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Thread: Big time bottlers

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I’m talking about the faceless criticism on here and elsewhere to call someone a bottler.

    If you were critical of Alex for dropping the ball, losing composure in the heat, chasing the game.... THATS criticism and I’m here that he and all of the players would be willing to hold their hands up and say they didn’t reach the standards required but they’re not bottlers.


    We need to move forward now and make the best of the opportunity we still have ahead.

    Keeping on about bottlers is heaping more and more negative pressure on.
    Whether we say it or not, everybody else is saying it. That's the perception.

    The negative pressure is on. Massive pressure is on.

    The team can prove whether or not they are bottlers by winning the Grand Final.

    Whichever way you look at it though, keep winning all the games but then flunking it when it matters against lesser opposition, in a repeated fashion, then that is the tag you are going to be saddled with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Whether we say it or not, everybody else is saying it. That's the perception.

    The negative pressure is on. Massive pressure is on.

    The team can prove whether or not they are bottlers by winning the Grand Final.

    Whichever way you look at it though, keep winning all the games but then flunking it when it matters against lesser opposition, in a repeated fashion, then that is the tag you are going to be saddled with.

    I expect all the oppo’s to Say it, Josh Charnley to sing it, SKY to reference it and Twitter to be full of it (as it always is) but I think Saints fans should draw a line.
    Posted by paulscnthorpe
    Thompson made more metres than Isa, clubb, Byrne, partington, o loughlin, Powell and flower combined

    Posted by SaintJon
    And he only played 50 minutes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I expect all the oppo’s to Say it, Josh Charnley to sing it, SKY to reference it and Twitter to be full of it (as it always is) but I think Saints fans should draw a line.
    Spot on mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I’m talking about the faceless criticism on here and elsewhere to call someone a bottler.

    If you were critical of Alex for dropping the ball, losing composure in the heat, chasing the game.... THATS criticism and I’m here that he and all of the players would be willing to hold their hands up and say they didn’t reach the standards required but they’re not bottlers.


    We need to move forward now and make the best of the opportunity we still have ahead.

    Keeping on about bottlers is heaping more and more negative pressure on.
    Whether they like it or not, until they win a final, they are going to be called bottlers. They should use it as motivation to prove people wrong and shut them up instead of feeling sorry for themselves and hopefully that is the attitude they’ve taken. It’s probably better that they’re seen as bottlers now as a lot of people will back whoever we’re playing in the Grand Final, taking some of the pressure off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian Saint View Post
    I've just realised and hopefully someone here can correct me if I'm wrong but say we lose our first play off game BUT win at home at our second attempt, doesn't that only give us one week to sell our ticket allocation for old trafford?
    So? They’ll probably just do what if forms and why would it be a problem anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.O.88 View Post
    What makes me laugh is we are “bottlers” yet are the second I think most successful club in the competition? Warrington have lost how many grand finals over recent years? Is “bottling” it in a final so much more respectable than doing the same in a semi final?

    What’s more is people talk like we are losing these games to absolutely dire teams. Last year we lost the semi of the cup to the eventual winners, we lost the play off to the team who finished second if I remember right? Maybe the mentality off the pitch in big games is as problematic as the mentality on it? We had only one player who’d ever been to Wembley before in our squad last Saturday. Most other occasions losing in such an occasion would be classed as a learning experience.

    Can you imagine had we won all the finals etc that we did lose? We’d have been that dominant I’m not sure it would have been good for the game.

    For me the whole argument is for one pretty ridiculous, but most importantly it’s utterly pointless.
    We’ve won 1 final in 10 seasons, that would become 1 in 11 if we don’t win at Old Trafford. And we are losing these big games to very ordinary sides. That Catalans team was nothing special at all, regardless of them winning the cup and that Warrington side last year finished 4th and was dire in majority of the games.

  7. #132
    In The South Stand Tez the Saint's Avatar
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    I think a big problem for us is the lack of pressure and competitiveness in the regular rounds. It’s one thing playing well and doing things against Wakefield, Catalan or Huddersfield at home but being able to replicate them in semi-finals and finals is another thing. As a squad, this lot haven’t won and don’t know how to win trophies so ideally we’d play games of a certain intensity to bridge the game between the weekly rounds and the knock out games so the players can learn and get accustomed to it. Even Warrington played against Wigan and Hull FC in the Challenge Cup. We haven’t played a team who need to beat us in 12 months.

    Wigan don’t need it because they’ve been there and done it. Warrington have lost a few finals but they’ve won some big semi-finals and have that experience as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintH517 View Post
    Whether they like it or not, until they win a final, they are going to be called bottlers. They should use it as motivation to prove people wrong and shut them up instead of feeling sorry for themselves and hopefully that is the attitude they’ve taken. It’s probably better that they’re seen as bottlers now as a lot of people will back whoever we’re playing in the Grand Final, taking some of the pressure off.
    As I said

    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I expect all the oppo’s to Say it, Josh Charnley to sing it, SKY to reference it and Twitter to be full of it (as it always is) but I think Saints fans should draw a line.
    Posted by paulscnthorpe
    Thompson made more metres than Isa, clubb, Byrne, partington, o loughlin, Powell and flower combined

    Posted by SaintJon
    And he only played 50 minutes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I think a big problem for us is the lack of pressure and competitiveness in the regular rounds. It’s one thing playing well and doing things against Wakefield, Catalan or Huddersfield at home but being able to replicate them in semi-finals and finals is another thing. As a squad, this lot haven’t won and don’t know how to win trophies so ideally we’d play games of a certain intensity to bridge the game between the weekly rounds and the knock out games so the players can learn and get accustomed to it. Even Warrington played against Wigan and Hull FC in the Challenge Cup. We haven’t played a team who need to beat us in 12 months.

    Wigan don’t need it because they’ve been there and done it. Warrington have lost a few finals but they’ve won some big semi-finals and have that experience as well.
    Very true. Since Daniel Anderson left Saints have only contested 5 finals and 3 of those were in the three years after he left with a very battle hardened team. Wire have contested 11 in that time, Leeds 10, Wigan 8

    You can't underestimate that experience. We're on the right track, contesting finals again will make us better. If we somehow find a way to win one I think we might win a few over the next 5 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I think a big problem for us is the lack of pressure and competitiveness in the regular rounds. It’s one thing playing well and doing things against Wakefield, Catalan or Huddersfield at home but being able to replicate them in semi-finals and finals is another thing. As a squad, this lot haven’t won and don’t know how to win trophies so ideally we’d play games of a certain intensity to bridge the game between the weekly rounds and the knock out games so the players can learn and get accustomed to it. Even Warrington played against Wigan and Hull FC in the Challenge Cup. We haven’t played a team who need to beat us in 12 months.

    Wigan don’t need it because they’ve been there and done it. Warrington have lost a few finals but they’ve won some big semi-finals and have that experience as well.
    You make some decent points Tez, but don't belittle what we have achieved. It's not just "Wakefield, Catalan or Huddersfield at home" that we've beaten, we've beaten everybody (except London and Cats away!). Just think about that, EVERYONE. Leeds, Cas, Wigan Warrington, Hull...………………………..I know what you're saying but if anyone had said at the start of the campaign what we'd achieve thus far, how many folk, hands on hearts would say we'd achieve what we have? Some folk on this site are citing a losing streak in big games going back eleven years! Really? C'mon, different coaches, different players, different rules. Some go on about conspiracy theorists on here, yet the biggest and most ridiculous theory is that we're bottlers, when apart from maybe Robes the only constant is that we under achieved in big games. Nothing to do with management or squads as over eleven years it's all changed!

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    You make some decent points Tez, but don't belittle what we have achieved. It's not just "Wakefield, Catalan or Huddersfield at home" that we've beaten, we've beaten everybody (except London and Cats away!). Just think about that, EVERYONE. Leeds, Cas, Wigan Warrington, Hull...………………………..I know what you're saying but if anyone had said at the start of the campaign what we'd achieve thus far, how many folk, hands on hearts would say we'd achieve what we have? Some folk on this site are citing a losing streak in big games going back eleven years! Really? C'mon, different coaches, different players, different rules. Some go on about conspiracy theorists on here, yet the biggest and most ridiculous theory is that we're bottlers, when apart from maybe Robes the only constant is that we under achieved in big games. Nothing to do with management or squads as over eleven years it's all changed!
    Fair point Prez you’re right. To be honest I’d just seen a post on another thread where someone was talking about changing the personnel and that comment was more directed at that than the team itself.

    Yeah I agree with you, I’ve actually enjoyed this season more than last year. I’m still more confident going into the play-off’s than I was last season. I don’t think that final would have been as close this time last year. I don’t think we’d have created as many chances as we did.

    I don’t agree with the Bottlers tag at all. You can’t play 80 minutes of rugby if you’re a bottler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mancunian Saint View Post
    I've just realised and hopefully someone here can correct me if I'm wrong but say we lose our first play off game BUT win at home at our second attempt, doesn't that only give us one week to sell our ticket allocation for old trafford?
    Get them off the RFL if you are prepared to risk it.

    If we win first time of asking, we will be in the Stretford End (west) most likely. If we win second time of asking, we will be in the East.

    If we lose both, then you'll be a bit snookered.

    I certainly won't be looking at tickets until we actually get there and it's a big 'if' for me
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    There’s a saying, that there’s lies, damn lies and statistics.

    We’ve won 50% of any finals since 2012, because we’ve only been in two.

    We’ve won 50% of the Grand Finals we’ve ever Played in

    But we’ve won 80% of Challenge Cup finals we’ve been in since 2003......

    Since 03 we’ve been in 7 GF with a 28% win percentile.


    And yet we are STILL the second most successful team in the summer era.

    If you count LLS we’re number one.
    Posted by paulscnthorpe
    Thompson made more metres than Isa, clubb, Byrne, partington, o loughlin, Powell and flower combined

    Posted by SaintJon
    And he only played 50 minutes...

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    I thinks that's nice but on the other hand for the last decade we've been behind Leeds, Wigan and Warrington. Hopefully things are about to change now but 10 years of our rivals looking down on us hasn't been enjoyable IMO

    Possibly behind Hull FC also as they've won 2 big trophies and we've only won one

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    I thinks that's nice but on the other hand for the last decade we've been behind Leeds, Wigan and Warrington. Hopefully things are about to change now but 10 years of our rivals looking down on us hasn't been enjoyable IMO

    Possibly behind Hull FC also as they've won 2 big trophies and we've only won one
    That’s my point, if you stretch it out however you choose you can make us look better or worse.

    Maybe we should be a little prouder at what we HAVE achieved rather than what we lost?
    Posted by paulscnthorpe
    Thompson made more metres than Isa, clubb, Byrne, partington, o loughlin, Powell and flower combined

    Posted by SaintJon
    And he only played 50 minutes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    Fair point Prez you’re right. To be honest I’d just seen a post on another thread where someone was talking about changing the personnel and that comment was more directed at that than the team itself.

    Yeah I agree with you, I’ve actually enjoyed this season more than last year. I’m still more confident going into the play-off’s than I was last season. I don’t think that final would have been as close this time last year. I don’t think we’d have created as many chances as we did.

    I don’t agree with the Bottlers tag at all. You can’t play 80 minutes of rugby if you’re a bottler.
    Spot on Tez.

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    I do think that when this team wins a major trophy (which I think it will), it could be the start of a new dynasty at Saints, similar to the recent Leeds one and Saints prior to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    Fair point Prez you’re right. To be honest I’d just seen a post on another thread where someone was talking about changing the personnel and that comment was more directed at that than the team itself.

    Yeah I agree with you, I’ve actually enjoyed this season more than last year. I’m still more confident going into the play-off’s than I was last season. I don’t think that final would have been as close this time last year. I don’t think we’d have created as many chances as we did.

    I don’t agree with the Bottlers tag at all. You can’t play 80 minutes of rugby if you’re a bottler.



    There's a big difference between lacking big game experience and a vocal leader, and bottling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    They lost one single big game out of how many?

    Currently, we haven't won one single big game out of about the same.

    Therein lies the massive difference.
    But we also lost five grand finals back then. Admittedly only three of the mentioned leaders played in those matches and the others were replaced by the likes of Graham, Price and Roby. However i get your point in that probably more than anything we lack someone like Joynt who would get them together and give a good rollocking. Similar Farrell at Wigan and Peacock at Leeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    But we also lost five grand finals back then. Admittedly only three of the mentioned leaders played in those matches and the others were replaced by the likes of Graham, Price and Roby. However i get your point in that probably more than anything we lack someone like Joynt who would get them together and give a good rollocking. Similar Farrell at Wigan and Peacock at Leeds.
    Agreed. It’s been said many a time but we do lack a strong personality - a voice, a go to man. Someone like Scully who when we were trapped on our line would step in and say give me the f-ing ball rather than watch backs taking it in

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I think mainly the latter mate, IMO we make too many mistakes under pressure. Within the first 25 mins v Catalan, off memory, we’d thrown the ball into touch twice, dropped it twice and had given at least one penalty away so that’s five mistakes in the first quarter or so of the game. On Saturday we made 18 errors and over 100 tackles more than the opposition. Both days were hot as well against a bigger team. So straight away you don’t give yourself to do anything tactically because for any tactic to work you need the ball. We do play some really good rugby but for that to work, ideally the defence is fatigued and for me that comes by keeping hold of the ball.

    Why that happens I suppose is harder to say. Fishy makes a decent point IMO about the mentality, I think a big problem is the players not being able to understand what the game needs. Part of that could be the lack of pressure and ‘intensity’ in the SL games, there isn’t enough riding on them and there isn’t enough quality for teams to replicate what Wire and Cats did in those two games. I think the players are surprised when things don’t go their own way and panic and lose concentration because they aren’t used to it. A lot of the time errors happen when players aren’t fully concentrating. I think that’s a factor.

    Leadership is maybe something that needs looking at as well. For me that’s something the next coach could do with addressing. Think ideally you’d have players saying “we need to do xyz” for the next 10-20 minutes. I think you can go into games with a plan but you need to adapt to the game. Not sure we have that at the minute but there’s no reason that can’t change in the future.

    In terms of how we change it, going into the play-off’s as underdogs might help us and it might bring a bit more focus to them. Difficult to change an awful lot in 3 weeks. Thought we showed at the weekend what we can do in attack, just a shame we couldn’t finish the chances off.
    I actually said to the old man that I thought we were ok in the first half. We basically got done off two plays: one play where we clocked off (Philbin try) and the other the Coote error where we got toasted on the short side with a mismatch (BMM try). Other than that we looked ok with the ball and there was certainly no need to massively deviate from plan and panic like the second half. As negatively as it could be construed, I'd also have taken the 2 points off the penalty a couple of minutes form the end, it would have settled everyone at least having points on the board but a comparatively minor point.

    I think Warrington started to gain confidence because they'd stopped us a few times and snuffed out Lomax but this is where the side need big game brains - other teams are entitled to play well and its likely they will in a final. I think if Saints had stayed settled and played more in the trenches they would have played their way back into the game more effectively but they just seemed to hit the panic button IMO.

    I also think we need to work out how to chase games. We are burning too many tackles with backs taking in one man drives. There are times when its common for sets to go Makinson-Grace-Percival-Makinson. That's too much and sides who are leading will concede the yards and defend out the remainder of the set knowing its us who are under pressure to score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Whether we say it or not, everybody else is saying it. That's the perception.

    The negative pressure is on. Massive pressure is on.

    The team can prove whether or not they are bottlers by winning the Grand Final.

    Whichever way you look at it though, keep winning all the games but then flunking it when it matters against lesser opposition, in a repeated fashion, then that is the tag you are going to be saddled with.
    Lesser opposition...when you turnover more money than Warrington's business model, then youll be a greater club.

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    So turnover and business model are what makes you the greater club ? Have you got a better business model than Wigan or Leeds ? possibly , are you a bigger club ? Certainly not ! Have you got a better business model than Saints ? Possibly. Are you a bigger club ? Probably not .
    Quote Originally Posted by rubber duckie View Post
    Lesser opposition...when you turnover more money than Warrington's business model, then youll be a greater club.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    But we also lost five grand finals back then. Admittedly only three of the mentioned leaders played in those matches and the others were replaced by the likes of Graham, Price and Roby. However i get your point in that probably more than anything we lack someone like Joynt who would get them together and give a good rollocking. Similar Farrell at Wigan and Peacock at Leeds.
    Those five Grand Finals largely came after the spine of that team had broken up and many of its leaders had left.

    Generally, though, the point is there. They had big game know how and, yes, big game bottle. The winning culture in those big matches brought about a belief that we could do anything, and instilled doubt in the opposition.

    Now the exact opposite is true. Our players seemingly struggle badly with the mental side of things, come the big match, and the opposition can sniff out our caginess and nervousness and go for the jugular.
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