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    Default Just need to have my say

    I have now calmed down and sobered up and I now need somewhere to put down my thoughts that may turn into a rant...who knows

    So where better than here.

    I haven't read any more comments and more than happy for you to ignore this, but I have to get it off my chest as I am fed up with the rubbish being spouted on Facebook, twitter and other social media blaming individuals.

    First things first, congratulations to Warrington, they beat us with a better attitude
    and a better game plan, they were prepared to do whatever it takes to beat us and so many times
    Saints were almost through and the 1% ers from Warrington meant that they just managed to hold on to the player. they deserve the win.

    The following should be seen as observations and not excuses I am accepting the defeat no matter how much it hurts and I never realised London was so far away till this last coach ride home. Even further than the last ride home that took a similar time after the 27 - 0 defeat

    The referee team made some bewildering calls.
    The Morgan Knowles try - what could Hicks have seen that made him so certain - when after replays it clearly shows that he got the ball down
    The Percival try - the call was that Tiai had no control of the ball yet he took 2 steps with the ball clearly held in his hand before Murdoch-Masilla ripped it from him.
    Even given that he did lose control the first knock on came from a Warrington player into Tiai's hands, I do despair that a professional referee cannot see this when he is just looking at a video screen. On the field it is much harder, but really come on Thaler - how can you get it so wrong.
    The Regan Grace knock on to wipe the tackle count down - it clearly comes of Kings shoulder first so that is the knock-on. Again its a live call but I am expecting refs to get this right.

    But for me the next part is crucial - it didn't come across on the TV and I don't know if it was noticeable sat on the ends, but where I was sat - 3rd tier just behind the royal seats, between the 40 and half way - it was very clear that:

    Firstly the ref changed the way he kept the teams back, for St Helens it was always 12m for Warrington it was somewhere between 10 and 12 m depending on where in the set he was, the first 2 or 3 play the balls were always 10m.

    But secondly the way that both teams treated where they went, Saints were pretty much always with the ref, forming a great line (not always but mostly) but Warrington were not bothered where the ref was they were up to 3 m offside no matter if the ref was at 10 or 12m.
    The ref should have penalised this to stop it happening, but him and his touch-judges just ignored it, which meant that Saints never had time and space to work in.
    But this brings me to the main point of this part
    Saints seem incapable of overcoming this type of scenario, each time over the last few years when faced with a defence that isn't kept back 10 there is nobody who takes control of the situation and starts to make them think with chips, kicks through - lets come up with a strategy to deal with this Saints. It happens far too often to ignore it.

    I have seen that Saints have lost 17 finals and semi finals in the last 12 years (we have also won 7 in that time) but why is this?
    The problem I can see is that in that time we have mainly gone with rookie type coaches, who are just learning their trade, this is really working at the week to week level where it is all about the process, squad rotation and making sure we win way more than we lose.
    But when it comes to finals they don't have the experience to see how they need to change how they work in the weeks coming up to it.

    This is clearly shown in Justin Holbrook's time here he is fantastic at getting the team working through the season, but is nave in his approach to finals, last year the enthusiasm of both Catalan and Warrington, combined with bad games by Saints meant we didn't reach a final.
    This year in the CC Semi we were very lucky to meet a team who were a whole division below us, even then their enthusiasm and willingness to play for each other made it hard for us.
    Yesterday we saw exactly the same scenario, he will learn what do, but he only has 4 games or 6 weeks now to get this right at Saints - can he do it?

    Resting players for the sake of it is great throughout the season, but RL is a game of tough men who need to be at their physical and mental peak in the big games, he should never have rested players in the weeks before the final, they should have been playing to maintain both their game fitness and the combinations with the other players. That is a tough lesson for us all to take, the fact we were 14 and 16 points clear meant we could rest and not worry about the result. But what it did mean is that (unless the player was genuinely hurt - in that case he shouldn't have played at Wembley) we had the opportunity to take risks such as making sure the 4 players were back up to speed in the preceding games by playing them for 40 or 29 mins and asking other players to play longer minutes.
    We do not need to rest anyone who can play - hopefully they will get 2 weeks rest before the Grand Final

    So how do we break this cycle, well it may be too late now, but we have the players, the structure, the ability, what we now need is a proven coach who can take us to that next level. The only other alternative is making sure that any new coach is tied up to 4 years (but that is a gamble in itself) so he can learn here and get us to change - even if it is the hard way by loosing another Final (God I hope not)

    If you are still here then thanks for reading - lets get to Old Trafford and have a different mental attitude, that at the end of the day separates winners from losers.

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    Great read well thought out

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    Quote Originally Posted by st. etrigan View Post
    I have now calmed down and sobered up and I now need somewhere to put down my thoughts that may turn into a rant...who knows

    So where better than here.

    I haven't read any more comments and more than happy for you to ignore this, but I have to get it off my chest as I am fed up with the rubbish being spouted on Facebook, twitter and other social media blaming individuals.

    First things first, congratulations to Warrington, they beat us with a better attitude
    and a better game plan, they were prepared to do whatever it takes to beat us and so many times
    Saints were almost through and the 1% ers from Warrington meant that they just managed to hold on to the player. they deserve the win.

    The following should be seen as observations and not excuses I am accepting the defeat no matter how much it hurts and I never realised London was so far away till this last coach ride home. Even further than the last ride home that took a similar time after the 27 - 0 defeat

    The referee team made some bewildering calls.
    The Morgan Knowles try - what could Hicks have seen that made him so certain - when after replays it clearly shows that he got the ball down
    The Percival try - the call was that Tiai had no control of the ball yet he took 2 steps with the ball clearly held in his hand before Murdoch-Masilla ripped it from him.
    Even given that he did lose control the first knock on came from a Warrington player into Tiai's hands, I do despair that a professional referee cannot see this when he is just looking at a video screen. On the field it is much harder, but really come on Thaler - how can you get it so wrong.
    The Regan Grace knock on to wipe the tackle count down - it clearly comes of Kings shoulder first so that is the knock-on. Again its a live call but I am expecting refs to get this right.

    But for me the next part is crucial - it didn't come across on the TV and I don't know if it was noticeable sat on the ends, but where I was sat - 3rd tier just behind the royal seats, between the 40 and half way - it was very clear that:

    Firstly the ref changed the way he kept the teams back, for St Helens it was always 12m for Warrington it was somewhere between 10 and 12 m depending on where in the set he was, the first 2 or 3 play the balls were always 10m.

    But secondly the way that both teams treated where they went, Saints were pretty much always with the ref, forming a great line (not always but mostly) but Warrington were not bothered where the ref was they were up to 3 m offside no matter if the ref was at 10 or 12m.
    The ref should have penalised this to stop it happening, but him and his touch-judges just ignored it, which meant that Saints never had time and space to work in.
    But this brings me to the main point of this part
    Saints seem incapable of overcoming this type of scenario, each time over the last few years when faced with a defence that isn't kept back 10 there is nobody who takes control of the situation and starts to make them think with chips, kicks through - lets come up with a strategy to deal with this Saints. It happens far too often to ignore it.

    I have seen that Saints have lost 17 finals and semi finals in the last 12 years (we have also won 7 in that time) but why is this?
    The problem I can see is that in that time we have mainly gone with rookie type coaches, who are just learning their trade, this is really working at the week to week level where it is all about the process, squad rotation and making sure we win way more than we lose.
    But when it comes to finals they don't have the experience to see how they need to change how they work in the weeks coming up to it.

    This is clearly shown in Justin Holbrook's time here he is fantastic at getting the team working through the season, but is nave in his approach to finals, last year the enthusiasm of both Catalan and Warrington, combined with bad games by Saints meant we didn't reach a final.
    This year in the CC Semi we were very lucky to meet a team who were a whole division below us, even then their enthusiasm and willingness to play for each other made it hard for us.
    Yesterday we saw exactly the same scenario, he will learn what do, but he only has 4 games or 6 weeks now to get this right at Saints - can he do it?

    Resting players for the sake of it is great throughout the season, but RL is a game of tough men who need to be at their physical and mental peak in the big games, he should never have rested players in the weeks before the final, they should have been playing to maintain both their game fitness and the combinations with the other players. That is a tough lesson for us all to take, the fact we were 14 and 16 points clear meant we could rest and not worry about the result. But what it did mean is that (unless the player was genuinely hurt - in that case he shouldn't have played at Wembley) we had the opportunity to take risks such as making sure the 4 players were back up to speed in the preceding games by playing them for 40 or 29 mins and asking other players to play longer minutes.
    We do not need to rest anyone who can play - hopefully they will get 2 weeks rest before the Grand Final

    So how do we break this cycle, well it may be too late now, but we have the players, the structure, the ability, what we now need is a proven coach who can take us to that next level. The only other alternative is making sure that any new coach is tied up to 4 years (but that is a gamble in itself) so he can learn here and get us to change - even if it is the hard way by loosing another Final (God I hope not)

    If you are still here then thanks for reading - lets get to Old Trafford and have a different mental attitude, that at the end of the day separates winners from losers.
    Some great points there. Clearly thought that through. My hangover is getting worse by the minute. San Miguel will not be touched for a considerable amount of time.

    For me we don't have that 'edge to get us over the line. We aren't ruthless enough
    Dave Woods: the guy who makes Eddie Hemmings look like a decent commentator

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    Quote Originally Posted by st. etrigan View Post
    I have now calmed down and sobered up and I now need somewhere to put down my thoughts that may turn into a rant...who knows

    So where better than here.

    I haven't read any more comments and more than happy for you to ignore this, but I have to get it off my chest as I am fed up with the rubbish being spouted on Facebook, twitter and other social media blaming individuals.

    First things first, congratulations to Warrington, they beat us with a better attitude
    and a better game plan, they were prepared to do whatever it takes to beat us and so many times
    Saints were almost through and the 1% ers from Warrington meant that they just managed to hold on to the player. they deserve the win.

    The following should be seen as observations and not excuses I am accepting the defeat no matter how much it hurts and I never realised London was so far away till this last coach ride home. Even further than the last ride home that took a similar time after the 27 - 0 defeat

    The referee team made some bewildering calls.
    The Morgan Knowles try - what could Hicks have seen that made him so certain - when after replays it clearly shows that he got the ball down
    The Percival try - the call was that Tiai had no control of the ball yet he took 2 steps with the ball clearly held in his hand before Murdoch-Masilla ripped it from him.
    Even given that he did lose control the first knock on came from a Warrington player into Tiai's hands, I do despair that a professional referee cannot see this when he is just looking at a video screen. On the field it is much harder, but really come on Thaler - how can you get it so wrong.
    The Regan Grace knock on to wipe the tackle count down - it clearly comes of Kings shoulder first so that is the knock-on. Again its a live call but I am expecting refs to get this right.

    But for me the next part is crucial - it didn't come across on the TV and I don't know if it was noticeable sat on the ends, but where I was sat - 3rd tier just behind the royal seats, between the 40 and half way - it was very clear that:

    Firstly the ref changed the way he kept the teams back, for St Helens it was always 12m for Warrington it was somewhere between 10 and 12 m depending on where in the set he was, the first 2 or 3 play the balls were always 10m.

    But secondly the way that both teams treated where they went, Saints were pretty much always with the ref, forming a great line (not always but mostly) but Warrington were not bothered where the ref was they were up to 3 m offside no matter if the ref was at 10 or 12m.
    The ref should have penalised this to stop it happening, but him and his touch-judges just ignored it, which meant that Saints never had time and space to work in.
    But this brings me to the main point of this part
    Saints seem incapable of overcoming this type of scenario, each time over the last few years when faced with a defence that isn't kept back 10 there is nobody who takes control of the situation and starts to make them think with chips, kicks through - lets come up with a strategy to deal with this Saints. It happens far too often to ignore it.

    I have seen that Saints have lost 17 finals and semi finals in the last 12 years (we have also won 7 in that time) but why is this?
    The problem I can see is that in that time we have mainly gone with rookie type coaches, who are just learning their trade, this is really working at the week to week level where it is all about the process, squad rotation and making sure we win way more than we lose.
    But when it comes to finals they don't have the experience to see how they need to change how they work in the weeks coming up to it.

    This is clearly shown in Justin Holbrook's time here he is fantastic at getting the team working through the season, but is nave in his approach to finals, last year the enthusiasm of both Catalan and Warrington, combined with bad games by Saints meant we didn't reach a final.
    This year in the CC Semi we were very lucky to meet a team who were a whole division below us, even then their enthusiasm and willingness to play for each other made it hard for us.
    Yesterday we saw exactly the same scenario, he will learn what do, but he only has 4 games or 6 weeks now to get this right at Saints - can he do it?

    Resting players for the sake of it is great throughout the season, but RL is a game of tough men who need to be at their physical and mental peak in the big games, he should never have rested players in the weeks before the final, they should have been playing to maintain both their game fitness and the combinations with the other players. That is a tough lesson for us all to take, the fact we were 14 and 16 points clear meant we could rest and not worry about the result. But what it did mean is that (unless the player was genuinely hurt - in that case he shouldn't have played at Wembley) we had the opportunity to take risks such as making sure the 4 players were back up to speed in the preceding games by playing them for 40 or 29 mins and asking other players to play longer minutes.
    We do not need to rest anyone who can play - hopefully they will get 2 weeks rest before the Grand Final

    So how do we break this cycle, well it may be too late now, but we have the players, the structure, the ability, what we now need is a proven coach who can take us to that next level. The only other alternative is making sure that any new coach is tied up to 4 years (but that is a gamble in itself) so he can learn here and get us to change - even if it is the hard way by loosing another Final (God I hope not)

    If you are still here then thanks for reading - lets get to Old Trafford and have a different mental attitude, that at the end of the day separates winners from losers.
    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Some great points there. Clearly thought that through. My hangover is getting worse by the minute. San Miguel will not be touched for a considerable amount of time.

    For me we don't have that 'edge to get us over the line. We aren't ruthless enough
    I feel your pain brother, this heat isn't helping either. I'm only glad I had the foresight to change my flight to tomorrow morning as I can't think of much worse than being in a busy airport right now with screaming kids/scousers.

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    In The South Stand Ralph Fridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I feel your pain brother, this heat isn't helping either. I'm only glad I had the foresight to change my flight to tomorrow morning as I can't think of much worse than being in a busy airport right now with screaming kids/scousers.
    Think that's a wise move.

    Had a decent day yesterday. Just a pity about the 80 minutes
    Dave Woods: the guy who makes Eddie Hemmings look like a decent commentator

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Think that's a wise move.

    Had a decent day yesterday. Just a pity about the 80 minutes
    Fair play. Yesterday until the game was awful. I was pacing up and down from the moment I woke up. In fact my whole week has been crap until this afternoon.

    Had a nightmare on the Ebor meeting.
    Been busy sorting work stuff so no fishing, golf or gym.
    Everton.
    Saints.
    Hangover.

    Haha, sod it. I'll be glad to get back to work next week.

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    What this team lacks & has done for some time is an enforcer in the pack. Someone to put the fear of god into the opposition when its needed by fair means or using the dark arts !
    We need a Fozzard ,Nickle , Foggarty etc.
    A bit of spine & backbone with enough guile to win a war of attrition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zerohero1266 View Post
    What this team lacks & has done for some time is an enforcer in the pack. Someone to put the fear of god into the opposition when its needed by fair means or using the dark arts !
    We need a Fozzard ,Nickle , Foggarty etc.
    A bit of spine & backbone with enough guile to win a war of attrition.
    Sort of with you there zero, my dad who is long gone always said to win a final you need two stars, two street fighters
    and nine local lads that will tackle all day and die for the cause.We always lack energy in the big games probably down
    to nerves and a lack of leadership.i thought that was what our new antipodeans where supposed to offer. ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by st. etrigan View Post
    I have now calmed down and sobered up and I now need somewhere to put down my thoughts that may turn into a rant...who knows

    So where better than here.

    I haven't read any more comments and more than happy for you to ignore this, but I have to get it off my chest as I am fed up with the rubbish being spouted on Facebook, twitter and other social media blaming individuals.

    First things first, congratulations to Warrington, they beat us with a better attitude
    and a better game plan, they were prepared to do whatever it takes to beat us and so many times
    Saints were almost through and the 1% ers from Warrington meant that they just managed to hold on to the player. they deserve the win.

    The following should be seen as observations and not excuses I am accepting the defeat no matter how much it hurts and I never realised London was so far away till this last coach ride home. Even further than the last ride home that took a similar time after the 27 - 0 defeat

    The referee team made some bewildering calls.
    The Morgan Knowles try - what could Hicks have seen that made him so certain - when after replays it clearly shows that he got the ball down
    The Percival try - the call was that Tiai had no control of the ball yet he took 2 steps with the ball clearly held in his hand before Murdoch-Masilla ripped it from him.
    Even given that he did lose control the first knock on came from a Warrington player into Tiai's hands, I do despair that a professional referee cannot see this when he is just looking at a video screen. On the field it is much harder, but really come on Thaler - how can you get it so wrong.
    The Regan Grace knock on to wipe the tackle count down - it clearly comes of Kings shoulder first so that is the knock-on. Again its a live call but I am expecting refs to get this right.

    But for me the next part is crucial - it didn't come across on the TV and I don't know if it was noticeable sat on the ends, but where I was sat - 3rd tier just behind the royal seats, between the 40 and half way - it was very clear that:

    Firstly the ref changed the way he kept the teams back, for St Helens it was always 12m for Warrington it was somewhere between 10 and 12 m depending on where in the set he was, the first 2 or 3 play the balls were always 10m.

    But secondly the way that both teams treated where they went, Saints were pretty much always with the ref, forming a great line (not always but mostly) but Warrington were not bothered where the ref was they were up to 3 m offside no matter if the ref was at 10 or 12m.
    The ref should have penalised this to stop it happening, but him and his touch-judges just ignored it, which meant that Saints never had time and space to work in.
    But this brings me to the main point of this part
    Saints seem incapable of overcoming this type of scenario, each time over the last few years when faced with a defence that isn't kept back 10 there is nobody who takes control of the situation and starts to make them think with chips, kicks through - lets come up with a strategy to deal with this Saints. It happens far too often to ignore it.

    I have seen that Saints have lost 17 finals and semi finals in the last 12 years (we have also won 7 in that time) but why is this?
    The problem I can see is that in that time we have mainly gone with rookie type coaches, who are just learning their trade, this is really working at the week to week level where it is all about the process, squad rotation and making sure we win way more than we lose.
    But when it comes to finals they don't have the experience to see how they need to change how they work in the weeks coming up to it.

    This is clearly shown in Justin Holbrook's time here he is fantastic at getting the team working through the season, but is nave in his approach to finals, last year the enthusiasm of both Catalan and Warrington, combined with bad games by Saints meant we didn't reach a final.
    This year in the CC Semi we were very lucky to meet a team who were a whole division below us, even then their enthusiasm and willingness to play for each other made it hard for us.
    Yesterday we saw exactly the same scenario, he will learn what do, but he only has 4 games or 6 weeks now to get this right at Saints - can he do it?

    Resting players for the sake of it is great throughout the season, but RL is a game of tough men who need to be at their physical and mental peak in the big games, he should never have rested players in the weeks before the final, they should have been playing to maintain both their game fitness and the combinations with the other players. That is a tough lesson for us all to take, the fact we were 14 and 16 points clear meant we could rest and not worry about the result. But what it did mean is that (unless the player was genuinely hurt - in that case he shouldn't have played at Wembley) we had the opportunity to take risks such as making sure the 4 players were back up to speed in the preceding games by playing them for 40 or 29 mins and asking other players to play longer minutes.
    We do not need to rest anyone who can play - hopefully they will get 2 weeks rest before the Grand Final

    So how do we break this cycle, well it may be too late now, but we have the players, the structure, the ability, what we now need is a proven coach who can take us to that next level. The only other alternative is making sure that any new coach is tied up to 4 years (but that is a gamble in itself) so he can learn here and get us to change - even if it is the hard way by loosing another Final (God I hope not)

    If you are still here then thanks for reading - lets get to Old Trafford and have a different mental attitude, that at the end of the day separates winners from losers.
    Please dont blame the ref - we had no clear game plan m

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I feel your pain brother, this heat isn't helping either. I'm only glad I had the foresight to change my flight to tomorrow morning as I can't think of much worse than being in a busy airport right now with screaming kids/scousers.
    It could be with you. I was going to say you are a big kid but that’s an insult to a kid. T��sser.

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    Have to agree with almost all the OP.

    Couple of things crossed my mind.

    Are we too nice - particularly Roby as captain ?. Just imagine a Wigan side with Ratboy as captain having the Knowles try decision - there would be 6 players surrounding the ref demanding a screen decision.

    My other thought is squad rotation - the lack of rotation killed us last year come the playoffs. But now we went too far the other way going into a final with 1/3 of the team undercooked. Holbrook's only failing in 2 years is his inability to get this right

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    He kept the game flowing, they often don't blow for offside if the players are not involved in the play

    I don't be,ieve he made us go two metres further back than them

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    Is it a coincidence that towards the end, half the Warrington team suddenly developed cramp whenever they were tackled? And did some of them have an additional rest by feigning head injuries and going off for an assessment (which doesn't count as an interchange)?
    I bought a pack of luminous condoms last week. The wife's face lit up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_h View Post
    Is it a coincidence that towards the end, half the Warrington team suddenly developed cramp whenever they were tackled? And did some of them have an additional rest by feigning head injuries and going off for an assessment (which doesn't count as an interchange)?
    All part of the master plan. In the prematch build up JH did say that Price would do "anything to win" and so he did.

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    I suppose that's one of the differences between a winning team and one that plays very good rugby league. No one is going to feign injury to benefit from extra interchanges in a league game but Warrington appeared to do it at least twice on this occasion

    On a red hot day that sort of clever thinking is a just good management

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    We really seem to struggle to get over the line from 5 yards out. Back in the KC era, that's all we could do, barge over, but now, we just don't seem to be able to unlock defences if we're too close. And why, when we're chasing a game, do players think they can win it by themselves? Numerous times on Saturday (and in previous games too) we created an overlap out wide, only for Percy and Naiqama to cut back infield. Just when you need them to play as a team, they start to play as individuals. And as fantastic a player as Tommy is, I can't help feeling that he could conserve some energy by, instead of running 30 yards sideways and 5 yards forward, he could just run 5 yards forward, especially in 30 degree heat!
    I bought a pack of luminous condoms last week. The wife's face lit up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_h View Post
    We really seem to struggle to get over the line from 5 yards out. Back in the KC era, that's all we could do, barge over, but now, we just don't seem to be able to unlock defences if we're too close. And why, when we're chasing a game, do players think they can win it by themselves? Numerous times on Saturday (and in previous games too) we created an overlap out wide, only for Percy and Naiqama to cut back infield. Just when you need them to play as a team, they start to play as individuals. And as fantastic a player as Tommy is, I can't help feeling that he could conserve some energy by, instead of running 30 yards sideways and 5 yards forward, he could just run 5 yards forward, especially in 30 degree heat!
    Percey always does it, not a great wingers centre

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_h View Post
    We really seem to struggle to get over the line from 5 yards out. Back in the KC era, that's all we could do, barge over, but now, we just don't seem to be able to unlock defences if we're too close. And why, when we're chasing a game, do players think they can win it by themselves? Numerous times on Saturday (and in previous games too) we created an overlap out wide, only for Percy and Naiqama to cut back infield. Just when you need them to play as a team, they start to play as individuals. And as fantastic a player as Tommy is, I can't help feeling that he could conserve some energy by, instead of running 30 yards sideways and 5 yards forward, he could just run 5 yards forward, especially in 30 degree heat!
    I thought that, if some of those forwards had worked harder would Makinson not have had more energy to finish off chances? he was easily the most productive player from either side. Must have been shattered by the end

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    I thought that, if some of those forwards had worked harder would Makinson not have had more energy to finish off chances? he was easily the most productive player from either side. Must have been shattered by the end
    Forwards don't do the exit sets, that's for your outside backs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Forwards don't do the exit sets, that's for your outside backs
    Get that but our 1-7 shared 135 carries and theirs only did 101 - and that's with Currie at #6 who is used to work

    I don't think some of our forwards did enough of a workload, should have shared it around better to leave the backs a bit fresher at the end. if someone playing prop only does 2 carries is that an effective use of your resources? for me it's not

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    If a winger or a centre takes the ball in, odds on the next play has to go to the opposite side because straight away, you're a man short out wide
    I bought a pack of luminous condoms last week. The wife's face lit up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Get that but our 1-7 shared 135 carries and theirs only did 101 - and that's with Currie at #6 who is used to work

    I don't think some of our forwards did enough of a workload, should have shared it around better to leave the backs a bit fresher at the end. if someone playing prop only does 2 carries is that an effective use of your resources? for me it's not
    It is the modern game, when you do lots of defending as we did these stats are fairly common. It's more a sign of how well wire pinned us than the effort from the forwards imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Get that but our 1-7 shared 135 carries and theirs only did 101 - and that's with Currie at #6 who is used to work

    I don't think some of our forwards did enough of a workload, should have shared it around better to leave the backs a bit fresher at the end. if someone playing prop only does 2 carries is that an effective use of your resources? for me it's not
    I think those stats reflect the fact that due to our errors we spent more time coming out of our own 20 than they did.

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    [QUOTE=st. etrigan;771660]I have now calmed down and sobered up and I now need somewhere to put down my thoughts that may turn into a rant...who knows

    So where better than here.

    I haven't read any more comments and more than happy for you to ignore this, but I have to get it off my chest as I am fed up with the rubbish being spouted on Facebook, twitter and other social media blaming individuals.

    First things first, congratulations to Warrington, they beat us with a better attitude
    and a better game plan, they were prepared to do whatever it takes to beat us and so many times
    Saints were almost through and the 1% ers from Warrington meant that they just managed to hold on to the player. they deserve the win.

    The following should be seen as observations and not excuses I am accepting the defeat no matter how much it hurts and I never realised London was so far away till this last coach ride home. Even further than the last ride home that took a similar time after the 27 - 0 defeat

    The referee team made some bewildering calls.
    The Morgan Knowles try - what could Hicks have seen that made him so certain - when after replays it clearly shows that he got the ball down
    The Percival try - the call was that Tiai had no control of the ball yet he took 2 steps with the ball clearly held in his hand before Murdoch-Masilla ripped it from him.
    Even given that he did lose control the first knock on came from a Warrington player into Tiai's hands, I do despair that a professional referee cannot see this when he is just looking at a video screen. On the field it is much harder, but really come on Thaler - how can you get it so wrong.
    The Regan Grace knock on to wipe the tackle count down - it clearly comes of Kings shoulder first so that is the knock-on. Again its a live call but I am expecting refs to get this right.

    But for me the next part is crucial - it didn't come across on the TV and I don't know if it was noticeable sat on the ends, but where I was sat - 3rd tier just behind the royal seats, between the 40 and half way - it was very clear that:

    Firstly the ref changed the way he kept the teams back, for St Helens it was always 12m for Warrington it was somewhere between 10 and 12 m depending on where in the set he was, the first 2 or 3 play the balls were always 10m.

    But secondly the way that both teams treated where they went, Saints were pretty much always with the ref, forming a great line (not always but mostly) but Warrington were not bothered where the ref was they were up to 3 m offside no matter if the ref was at 10 or 12m.
    The ref should have penalised this to stop it happening, but him and his touch-judges just ignored it, which meant that Saints never had time and space to work in.
    But this brings me to the main point of this part
    Saints seem incapable of overcoming this type of scenario, each time over the last few years when faced with a defence that isn't kept back 10 there is nobody who takes control of the situation and starts to make them think with chips, kicks through - lets come up with a strategy to deal with this Saints. It happens far too often to ignore it.

    I have seen that Saints have lost 17 finals and semi finals in the last 12 years (we have also won 7 in that time) but why is this?
    The problem I can see is that in that time we have mainly gone with rookie type coaches, who are just learning their trade, this is really working at the week to week level where it is all about the process, squad rotation and making sure we win way more than we lose.
    But when it comes to finals they don't have the experience to see how they need to change how they work in the weeks coming up to it.

    This is clearly shown in Justin Holbrook's time here he is fantastic at getting the team working through the season, but is nave in his approach to finals, last year the enthusiasm of both Catalan and Warrington, combined with bad games by Saints meant we didn't reach a final.
    This year in the CC Semi we were very lucky to meet a team who were a whole division below us, even then their enthusiasm and willingness to play for each other made it hard for us.
    Yesterday we saw exactly the same scenario, he will learn what do, but he only has 4 games or 6 weeks now to get this right at Saints - can he do it?

    Resting players for the sake of it is great throughout the season, but RL is a game of tough men who need to be at their physical and mental peak in the big games, he should never have rested players in the weeks before the final, they should have been playing to maintain both their game fitness and the combinations with the other players. That is a tough lesson for us all to take, the fact we were 14 and 16 points clear meant we could rest and not worry about the result. But what it did mean is that (unless the player was genuinely hurt - in that case he shouldn't have played at Wembley) we had the opportunity to take risks such as making sure the 4 players were back up to speed in the preceding games by playing them for 40 or 29 mins and asking other players to play longer minutes.
    We do not need to rest anyone who can play - hopefully they will get 2 weeks rest before the Grand Final

    So how do we break this cycle, well it may be too late now, but we have the players, the structure, the ability, what we now need is a proven coach who can take us to that next level. The only other alternative is making sure that any new coach is tied up to 4 years (but that is a gamble in itself) so he can learn here and get us to change - even if it is the hard way by loosing another Final (God I hope not)

    If you are still here then thanks for reading - lets get to Old Trafford and have a different mental attitude, that at the end of the day separates winners from losers.[/QUOTE

    Happy to agree with most of this. Rather than say Hicks took us back 12 instead of their 10 . I would rather say his policing of the 10 metres was very poor the whole game. Certainly a skinny 10 at best. I think only one penalty for offside.
    There will be poor referring decisions that effected WARRINGTON as well as us however its fair to say it that his mistakes against changed to dynamics of the game. Morgan Knowles and Percival tries and Fage being taken off the ball.

    Most of the comments about resting players for the Leeds game and our ability to be more ruthless in finals is spot on.

    It seems that last year the formula worked well with Richardson and Fage on the bench. then Justin started tinkering with 4 forwards on the bench when we play Wigan (we lose a centre) and Wire in the semi play off and we lose.

    We need now to play our best team now for the remaining hopefully 5 games with a strong pool of reserves available to cover any injuries that we may suffer.

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