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Thread: Big time bottlers

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    Learning All The Songs RJM25R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parky151277 View Post
    To be fair every club as an element of whoppers supporting them. It is what it is. The last 2 seasons I’ve started to take my lad and we’ve got season tickets in the north stand. I’ve enjoyed most games and it’s a damn site better than the dross we’ve been served up under previous coaches. I look forward to a Friday night where in the past it’s been a chore knowing that your about to be bored to death.

    Despite the result yesterday and the disappointment both me and my son went through, we’ll be there on Friday watching us lift the hub cap. If we do make the GF we’ll be there again hoping that we may see us lift that major trophy. It’s what being a fan is all about I suppose!

    100%


    In hindsight it would be nice to let this particular thread die a death because I don’t think it’s good for anyone.
    Last edited by RJM25R; 25th August 2019 at 17:22.
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    let get this thread of the site....
    if saints go in at half time 12 up not down.... who would have won?
    If saints where so poor why did Wire play the I need a Medic stop theme card( hicks played his part by allowing this when law says if u can play the ball ur team mate does and game does not stop) 40 mins 2nd half was over 60 mins due to CRAMP ,,,, even play who was tackled developed this... I call it CHEATING,,,, Warrington coach says gammon ship and playing the ref...
    As for bottling the game there was a great effort by every player in conditions that did not suit chasing a game

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    Quote Originally Posted by poshscouser View Post
    let get this thread of the site....
    if saints go in at half time 12 up not down.... who would have won?
    If saints where so poor why did Wire play the I need a Medic stop theme card( hicks played his part by allowing this when law says if u can play the ball ur team mate does and game does not stop) 40 mins 2nd half was over 60 mins due to CRAMP ,,,, even play who was tackled developed this... I call it CHEATING,,,, Warrington coach says gammon ship and playing the ref...
    As for bottling the game there was a great effort by every player in conditions that did not suit chasing a game
    I listened to Tim Paine’s Ashes interview after the Ben Stokes masterclass. He was asked if he bemoaned that shocking (non) LBW decision by Joel Wilson. His response was it was irrelevant and something his team couldn’t control. There is a lesson there. Saints had ample chance to regroup and control what they can control. Saints blew it and now where big games are concerned don't so much have a monkey on our back but King Kong.

    I feel for the fans. A hell of a lot of emotional capital has gone into supporting the side and in the main when it gets to the big games the club ••••es down its leg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    And so have I for 30 years. I don't go much anymore because 1. I work away. 2. Most of my mates don't go anymore. 3. It's boring. 4. Our fans embarrass me...
    They probably do go. They just don't tell you.



    Regarding the OP. I don't buy this bottlers thing. Much has been said already about the various factors that came together on Saturday, and personally, I think the match fitness issue was our main downfall, plus Wire just did the basics right.

    Bottlers? I guess we get another couple of bites of the cherry before too long, so let's see?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    They probably do go. They just don't tell you.



    Regarding the OP. I don't buy this bottlers thing. Much has been said already about the various factors that came together on Saturday, and personally, I think the match fitness issue was our main downfall, plus Wire just did the basics right.

    Bottlers? I guess we get another couple of bites of the cherry before too long, so let's see?
    I really hope youÂ’re right.

    I wouldn’t use the word “bottlers” but I really think we have players who suffer from anxiety in big games. I also think that what happened yesterday won’t have helped them psychologically.

    I think that some players I really admire go into panic mode when they are losing in big games. They start trying too hard and there donÂ’t appear to be enough strong voices to tell them to go back to basics and calm down. IÂ’m not sure that can be sorted out this season or that easily. ItÂ’s clear that mental toughness and discipline is an essential part of all sports and I worry that important members of the team now lack self belief.

    As IÂ’ve said, I hope your right. ThereÂ’s nothing more than IÂ’d love to look back on these threads and laugh after a GF victory. However, I am worried.

    PS Is your reference to “bites of the cherry” some reference to our playing Wigan?
    Last edited by Suttoner; 25th August 2019 at 17:28. Reason: PS yet again sorry for the funny symbols. Not me gov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    ...PS Is your reference to “bites of the cherry” some reference to our playing Wigan?
    . No, it wasn't deliberate, but I see where you're coming from.
    We just have to get on and play whatever hand we're dealt with (it could be Wires twice yet!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    . No, it wasn't deliberate, but I see where you're coming from.
    We just have to get on and play whatever hand we're dealt with (it could be Wires twice yet!)
    I think yesterday was Wires season. They put everything into that and I can see the rest of their season falling on its arse. Wigan and Hull will be our main threats for the GF in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parky151277 View Post
    I think yesterday was Wires season. They put everything into that and I can see the rest of their season falling on its arse. Wigan and Hull will be our main threats for the GF in my opinion.
    Our biggest threat is ourselves. We can go from looking the business in April to looking like we’ve never played a game together as a team when it comes to the big games.

    We’re just not smart as a club. Wigan haven’t won the LLS since 2012 but have three Grand Final wins and Leeds have won the LLS three times and won 8 Grand Finals. For many of those years, Wigan and Leeds haven’t been the best team in Super League for many of those years, we were the best team last year, Cas were the best team in 2017 etc, however both Wigan and Leeds were excellent at peaking at the right time, something we don’t/can’t do.
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    Leeds might have done this and that and Warrington won a couple of cups.
    They have also featured in the middle 8's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The frenchman View Post
    Is it the best team though, players from other teams could be coasting the league because they know it's just a warm up for the real games. Nothing is really on the line in the league except 2 points. We all know the rules at the beginning of the season it's all about winning those games. Warrington have proved they are better than us again.

    They are top of the table, “the league doesn’t lie” as they say. If that’s because other players are that unprofessional they’d turn up and give less effort with their fans paying is beyond Saints control.

    I get the rational for play off rugby and it is good fun, but I’ve always been a believer the best side finishes top. I don’t care who it is (and I ••••ing hate Warrington) but if you finish top then fair play you’re the best side.

    Truth be told for a number of years now I’ve never really given that much value to the challenge cup. Yes I’d have rather won yesterday than lost it but i just think our competition lacks the quality on depth that makes the cup valuable. No disrespect but we played a team battling to stay in the top flight in the quarters and a team a division below and that should never be on the same pitch as us in the semis. It’s hardly what you’d bother putting on a DVD. Warrington was really the only game we could/should have lost and Sod’s law would have it that we did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Leeds might have done this and that and Warrington won a couple of cups.
    They have also featured in the middle 8's.
    Genuine question would you swap that result yesterday for say us doing a year in the middle 8's in JH's first year. Or would you prefer us to get knocked out in the semi like we did and only win the LLS this year

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.O.88 View Post
    They are top of the table, “the league doesn’t lie” as they say. If that’s because other players are that unprofessional they’d turn up and give less effort with their fans paying is beyond Saints control.

    I get the rational for play off rugby and it is good fun, but I’ve always been a believer the best side finishes top. I don’t care who it is (and I ••••ing hate Warrington) but if you finish top then fair play you’re the best side.

    Truth be told for a number of years now I’ve never really given that much value to the challenge cup. Yes I’d have rather won yesterday than lost it but i just think our competition lacks the quality on depth that makes the cup valuable. No disrespect but we played a team battling to stay in the top flight in the quarters and a team a division below and that should never be on the same pitch as us in the semis. It’s hardly what you’d bother putting on a DVD. Warrington was really the only game we could/should have lost and Sod’s law would have it that we did.
    How do you explain that extra 10% they seemed to have in defence yesterday. Or was that just us completely bottling it? Looking at yesterdays result who looks the more professional now? We know the format at the start, it's up to the coaches and players to figure out how best to do that.

    I don't really understand your thoughts on the cup. You don't like it because of our opposition, you mean the people we play every week in the other competition plus some extra teams?


    Just seems to me there's a lot of excuses and comments like I don't value the cup after we've been beat. Last week it was the magic of the cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The frenchman View Post
    Genuine question would you swap that result yesterday for say us doing a year in the middle 8's in JH's first year. Or would you prefer us to get knocked out in the semi like we did and only win the LLS this year
    No I wouldn't want to be mediocre thanks.
    I actually believe top of the league should be Champions too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    No I wouldn't want to be mediocre thanks.
    I actually believe top of the league should be Champions too.
    Quite a good description of yesterday's performance


    Mediocre

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Leeds might have done this and that and Warrington won a couple of cups.
    They have also featured in the middle 8's.
    Six Challenge Cup’s and Six Super League’s won by them two but yeah, I’d rather be Saints.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The frenchman View Post
    Quite a good description of yesterday's performance


    Mediocre
    .. And the rest of 2019?
    It's the structure that sucks.
    Every minute matters? Worst strapline ever.
    Why don't they just change it to Late September/ Early October Matters and save us all turning up week in week out from February onwards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    Six Challenge Cup’s and Six Super League’s won by them two but yeah, I’d rather be Saints.
    Just remind me which cinema you watched the last Wire championship in. Was the pianist any good?

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    I’m sorry but this is one sport where the league does lie. Huddersfield won the LLS, they weren’t the best team. Cas won the LLS, they were not the best team

    We’ve won it this year but you’d back both Warrington and Wigan in a one off game versus Saints every time. The league is nothing more than training, you use it to prepare. Until the structure changes that will always be the case

    Leeds every year taught us that lesson but it seems that some Saints fans have short memories. The effort was definitely there yesterday as we dominated early on, we just don’t have what it takes when it’s gets hard - Warrington and Wigan do

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    Castleford were the best team the year they finished top.
    It's a crackers argument for me.
    A team can be undefeated from the season kick off but lose one game in October yet not be Champions? Nonsense for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poshscouser View Post
    let get this thread of the site....
    if saints go in at half time 12 up not down.... who would have won?
    If saints where so poor why did Wire play the I need a Medic stop theme card( hicks played his part by allowing this when law says if u can play the ball ur team mate does and game does not stop) 40 mins 2nd half was over 60 mins due to CRAMP ,,,, even play who was tackled developed this... I call it CHEATING,,,, Warrington coach says gammon ship and playing the ref...
    As for bottling the game there was a great effort by every player in conditions that did not suit chasing a game
    Clarke was down with cramp one minute the next he chased and forced Grace to drop the ball some magic dust their trainer has.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Castleford were the best team the year they finished top.
    It's a crackers argument for me.
    A team can be undefeated from the season kick off but lose one game in October yet not be Champions? Nonsense for me.
    Spot on. Absolute rubbish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Castleford were the best team the year they finished top.
    It's a crackers argument for me.
    A team can be undefeated from the season kick off but lose one game in October yet not be Champions? Nonsense for me.
    You're spot on Div. But the problem is, we aren't playing to the most consistent team winning.

    What we are unable to do as a club, is raise our game again or come up with a game plan in a one off crunch game. We can't do it. The last time we did do it was the 2014 Grand Final. Wellens has spoken about this & how eventually, Wigan cracked because we had an extra forward after Flower went berserk & flattened Hohaia.

    Anyway... We play the game at a hundred mph, trying to run the legs off teams. As 4 players weren't even fit, then we couldn't do it. Our approach to the real big games is flawed, whether we are the best team over a season or not. Like it or lump it but it's plain as day. For me, we need to change it.

    1. Stop using our backs to run the ball up so much. Don't know why we keep doing it. One or two tackles, maybe. That's it. That's what the forwards are for. How often do our back rowers take the ball in? I've watched the game since. Our pack weren't even in the game. There were too many anonymous performances.

    2. Win the forward battle. Play within the scrum lines. Keep it tight. Kick well. Complete sets. Be patient. Tez mentioned this in his post earlier.

    3. Start Richardson at 7. Stick Fages on the bench to give Roby a rest. Fages & Lomax won't do the job in a final. Need someone who will actually try to put some kicks in on the last tackle.

    4. Bring Bentley in. He'll get stuck in & graft.

    5. Start with Walmsley on the bench to give us a boost up front after 15-20.

    6. We end up with a week off between the end of regular rounds and the qualifiers. We've got to find a way to keep sharp in training, particularly if we win the qualifier as that's another week off. If it's a full pelt game behind closed doors, then do it.

    7. If you're not fit, you don't play. Simple as that.

    We have got to win the arm wrestle to win these big games. Percentages & discipline will win you these games. Panic rugby like we play will not. Teams know that if you complete your sets against us & keep the field narrow, we can be beaten. The ONLY way to counteract this is to bash them and bash them and bash them. Then you run straight, hard & get the most out of your forwards.
    Last edited by Ralph Fridge; 26th August 2019 at 06:13. Reason: SPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by The frenchman View Post
    How do you explain that extra 10% they seemed to have in defence yesterday. Or was that just us completely bottling it? Looking at yesterdays result who looks the more professional now? We know the format at the start, it's up to the coaches and players to figure out how best to do that.

    I don't really understand your thoughts on the cup. You don't like it because of our opposition, you mean the people we play every week in the other competition plus some extra teams?


    Just seems to me there's a lot of excuses and comments like I don't value the cup after we've been beat. Last week it was the magic of the cup.
    We've won the super league from 2nd spot in 1999 & 2000. A while ago now but I didn't hear many complaints then. Particularly in 1999 when we ambushed Bradford in the final. They were the best team by a distance that season in the league
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    We've won the super league from 2nd spot in 1999 & 2000. A while ago now but I didn't hear many complaints then. Particularly in 1999 when we ambushed Bradford in the final. They were the best team by a distance that season in the league
    Interesting that you mention Bradford because it feels like this Saints team is a bit like that Bulls team of the late 90s and early 2000s. We seem to steamroll the league with one tactic but come the big games when other teams step up the pace and put the pressure on we just don't seem to know how to adapt.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, whether it's a mental thing or whether it just relies on a few cool heads and leaders to steer us through the game.

    Either way I'm less confident now for the Play Offs and getting to and winning the GF than I was. Maybe the two bites at the cherry will do us good in the Play Offs this time round.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Castleford were the best team the year they finished top.
    It's a crackers argument for me.
    A team can be undefeated from the season kick off but lose one game in October yet not be Champions? Nonsense for me.
    Yep. Or get 2 key injuries before the end of season cup, sorry, play off games. I wonder where that happened before???

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