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Thread: Knowles No Try?

  1. #101
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    Perhaps we should all just take a deep breath and remember that it was a 30 C Wembley final for the referee too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    I broadly agree but you have to make a stand as a club, unless you just want to have the p**s taken out of you again at some point in the remainder of the season
    Point taken and I think the club should forcibly air their views with Ganson and the RFL in private.

    In order to achieve results, however, I think the systems need looking at. One of the trolls on here has already unwittingly stressed the stupidity of the primacy of the on field decision by (completely ignoring the facts) suggesting that Thaler couldn’t have overturned Hicks’ decision. Why should the on field call have primacy when the ref making the call doesn’t have a clue what happened? Surely two well qualified refs, with the benefit of TV footage, should both be allowed to look at the footage, discuss it and reach a sensible decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Point taken and I think the club should forcibly air their views with Ganson and the RFL in private.

    In order to achieve results, however, I think the systems need looking at. One of the trolls on here has already unwittingly stressed the stupidity of the primacy of the on field decision by (completely ignoring the facts) suggesting that Thaler couldn’t have overturned Hicks’ decision. Why should the on field call have primacy when the ref making the call doesn’t have a clue what happened? Surely two well qualified refs, with the benefit of TV footage, should both be allowed to look at the footage, discuss it and reach a sensible decision.
    Was about to post exactly the same. Somehow we have a system where a ref who sees the incident once, at full speed, from one angle, often not having a clue but having to decide try or no try carrying more weight than someone sitting calmly in front of a screen with frame by frame and multiple angles

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    Quote Originally Posted by FW de KLERK View Post
    I want to say something rude to Hicks. Is that allowed or will I get locked up?
    I have a feeling that Hicks is an in house lawyer for the RFL. You may, therefore, want to study a bit of Private Eye language before framing any insult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    It is a disgrace how the refereeing body are helping to destroy our wonderful game. How the hell can you send a decision up to the video referee as a try or no try when you never saw what happened. it is a total nonsense. Why not just use the video ref as we used to. Allow him to decide when he views the footage.
    Anyway, we never lost because of the refereeing, Warrington had a try disallowed that was a try.
    I think if the club are so miffed them they should be all over the RFL, demanding answers.

    As I see it, better team won anyway. Philbin, Ratchford & Clarke were superb..Patton Not far behind them
    Dave Woods: the guy who makes Eddie Hemmings look like a decent commentator

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Perhaps we should all just take a deep breath and remember that it was a 30 C Wembley final for the referee too?
    Surely he wasn't tired out for that Knowles call?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Was about to post exactly the same. Somehow we have a system where a ref who sees the incident once, at full speed, from one angle, often not having a clue but having to decide try or no try carrying more weight than someone sitting calmly in front of a screen with frame by frame and multiple angles
    I agree with what you say, but when it was up to the video refs they were just as bad. I would be quite happy with the negative press we may receive if we copied RU.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Surely he wasn't tired out for that Knowles call?
    I was tired just walking up Wembley Way!

    ...No, he probably wasn't tired, but we all talk about the occasion getting to players in different ways, but we forget about the man in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Perhaps we should all just take a deep breath and remember that it was a 30 C Wembley final for the referee too?
    That shouldn't have influenced that ludicrous "no try" call after two minutes!

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    Saints have officially asked for a response from the Rfl in terms of the poor officiating

    Not just the try referral but the lack of consistency on the 10m for both teams too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I agree with what you say, but when it was up to the video refs they were just as bad. I would be quite happy with the negative press we may receive if we copied RU.
    I don’t think we’d get bad press. If we did we could just remind everyone that we introduced video refs first and that we are perfectly entitled to hone our systems by copying.

    The officiating decisions on Saturday stress the need to look at the systems in place for safeguarding the integrity of the game. We have to accept that referees and their assistants will make mistakes. We need checks and balances in place to ensure that TV replays, where available, reduce the possibility of one man errors creeping in.

    I’ve even seen Rugby Union refs look at the screen, see what has happened and change their decision without bothering to wait for the video ref to give a view. Rugby League on field refs seem to maintain a sort of legal fiction that the screen is invisible and that they can’t take any notice of it. In my view that is ludicrous.

    I’ve calmed down a lot since Saturday but I have no doubt that extremely poor decisions (the Knowles try being the worse) cost us dear. OK we can’t predict what might have happened if given but that try might have changed the course of the game. Because it’s on the BBC and because of its history (invented in 1895 and not by Sky) the Challenge Cup Final is our most prestigious and prominent game. It shouldn’t be spoiled by a poor refereeing system, which allows technology and the possibility of consultation between refereeing peers to be ignored.

    The system needs to change.
    Last edited by Suttoner; 26th August 2019 at 14:27. Reason: Funny symbols removed

  12. #112
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    Knowles should have been awarded the try. The other decisions complained about...they are the sort of things that happen in most matches and to most teams. These were not the reasons you lost.
    I do think you need to look at Holbrook decision making.
    I was critical of him last year for not having Fages on the bench, with him you would have been in a much stronger position. I think he made the same mistake for this match. He must have known there was a possibility that Coote would struggle and should have had Richardson on the bench, offering the option of switching Lomax to Full Back.
    He must have known we would be coming down the middle, not the wings and should have adjusted his defence accordingly.
    Compare Price. Sorted out discipline (particularly Hill). Got his team to carry out a game plan to perfection. Had his defence concentrate on attacking the ball rather than trying to get Makinson into touch. We won with possibly the most limited half back combination in living memory.
    It will be interesting to see how you recover from this as a team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    Knowles should have been awarded the try. The other decisions complained about...they are the sort of things that happen in most matches and to most teams. These were not the reasons you lost.
    I do think you need to look at Holbrook decision making.
    I was critical of him last year for not having Fages on the bench, with him you would have been in a much stronger position. I think he made the same mistake for this match. He must have known there was a possibility that Coote would struggle and should have had Richardson on the bench, offering the option of switching Lomax to Full Back.
    He must have known we would be coming down the middle, not the wings and should have adjusted his defence accordingly.
    Compare Price. Sorted out discipline (particularly Hill). Got his team to carry out a game plan to perfection. Had his defence concentrate on attacking the ball rather than trying to get Makinson into touch. We won with possibly the most limited half back combination in living memory.
    It will be interesting to see how you recover from this as a team.
    Saint's half back combination in the 2014 GF against Wigan was worse, especially when LH was carried off after a couple of minutes.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Saints have officially asked for a response from the Rfl in terms of the poor officiating

    Not just the try referral but the lack of consistency on the 10m for both teams too

    About time too! We've been on the wrong end of some ridiculous decisions in big games over the last couple of seasons and we get labelled as chokers! It's about time the RFL was called to account. I don't know what their response will be but if the club is finally making a noise about on field decisions (having previously been stoically silent), I think it is finally acknowledging what many of us on Redvee think. It must be pretty bad for the club to make official complaints. Perhaps like the majority of fans, they're fed up of officials determining the destination of trophies, rather than the two teams on the field. I can take the odd mistake here and there but Hicks and Thaler have robbed us of important results, culminating in the appalling display on Saturday when an 18 point swing to Wire on a blazing afternoon when Saints only had one player who'd experienced Wembley before encourages the mythology (even amongst our own "fans") that we can't compete in big games. Something needs to be done about it. It doesn't matter how good you are, you can't beat the ref!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Behave. I’m yet to read an opinion that says it wasn’t a try from any fan of any club
    Best not to feed the troll. The guy goes on RLFans & boasts how he winds people up on here. The guy was chuffed to bits because there was a thread about him in the build up to Wembley.

  16. #116
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    Personally I've started to calm down and move on. Warrington deserved their victory, and Saints contributed to their downfall in ways that have been well-covered on this forum. What continues to annoy me however is that as far as I am aware, Hicks has not offered any apology for his huge error that did such great damage to our chances of victory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    We won with possibly the most limited half back combination in living memory.
    Did you watch the 2014 Grand Final?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillInTesco View Post
    Did you watch the 2014 Grand Final?
    3rd choice halfback and a second rower, but it’s not a Top Trumps game which is why I said “possibly”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldBoy View Post
    Personally I've started to calm down and move on. Warrington deserved their victory, and Saints contributed to their downfall in ways that have been well-covered on this forum. What continues to annoy me however is that as far as I am aware, Hicks has not offered any apology for his huge error that did such great damage to our chances of victory.
    He won’t and correctly so. There would be chaos if he did. People would be demanding refs apologise after every error. The club should concentrate on controlling what they can control.

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    In the real time incident Hicks saw it , just as we all saw it , as a desperate dive and slap down at the bouncing ball, which then bounced away.
    Hicks was clear in his own mind it was a bounced ball, why should he have to go to video ref in that circumstance?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    Knowles should have been awarded the try. The other decisions complained about...they are the sort of things that happen in most matches and to most teams. These were not the reasons you lost.
    I do think you need to look at Holbrook decision making.
    I was critical of him last year for not having Fages on the bench, with him you would have been in a much stronger position. I think he made the same mistake for this match. He must have known there was a possibility that Coote would struggle and should have had Richardson on the bench, offering the option of switching Lomax to Full Back.
    He must have known we would be coming down the middle, not the wings and should have adjusted his defence accordingly.
    Compare Price. Sorted out discipline (particularly Hill). Got his team to carry out a game plan to perfection. Had his defence concentrate on attacking the ball rather than trying to get Makinson into touch. We won with possibly the most limited half back combination in living memory.
    It will be interesting to see how you recover from this as a team.
    Have a word with Rubber Duckie see if you can get him to post something with a bit of balance, not that I agree with everything you have written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superblue View Post
    In the real time incident Hicks saw it , just as we all saw it , as a desperate dive and slap down at the bouncing ball, which then bounced away.
    Hicks was clear in his own mind it was a bounced ball, why should he have to go to video ref in that circumstance?
    I called it a try live in the ground before the replay came on the screen and I was amazed it wasn't at least sent up. I don't wear redvee specs but if I can call it a try in the stands it's worth a look at the screen in a final. I kept saying to my mates he's got that down he's got that down. Then the replay came on and everyone went mad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superblue View Post
    In the real time incident Hicks saw it , just as we all saw it , as a desperate dive and slap down at the bouncing ball, which then bounced away.
    Hicks was clear in his own mind it was a bounced ball, why should he have to go to video ref in that circumstance?
    Why not go to the screen to check? It’s a massive occasion and it would’ve done no harm just to check. He checked the Makinson no try in the 2nd half and for me that was more of a bouncing ball and a clearer call to make.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superblue View Post
    In the real time incident Hicks saw it , just as we all saw it , as a desperate dive and slap down at the bouncing ball, which then bounced away.
    Hicks was clear in his own mind it was a bounced ball, why should he have to go to video ref in that circumstance?
    The circumstance of him scoring a try?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The frenchman View Post
    I called it a try live in the ground before the replay came on the screen and I was amazed it wasn't at least sent up. I don't wear redvee specs but if I can call it a try in the stands it's worth a look at the screen in a final. I kept saying to my mates he's got that down he's got that down. Then the replay came on and everyone went mad
    Thought it was a definite try, live, as well. Then I saw Knowles’ reaction and assumed that it was a knock on as he didn’t really react at all. Might not have made a difference but he should have been straight over to Hicks. Second biggest game of the season you play safe and have it checked but the arrogant sod thought he’d be ‘brave’. Disgraceful decision, one that should see him dropped to the Championship for the rest of the season. He won’t be though, of course.

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