As I've already said earlier in this thread, I would be absolutely rubbish as an RL referee. Tried it once in football and was rubbish, no chance I could keep up in RL. But regardless, I'm not 'constantly moaning' as you put it. I'm merely passing a view on the standard of refereeing which is the topic of this thread.
    Out of interest, did you used to post on this forum as Wanderer? Remarkably similar posting style.
    Never said I don't support improvement in standards that's entirely your assumption.

    You may claim your just passing an opinion, but it's one you've made strongly several times across this thread. So perfectly reasonable to challenge your views. I may be a little strong in my replies, and may mix up others posts with yours, it's difficult to keep up as so many people post negatively on officials and often RL as a whole, but I firmly believe in what I'm saying and stand by it, not pig ignorant as I have occasionally changed my view due to responses to my posts but in terms of raising standards supporting grass roots refs is absolutely paramount, abuse or constant criticism at higher levels do trickle down and discourage new people from entering and enable abuse at amateur youth games. We should imo call out all abuse, heavy vocal 'feedback' and support refs like union.

    No I have no idea who wanderer is, but he sounds like a top guy, I hope he returns

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Never said I don't support improvement in standards that's entirely your assumption.

    You may claim your just passing an opinion, but it's one you've made strongly several times across this thread. So perfectly reasonable to challenge your views. I may be a little strong in my replies, and may mix up others posts with yours, it's difficult to keep up as so many people post negatively on officials and often RL as a whole, but I firmly believe in what I'm saying and stand by it, not pig ignorant as I have occasionally changed my view due to responses to my posts but in terms of raising standards supporting grass roots refs is absolutely paramount, abuse or constant criticism at higher levels do trickle down and discourage new people from entering and enable abuse at amateur youth games. We should imo call out all abuse, heavy vocal 'feedback' and support refs like union.

    No I have no idea who wanderer is, but he sounds like a top guy, I hope he returns
    It wasn't about supporting improvements, rather it was whether you felt improvements were needed as you've dismissed numerous opinions of feeling improvements are required as just being negative and moaning (intentional or otherwise). Quite happy for my views to be challenged, but with the greatest of respect you haven't really been doing that for the most part. Claiming I'm posting numerous things which I hadn't and saying we need to be more positive isn't really challenging a view point.

    One thing I absolutely will agree with you on is the calling out of abuse of officials at all levels of the game. Totally unacceptable. I'll probably leave this thread at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    It wasn't about supporting improvements, rather it was whether you felt improvements were needed as you've dismissed numerous opinions of feeling improvements are required as just being negative and moaning (intentional or otherwise). Quite happy for my views to be challenged, but with the greatest of respect you haven't really been doing that for the most part. Claiming I'm posting numerous things which I hadn't and saying we need to be more positive isn't really challenging a view point.

    One thing I absolutely will agree with you on is the calling out of abuse of officials at all levels of the game. Totally unacceptable. I'll probably leave this thread at that.

    I think all my challenges have been valid, your point that posters feel 'improvements are required' is a little misleading as it suggests it's a polite observation when it's mostly highly exaggerated confrontation personal posts against officials.

    It's an obvious statement to suggest they could do their job better, unless anyone is operating at 100% mistake free we can always try to improve, that isn't the same as saying the amount of mistakes are satisfactory and expected in a fast paced sport, or does it fall well below expected standards? Judgment of refs isn't very objective
    The conversation(I'm being polite I could call them rants) is often very personal, calling the personal ref, this is the issue at youth rugby league, I would ask everyone to consider how they would like their son or daughter to be treated in work if they made a mistake.

    Standards do not improve with rants or emotional outbursts in person, on social media or on forums, they change through structured support and development. I'm yet to see a structured development process that includes constant criticism and public claims of punishment, I mean accountability.

    I've have given valid approaches to improve despite claiming I haven't, that's support, calling out abuse, no public shaming, encouragement of youth officials, not going to press about a poor refs game which then trickles down. All of these points and I guess more that other posters have made would help improve standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Upside reminds me of a politician. You're ok having an opinion as long as it's the same as his and if it's not you don't know what you're talking about.
    And uses filibuster tactics when writing, so you can't be bothered contradicting him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    The rule about only the captain speaking to the ref is a key one here in my view.
    There's no such rule (or law)!

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