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Thread: Knowles No Try?

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    Learning All The Songs bewareshadows's Avatar
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    My main issue is why we did not appeal to the ref?
    Im all for respecting the ref, but did Roby even walk over to hicks to ask him to check it?

    You can draw attention to an error without being abusive.

    Personally I think VAR is the better approach. Let the ref give the infield decision and let the video team check that there is no reasonable doubt.

    It would only have taken 1 replay for the video team to say hang on, you need to double check that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    The only individual who stank was Coote. Along with Lomax he's been our best player this year and he was physically fit enough to play, so we had to play him really.

    But his performance was so bad it was a massive detrimental factor having him there. He was lazy with his joining the line and didn't do enough to disrupt the line either. As a fullback he should be making a run to make the defenders think it's going to him, but he only ran when it was, making everything entirely predictable. His dropped bomb was an awful mistake which ultimate cost us the game. He doesn't do that I think we've got enough to equalise and ultimately win the game. Bottom line we should have won that game today and failed miserably. Warrington applied their gameplan briliantly and Patton's kicking was fantastic, but they are unfit and half of them were walking wounded, yet our attack was so bad it would have struggled to win the 1895 Cup nevermind the Challenge Cup.

    I think as a club the record in semi finals and finals has to be looked at. Its pityful how many big games we're favourites in and lose. It is potentially a mental thing, I think a lot of it today certainly was, but perhaps we need to be a bit more flexible tactially. We just play the same way regardless of the opposition and never change a thing. Warrington spotted they are inferior and changed their entire gameplan for the game. Had they not done that they'd have been hammered. Why don't we think a bit more? It was rumoured all week they were playing Currie and having an extra forward. I'd love to know if Holbrook even considered how to counteract that. All we had to do today was compress the defense and stop their forwards making easy metres from one out rugby. They weren't going wide, they only had one ball player on the field and he's terrible, Clark can't pass like a halfback either. Their gameplan was five drives and a bomb, quick play the balls. Simple, basic rugby you play at amateur level to keep the game tight. Respect the ball, don't take risks, just make metres and score from kicks. But we stayed with the same defensive width we've had all season, guarding the entire pitch when they were just trundling between the posts most of the time.

    But as I said on Twitter today was so bad, so negative and so frustrating that it's pointless even going over it as fans. It's enough to have us all tied in knots mentally.

    Any of you confident this team ever wins a meaningful trophy need to have a think. It could happen, but highly unlikely.


    In a nutshell really, I hope the next coach has a bit of a nasty streak as JH is a "nice guy" and he should be calling out the shirkers and why no sub to replace or reshuffle the obvious bad gamble with Coote.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    My main issue is why we did not appeal to the ref?
    Im all for respecting the ref, but did Roby even walk over to hicks to ask him to check it?

    You can draw attention to an error without being abusive.

    Personally I think VAR is the better approach. Let the ref give the infield decision and let the video team check that there is no reasonable doubt.

    It would only have taken 1 replay for the video team to say hang on, you need to double check that.
    Because of what happened yesterday, I think that where the video ref is available, s/he should be able to review the on field decision without reference and require the on field ref to look at the screen for a joint review. I also think the primacy of the on field decision needs to go. Decisions should be jointly made in order to relieve one individual of all responsibility/blame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I didnÂ’t post yesterday because I was too angry and irrational. I hope that explains a lot of yesterdayÂ’s posts, particularly ones slagging off Holbrook.

    My memory is that we couldnÂ’t win a Good Friday Derby for love nor money and he came along and suddenly we start winning them. And, by the way, it still means something to me to win a Derby. We were playing dire rugby and he has made us entertaining. It may take someone different to turn this playing group into winners but that doesnÂ’t justify re-writing history and demeaning what he has achieved.

    I agree what youÂ’ve posted about the players youÂ’ve named. The post you replied to suggested that Percival didnÂ’t play well but my memory is of him working hard and gaining metres. However, I donÂ’t have your confidence about winning in a GF. Losing yesterday will have done yet more psychological damage to a team, which despite success in the league, clearly lacks confidence/belief in big games. My view is that we needed to win yesterday to enable the players to get an invisible monkey off their backs. As a group they get rattled in big games and I think losing yesterday will have done them no end of harm.

    If the Knowles try (not even Warrington or Wigan trolls on the various threads have suggested it wasnÂ’t a try) had been allowed the missing confidence/belief may have shown up but after a promising 20 minutes panic mode set in and mistakes started to creep in and eventually became an avalanche.

    I hope that you are right about being able to win the GF but, having cooled down, I still donÂ’t have your confidence. I think that the defeat will make the clear psychological problems worse and it may take a new coach to deal with that. IÂ’m not prepared to write off the team but perhaps some new leaders with a history of winning finals will be needed. What I really want is for this team and this coach to prove me wrong but I donÂ’t think they can.

    The additional problem, highlighted by someone else, is that nobody will be afraid to play us in playoff games or the final.

    PS Sorry for the funny A’t bits. Nothing to do with me. Is it iPads?
    Suttoner I am confident because our three playmakers will not make that many errors again in one game.
    The only reservation I have is that we have three meaningless games, we will put Wembley to bed with a thrashing of Cas but we need a bit of a meaningful game before the playoffs. The other nagging issue is we do not seem to take a week off well we become "clunky" as JH himself puts it. We will wing the GF with the same style we opened the season with efficient rugby based on defence, but Coote has to be fit.
    Last edited by Tallaght Tiger; 25th August 2019 at 14:40. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Suttoner I am confident because our three playmakers will not make that many errors again in one game.
    The only reservation I have is that we have three meaningless games, we will put Wembley to bed with a thrashing of Cas but we need a bit of a meaningful game before the playoffs. The other nagging issue is we do not seem to take a week off well we become "clunky" as JH himself puts it. We will wing the GF with the same style we opened the season with efficient rugby based on defence, but Coote has to be fit.
    The next 3 may seem easy, but at least they are competitive games. At least we should have everyone match fit by the end. As you say a week off is not ideal for us right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Suttoner I am confident because our three playmakers will not make that many errors again in one game.
    The only reservation I have is that we have three meaningless games, we will put Wembley to bed with a thrashing of Cas but we need a bit of a meaningful game before the playoffs. The other nagging issue is we do not seem to take a week off well we become "clunky" as JH himself puts it. We will wing the GF with the same style we opened the season with efficient rugby based on defence, but Coote has to be fit.
    I sincerely hope you are right. I'd love us to go into the GF as underdogs and win. Let's hope you're right and I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Suttoner; 25th August 2019 at 14:50. Reason: Predictive text

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    Every one of the three teams we play has something to play for yet so they will all be competitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Agreed. It really is sour grapes from us if we keep pointing to that.

    Wire turned up with a plan & executed it to perfection. I thought they were clearly the better side.

    We now know we have a huge problem in big games. But it's gone for me now. Challenge Cup was the one, league is just a circus of a play off format
    I usually agree with most of your posts Ralph and you obviously know the game. However I must take up the "sour grapes" thing. Hicks and Thaler made three key decisions that put paid to our chances. Firstly the Knowles try, enough said, then our second "try" which shows that we had possession and it was ripped out, play on, not according to Thaler, finally the first Warrington try from a scrum in a great attacking position, given because Grace knocked on. Replays clearly show that the Wire player knocked the ball in to Grace. That's an 18 point swing to Wire. Very few teams are going to come back from that, especially a team full of youngsters. It was obvious our plan was to hit them hard and early. The heat, and all the bad press combined with their poor form and no Austin would than have seen them fold. Instead of which Hicks and his team of bumbling idiots (and that's being kind!) give them an 18 point boost. On top of which the game was continually stopped for "injuries" whilst Wires big men recovered form the pace. This isn't sour grapes mate, it's all fact. Posters come on here and slag of JH and individual players, but how the hell can we win big games when this sort of thing happens time and time again against us? I acknowledge that refs can make mistakes, but not to go to a VR in one of the biggest games of the season with a huge audience staggers belief. From his position he couldn't possibly have been certain that we had or hadn't scored, so he's wrong twice, pathetic.

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    Absolutely shambolic decision and one I'm still no wiser as to why he at least didn't look at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Absolutely shambolic decision and one I'm still no wiser as to why he at least didn't look at it.
    Possibly two reasons I can think of

    1. He’s an arrogant little twit
    2. He over-compensated and massively favoured Warrington following the story about the “death threat”

    I doubt any team could win a game where they receive 0 points for a try when the other team receives 6 points for theirs

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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    My main issue is why we did not appeal to the ref?
    Im all for respecting the ref, but did Roby even walk over to hicks to ask him to check it?

    You can draw attention to an error without being abusive.

    Personally I think VAR is the better approach. Let the ref give the infield decision and let the video team check that there is no reasonable doubt.

    It would only have taken 1 replay for the video team to say hang on, you need to double check that.
    reason there was no appeal after the Percy no try was Hick sprinted to the 20 meter line,,,,, at no time other than that did he sprint.... so if the REF as run quickly to a restart u can say any thing u have to get back and defend.

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    will use Hicks own words..... he referees in a manner yto keep the crowd entertained... that means he says he does not have to penalise a team if they break rules or say Knock on.. or be off side.
    So it could be he did not want saints to score and the Wire to chase the game(like saint had to do) if saints go 12 points clear then its game over.. the way the game went it made GOOD ENERTAINMENT..... my view however not good rugby...
    we even had a new vertionof the rule of players having CRAMP..... now we wait for the MEDICS to say they are fine to continue.. as game godson more and more players cramp ref says OK stop the game....,,, only in final 3mins did he say u have to play the ball and no treatment...
    my understanding is the game stops for a HEAD injury not cramp..... trainers are allowed on the field so game is not stopped... if u cant play he ball for a reason then another player from your team plays the ball 5 metre in field from where you will now be teated...
    BUT TO PLY TO THE LAWS AWAYS STOPS THE ENTERTAINMENT

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    Also I thought water carriers coaching sides had been banned? The Wire WC was in the ingoal several times directing the defense.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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    Does anyone really think a ref wouldn’t hand a decision up to the video ref because of previous death threats from one chopper fan of one of the teams? Really?

    It’s a red herring - he just made a clanger, simple as that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    Does anyone really think a ref wouldn’t hand a decision up to the video ref because of previous death threats from one chopper fan of one of the teams? Really?

    It’s a red herring - he just made a clanger, simple as that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Is anyone still buying this? He made a mistake? No, he made many "mistakes", strangely most of them regarding Saints. Firstly, he said it (Knowles's "try") wasn't a try, when from where he was positioned behind the two players diving for the ball he obviously couldn't see, (he knows he couldn't see, so to not send it to the VR is more than a mistake). Secondly in a game of this magnitude, since he couldn't see, he should've gone to the VR, he didn't. He then sends up another Saints "try" to the VR, (he must have remembered the facility by then) saying it was a "no try" on the field. Then some minutes later when Wire knock a ball in to Grace, he awards Wire the scrum in an attacking area from which they score. When Coote missed his conversion Wire players encroached, didn't affect the kicker but should still have been retaken. He halted the game constantly as Wire players collapsed with "cramp" only to be sprinting around seconds later (they've performed this dying swan act all season, with mixed results). Hicks knew that if Saints scored early it would probably result in a one sided predictable result. Neither he, nor the broadcasters wanted this. The pathetic attempt at redressing his "mistakes" by handing a Wire "try" to Bargain Basement Ben Thaler to disallow was staggering in its duplicity. These buffoons must think we're as stupid as they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    Also I thought water carriers coaching sides had been banned? The Wire WC was in the ingoal several times directing the defense.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    Thought he was named in the 19!

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    Quote Originally Posted by poshscouser View Post
    will use Hicks own words..... he referees in a manner yto keep the crowd entertained... that means he says he does not have to penalise a team if they break rules or say Knock on.. or be off side.
    So it could be he did not want saints to score and the Wire to chase the game(like saint had to do) if saints go 12 points clear then its game over.. the way the game went it made GOOD ENERTAINMENT..... my view however not good rugby...
    we even had a new vertionof the rule of players having CRAMP..... now we wait for the MEDICS to say they are fine to continue.. as game godson more and more players cramp ref says OK stop the game....,,, only in final 3mins did he say u have to play the ball and no treatment...
    my understanding is the game stops for a HEAD injury not cramp..... trainers are allowed on the field so game is not stopped... if u cant play he ball for a reason then another player from your team plays the ball 5 metre in field from where you will now be teated...
    BUT TO PLY TO THE LAWS AWAYS STOPS THE ENTERTAINMENT
    Succinct, correct and exposing our game for the farce it has become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    The next 3 may seem easy, but at least they are competitive games. At least we should have everyone match fit by the end. As you say a week off is not ideal for us right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Every one of the three teams we play has something to play for yet so they will all be competitive.
    All RL games are competitive, the old saying of taking to the field without being commited causes injury.
    The games are meaningless, nothing will be won if we win them all, nothing will be lost if we lose them all. The Wembley team will want to play quickly to get it out of their systems and Cas will feel the brunt of that because it is so soon after. We need an emotional investment game one where the stakes are high one were nerves play a part, not two chances of getting to a GF. Jamie Peacock said after the Halifax semi what Saints have done this year and last is very nice but it is not challenging for major honors, mind you he said yesterday we will win by 30.

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    After watching the game back today.When the Knowles try was not referred to the video ref I did not see one saints player go running to the ref asking him to have another look at it.Can you imagine what the Warrington players would have done if it had been them that had been in the same position.They would have made sure the game wasn’t restarted until they had at least made him think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    Is anyone still buying this? He made a mistake? No, he made many "mistakes", strangely most of them regarding Saints. Firstly, he said it (Knowles's "try") wasn't a try, when from where he was positioned behind the two players diving for the ball he obviously couldn't see, (he knows he couldn't see, so to not send it to the VR is more than a mistake). Secondly in a game of this magnitude, since he couldn't see, he should've gone to the VR, he didn't. He then sends up another Saints "try" to the VR, (he must have remembered the facility by then) saying it was a "no try" on the field. Then some minutes later when Wire knock a ball in to Grace, he awards Wire the scrum in an attacking area from which they score. When Coote missed his conversion Wire players encroached, didn't affect the kicker but should still have been retaken. He halted the game constantly as Wire players collapsed with "cramp" only to be sprinting around seconds later (they've performed this dying swan act all season, with mixed results). Hicks knew that if Saints scored early it would probably result in a one sided predictable result. Neither he, nor the broadcasters wanted this. The pathetic attempt at redressing his "mistakes" by handing a Wire "try" to Bargain Basement Ben Thaler to disallow was staggering in its duplicity. These buffoons must think we're as stupid as they are.
    Prez you are making a case but it is very weak and built around suspicion after the Knowles mistake. They had one chalked off for nothing I know we did not see the grounding but judging by Tommy`s face as he was getting up from the tackle it was a try. That was just after half time and I think Jonny had turned his back to the play on the blindside. We should have been out of sight in the first 20, we battered them they were hanging on to our coat tails. Our playmakers did not play and our defence both of which have been superb all year was caught by timing and lazy decisions due to a couple of lads being gassed from big game fever, they held in and we bombed.
    The Knowles try is odd and Roby was pointing out the cramp issues from early on in the second half but it is simply pushing the boundaries all teams do it, Hicks had the discretion yesterday to stop the game for water breaks if neccessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint mac View Post
    After watching the game back today.When the Knowles try was not referred to the video ref I did not see one saints player go running to the ref asking him to have another look at it.Can you imagine what the Warrington players would have done if it had been them that had been in the same position.They would have made sure the game wasn’t restarted until they had at least made him think about it.
    They had no chance to complain. Hicks was busy practising for the Olympic 100 metres. I've seen a referee escape from the crimescene so quickly.

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    You could call the Knowles decision a mistake if we didn't have a video ref, yesterday was just downright stupidity from an official.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FW de KLERK View Post
    They had no chance to complain. Hicks was busy practising for the Olympic 100 metres. I've seen a referee escape from the crimescene so quickly.
    I noticed that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint mac View Post
    After watching the game back today.When the Knowles try was not referred to the video ref I did not see one saints player go running to the ref asking him to have another look at it.Can you imagine what the Warrington players would have done if it had been them that had been in the same position.They would have made sure the game wasn’t restarted until they had at least made him think about it.
    Yeah, but I think we thought we were that much on top it was only a matter of time. It was Fages who kicked that his kicking was good yesterday, he had a good game, he put an around the back pass to Percy who took it high and could not quite get Regan away, on another day that was a run in. Small margins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Yeah, but I think we thought we were that much on top it was only a matter of time. It was Fages who kicked that his kicking was good yesterday, he had a good game, he put an around the back pass to Percy who took it high and could not quite get Regan away, on another day that was a run in. Small margins.
    That’s a thought that crossed my mind.Perhaps we are to nice as other posters have suggested.

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