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Thread: Big time bottlers

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    All those leaders played at Murrayfield in 2002 and we still lost.
    Fingers crossed the current lot can go on to win the grand final then.
    The best thing that can happen to us in the play offs is we lose the first semi, and get to Old Trafford after winning the second semi. If we win the first grand final qualifier and go straight to Old Trafford with a 2 week break we will get beat against the battle hardened team that has played every week in the play offs be it Warrington, Wigan or Hull. Thats how its going to go down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    I really wish Bentley played. Im not knocking Roby. 65 tackles is immense. But with Roby playing so little lately and Bentley growing in confidence we could have done worse than starting with Roby and Walmsley on the bench.
    I’d have Bentley in the side before Peyroux.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Fingers crossed the current lot can go on to win the grand final then.
    The best thing that can happen to us in the play offs is we lose the first semi, and get to Old Trafford after winning the second semi. If we win the first grand final qualifier and go straight to Old Trafford with a 2 week break we will get beat against the battle hardened team that has played every week in the play offs be it Warrington, Wigan or Hull. Thats how its going to go down.
    I couldn't agree more with this.

    I actually think it's better to finish 2nd than 1st in the top 5.

    When it was a top 5 format previously, did anyone win it from 1st? My memory has gaps.

    1998: Wigan won it. League position?
    1999: Saints won it. League position: 2nd
    2000: Saints won it: League position: 2nd
    2001: Bradford won it: sure Wigan finished top?

    Then it went to top 6 from 2002 I'm sure.

    If Wigan finish 2nd, then I'm really worried.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Fingers crossed the current lot can go on to win the grand final then.
    The best thing that can happen to us in the play offs is we lose the first semi, and get to Old Trafford after winning the second semi. If we win the first grand final qualifier and go straight to Old Trafford with a 2 week break we will get beat against the battle hardened team that has played every week in the play offs be it Warrington, Wigan or Hull. Thats how its going to go down.
    Fishy wouldn't it be a week off then qualifier then week off again if we got there at first attempt? Sorry if that's what you meant. Week off either side it would be. Absolutely no good at all unless the training was very intense
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    I just do not buy the bottlers tag. I know a couple of the lads and to call them bottlers is a disgrace. Big games at this level are won by very fine margins and it is not down to not having bottle or not.Grow up people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I just do not buy the bottlers tag. I know a couple of the lads and to call them bottlers is a disgrace. Big games at this level are won by very fine margins and it is not down to not having bottle or not.Grow up people.
    I disagree, they can't handle pressure in those big games. Just look at the amount of errors in the Catalan and Warrington game last season and Warrington again this time around. They might be fully committed nice players but at the end of the day they can't handle these situations, on the positive side they have another chance to get that bottlers tag off their back. You don't see many teams winning a cup final with a low completion rate and high error count and the players themselves know that, so its time they respond to whats needed in a final.

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    What makes me laugh is we are “bottlers” yet are the second I think most successful club in the competition? Warrington have lost how many grand finals over recent years? Is “bottling” it in a final so much more respectable than doing the same in a semi final?

    What’s more is people talk like we are losing these games to absolutely dire teams. Last year we lost the semi of the cup to the eventual winners, we lost the play off to the team who finished second if I remember right? Maybe the mentality off the pitch in big games is as problematic as the mentality on it? We had only one player who’d ever been to Wembley before in our squad last Saturday. Most other occasions losing in such an occasion would be classed as a learning experience.

    Can you imagine had we won all the finals etc that we did lose? We’d have been that dominant I’m not sure it would have been good for the game.

    For me the whole argument is for one pretty ridiculous, but most importantly it’s utterly pointless.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Fishy wouldn't it be a week off then qualifier then week off again if we got there at first attempt? Sorry if that's what you meant. Week off either side it would be. Absolutely no good at all unless the training was very intense
    Finishing top i think we have a break in week one of the play offs. In week two we play at home and if we win go straight to Old Trafford two weeks later. We basically go into the final having only played one game across the four weeks leading up to the final. I don’t think that would be advantageous to us pal. I don’t think Holbrook would get us prepared well for that scenario.
    If we lose in week 2 of the play offs we play the following week to get to Old Trafford and i prefer that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I couldn't agree more with this.

    I actually think it's better to finish 2nd than 1st in the top 5.

    When it was a top 5 format previously, did anyone win it from 1st? My memory has gaps.

    1998: Wigan won it. League position?
    1999: Saints won it. League position: 2nd
    2000: Saints won it: League position: 2nd
    2001: Bradford won it: sure Wigan finished top?

    Then it went to top 6 from 2002 I'm sure.

    If Wigan finish 2nd, then I'm really worried.
    1998 Wigan finished top.
    2001 Bradford finished top and won the GF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Finishing top i think we have a break in week one of the play offs. In week two we play at home and if we win go straight to Old Trafford two weeks later. We basically go into the final having only played one game across the four weeks leading up to the final. I don’t think that would be advantageous to us pal. I don’t think Holbrook would get us prepared well for that scenario.
    If we lose in week 2 of the play offs we play the following week to get to Old Trafford and i prefer that.
    If we did lose in week 2 who knows how that would affect them the week after? Can you imagine losing 2 home games and crashing out! I’ll take the week 2 win and take my chances in the final.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parky151277 View Post
    1998 Wigan finished top.
    2001 Bradford finished top and won the GF.
    Ahh right.

    Not that bad then. My fears are misplaced. It's been a bad few days. I apologise. I don't half ramble sometomes
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Finishing top i think we have a break in week one of the play offs. In week two we play at home and if we win go straight to Old Trafford two weeks later. We basically go into the final having only played one game across the four weeks leading up to the final. I don’t think that would be advantageous to us pal. I don’t think Holbrook would get us prepared well for that scenario.
    If we lose in week 2 of the play offs we play the following week to get to Old Trafford and i prefer that.
    Agree. Think I'm the same
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  13. #113
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    Default Big time bottlers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    Kicking game was a shambles and we made our own mess on saturday. You simply have to kick well in big games and only Richardson can do that with any consistency and we have to take a risk to change games because going forward the way wire played is what everyone else will do now.
    I think we need to remain calm.

    Our kicking game wasn’t the best but the errors and soft goal line defence are what killed us. We were dominant in most aspects of the game and they were hanging on for dear life at times.

    Play that game ten times and we win eight or nine IMO. Unfortunately we came up with the one or two out of ten.

    I’m not panicking about the play-offs. In fact after that I’m more confident than ever that we’ll win the GF.

    Fages set up a try (unfortunately disallowed) with a kick, scored another try to bring us back into it, defends brilliantly and was one of our best. I wouldn’t dream of switching him out for Richardson in the big games to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I just do not buy the bottlers tag. I know a couple of the lads and to call them bottlers is a disgrace. Big games at this level are won by very fine margins and it is not down to not having bottle or not.Grow up people.
    It depends how you define "bottlers". For me it comes down to one thing, trying a bit too hard and getting in the way of your own performance. The number of errors we made does indicate that we let the occasion get to us a little bit, which is perfectly natural considering how many of them had played in a final at Wembley before

    We still ran hard, gave 100% throughout but we got tight a bit also and made basic errors which cost us

    "Bottlers" is just a very harsh way of describing what happened

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I just do not buy the bottlers tag. I know a couple of the lads and to call them bottlers is a disgrace. Big games at this level are won by very fine margins and it is not down to not having bottle or not.Grow up people.
    Would anybody dare say it to Matty Lees’ face lay in hospital?

    Ok, scratch that as he didn’t play in the final.


    What about Roby? Battered and bruised after giving his all. Coote? Certainly made a couple of mistakes but had enough”bottle” to actually take the field.....

    Grace? Massive pressure and an error.

    Walmsley? Just back from injury.

    I’ve no issue with criticism for the team not performing at this level but it needs to be more reasonable and measured than just throwing insults.

    They’re not bottlers. That sounds like players who run away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    All those leaders played at Murrayfield in 2002 and we still lost.
    That's a daft post. He never said they won every big game, he said they were geared up to win them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Would anybody dare say it to Matty Lees’ face lay in hospital?

    Ok, scratch that as he didn’t play in the final.


    What about Roby? Battered and bruised after giving his all. Coote? Certainly made a couple of mistakes but had enough”bottle” to actually take the field.....

    Grace? Massive pressure and an error.

    Walmsley? Just back from injury.

    I’ve no issue with criticism for the team not performing at this level but it needs to be more reasonable and measured than just throwing insults.

    They’re not bottlers. That sounds like players who run away.
    Silly statement. There's a big difference between physical and mental strength. I'd be surprised if anyone really doubted the physical integrity of the Saints team; anyone who crosses the white lines to enter a rugby field needs a strong degree of courage and bravery.
    Evidence does exist that points to failure to perform in getting over the line in these big games and its ability to cope under pressure; the way the team approached that second half on Saturday a prime example. It would be nonsense to pretend that this is 'bad luck' or 'the way its gone.'
    Historically there's been examples where sportsmen in other sides have had similar problems and admitted there frailties in this regard; I'd be surprised if no one said the same. In fact Mark Percival has gone some way to acknowledging it:
    "People have got the right to say it because there's a couple of big games there. I've won one Grand Final in seven seasons and that's not enough."
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 28th August 2019 at 09:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Silly statement. There's a big difference between physical and mental strength. I'd be surprised if anyone really doubted the physical integrity of the Saints team; anyone who crosses the white lines to enter a rugby field needs a strong degree of courage and bravery.
    Evidence does exist that points to failure to perform in getting over the line in these big games and its ability to cope under pressure; the way the team approached that second half on Saturday a prime example. It would be nonsense to pretend that this is 'bad luck' or 'the way its gone.'
    Historically there's been examples where sportsmen in other sides that have had similar problems admitted there frailties in this regard; I'd be surprised if no one said the same. In fact Mark Percival has gone some way to acknowledging it:
    "People have got the right to say it because there's a couple of big games there. I've won one Grand Final in seven seasons and that's not enough."
    You're right. Again.

    It's about an ability to keep a clear head, not panic & play good basic rugby despite being physically at your limit.

    It's no mean feat but we have constantly failed to do it for a long time.

    We need more grunt out of our back row. I think it was you who stated this earlier. We need to change the way we play in these matches. Use the entire pack & bench to mix it & win the battle in the middle. Less of running on the edges, more of taking the ball in early in the tackle count. Quick sharp ball into a forward steaming onto a ball. Repeat. Kick well, chase. Repeat. Win the war of attrition. Make the correct decisions in the opposition's 20.
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    I think the standard this season has been weak at so many clubs! can't believe Summer Rugby starts again in January 2020! Saturday has passed! it's pointless going over what has happened!

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    Those last two posts (flat cap and Ralph) get it. I remember on here some people saying that McGuire and Sinfield were poor players but they didn't respect just how well they managed themselves and their team on the pitch. I watch us sometimes in nothing games making a series of unforced errors in a comfortable win and think "If that was me out there I would be giving them both barrels for garbage like that"

    The Leeds game at home for example where we cruised the whole game, messing up constantly because it didn't matter. I left the game furious thinking if we play like that in a proper game we'll end up losing it

    They need someone in that team to lead them, raise standards across the park so when they do find themselves in a dog fight they are prepared. Warrington made 5 errors in that game Saturday, that's an incredible level of concentration and focus. Sure they didn't play any expansive rugby but quite a few of our errors were from basic rugby too

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    It depends how you define "bottlers". For me it comes down to one thing, trying a bit too hard and getting in the way of your own performance. The number of errors we made does indicate that we let the occasion get to us a little bit, which is perfectly natural considering how many of them had played in a final at Wembley before

    We still ran hard, gave 100% throughout but we got tight a bit also and made basic errors which cost us

    "Bottlers" is just a very harsh way of describing what happened
    "Bottler" is more to do with the mental side of things rather than the physicality, we probably played the most physical in any game so far this season but a fair bit of that was self inflicted with the amount of poor composure, completion and errors.

    An example of that could be Ratchford and Coote, I seem to remember Ratchford being out for over 6 weeks and wasn't match fit on his return but his mental strength helped him to cope from game 1 all the way to the final, Coote was out for 6 weeks returned wasn't match fit and his mental strength was weak and looked like a full back who hadn't played in that position before.

    Another issue was leadership I didn't see any saints player who stepped up to the plate, its all well and good for Roby to make 62 tackles but he needed to get his players to overcome the mental pressure, I didn't see any of this and for me that is the task of Holbrook to galvanise into the side for the remaining season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Silly statement. There's a big difference between physical and mental strength. I'd be surprised if anyone really doubted the physical integrity of the Saints team; anyone who crosses the white lines to enter a rugby field needs a strong degree of courage and bravery.
    Evidence does exist that points to failure to perform in getting over the line in these big games and its ability to cope under pressure; the way the team approached that second half on Saturday a prime example. It would be nonsense to pretend that this is 'bad luck' or 'the way its gone.'
    Historically there's been examples where sportsmen in other sides have had similar problems and admitted there frailties in this regard; I'd be surprised if no one said the same. In fact Mark Percival has gone some way to acknowledging it:
    "People have got the right to say it because there's a couple of big games there. I've won one Grand Final in seven seasons and that's not enough."

    I’m talking about the faceless criticism on here and elsewhere to call someone a bottler.

    If you were critical of Alex for dropping the ball, losing composure in the heat, chasing the game.... THATS criticism and I’m here that he and all of the players would be willing to hold their hands up and say they didn’t reach the standards required but they’re not bottlers.


    We need to move forward now and make the best of the opportunity we still have ahead.

    Keeping on about bottlers is heaping more and more negative pressure on.
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    As per Collins, the meaning 'Bottle It' is 'If you say that someone has bottled it, you mean that they have lost their courage at the last moment and have not done something they intended to do'.

    I don't believe they lost their courage. Any rugby player that takes to field has a lot of that. Not done something they intended to do, I'd agree with that. I don't mean winning which was obviously their target but more the game plan, errors etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Willy View Post
    As per Collins, the meaning 'Bottle It' is 'If you say that someone has bottled it, you mean that they have lost their courage at the last moment and have not done something they intended to do'.

    I don't believe they lost their courage. Any rugby player that takes to field has a lot of that. Not done something they intended to do, I'd agree with that. I don't mean winning which was obviously their target but more the game plan, errors etc.
    ^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    All those leaders played at Murrayfield in 2002 and we still lost.
    They lost one single big game out of how many?

    Currently, we haven't won one single big game out of about the same.

    Therein lies the massive difference.
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