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Thread: Hawkeye

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Buddy's Avatar
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    Default Hawkeye

    Interesting to see the NRL are looking at technology for offside and forward pass decisions.

    Thoughts?

    https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/07/29/...and-next-year/

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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    Would be difficult for forward passes as a pass that ultimately travels forward is often completely fine in rugby league

    How would they decide on it's initial path out of the hands?

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    My Dad to this day reckons Sky got rid of the high camera because it was showing refs up on the offside and forward pass. Good idea for me though, and would probably suit us more than most.

    We'd have had about 50 penalties on Saturday.

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    Can't see how SL would be able to afford it in reality.

    Unless you had it at ALL games it's another system changing the rules for 'Televised' games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Would be difficult for forward passes as a pass that ultimately travels forward is often completely fine in rugby league

    How would they decide on it's initial path out of the hands?
    I have no idea, it's not like tennis or cricket where Hawkeye tracks the direction of the ball.

    It does read like the forward pass thing is further away though

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    I have no idea, it's not like tennis or cricket where Hawkeye tracks the direction of the ball.

    It does read like the forward pass thing is further away though

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    Very true, it does read like that. I’m 100% they could make it work for offsides but you’d have to question how much more accurate they need to be? It’s not a difficult decision although saying this I have noticed VR when the ref has had zero concept of perspective

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    I'm not convinced we need it. If it slows down the game, brings in more doubt it's just adding to arguments

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    I have no idea, it's not like tennis or cricket where Hawkeye tracks the direction of the ball.

    It does read like the forward pass thing is further away though

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    It could be done and reasonably simply. First of all the velocity, acceleration etc of players is already known from the device they wear inside their shirts. You could put microchips inside the ball with receivers in the posts, crossbar and even on every 10 metre line. It would then be a case of developing the algorithm and software to make the decision over 99% corect.
    Technology is still developing at an almost exponential rate.
    Video doctor appointments locally will be available very soon and your mobile devices will relay such things as blood pressure, temperature, heart rate etc etc to the doctor. Picture definition will increase, the possibilities are infinite.
    just to illustrate, back in the mid 1970's I'd just done my last exam for the year in analogue and digital techniques, and I went out for a few beers with some friends. I told them then that within 20 years people would have computers at home. They looked at me incredulously and basically told me I was ••••••ed (I was) and it was stupid, wouldn't happen.
    Lokl where we are now with technology and we've only just begun.

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    Whilst I agree that it might be feasible to do my concern would be the cost . Isn’t cost the reason why we don’t have video refs at every game ? For me we need to have video refs at all super league games because in my opinion televised games are refereed slightly differently . Would the game need to be televised to use the Hawkeye system ? Genuine question btw .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    It could be done and reasonably simply. First of all the velocity, acceleration etc of players is already known from the device they wear inside their shirts. You could put microchips inside the ball with receivers in the posts, crossbar and even on every 10 metre line. It would then be a case of developing the algorithm and software to make the decision over 99% corect.
    Technology is still developing at an almost exponential rate.
    Video doctor appointments locally will be available very soon and your mobile devices will relay such things as blood pressure, temperature, heart rate etc etc to the doctor. Picture definition will increase, the possibilities are infinite.
    just to illustrate, back in the mid 1970's I'd just done my last exam for the year in analogue and digital techniques, and I went out for a few beers with some friends. I told them then that within 20 years people would have computers at home. They looked at me incredulously and basically told me I was ••••••ed (I was) and it was stupid, wouldn't happen.
    Lokl where we are now with technology and we've only just begun.
    Hardly Nostradamus there Rogues! - home computers were a mass market item by 1980 and loads of people had them in the 70s already

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Hardly Nostradamus there Rogues! - home computers were a mass market item by 1980 and loads of people had them in the 70s already
    I had a TRS 80 in the early 1980's, cost a fortune lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    It could be done and reasonably simply. First of all the velocity, acceleration etc of players is already known from the device they wear inside their shirts. You could put microchips inside the ball with receivers in the posts, crossbar and even on every 10 metre line. It would then be a case of developing the algorithm and software to make the decision over 99% corect.
    Technology is still developing at an almost exponential rate.
    Video doctor appointments locally will be available very soon and your mobile devices will relay such things as blood pressure, temperature, heart rate etc etc to the doctor. Picture definition will increase, the possibilities are infinite.
    just to illustrate, back in the mid 1970's I'd just done my last exam for the year in analogue and digital techniques, and I went out for a few beers with some friends. I told them then that within 20 years people would have computers at home. They looked at me incredulously and basically told me I was ••••••ed (I was) and it was stupid, wouldn't happen.
    Lokl where we are now with technology and we've only just begun.
    Not sure if you would need all that, just use the GPS in the ball relative to the GPS on the back of the shirt, bring the datum together and work out the angle from the ball leaving the hand after 0.5 secs, but I'm not sure if we have GPS signals that are so accurate to within centimetres. The long forward direction ball brings in a lot errors in momentum + wind speed if we use GPS grid lines on the pitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    I had a TRS 80 in the early 1980's, cost a fortune lol.
    whatever happened to Tandy? Every high street used to have one

    5 years from now no high street will have a WH Smith either though

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    whatever happened to Tandy? Every high street used to have one

    5 years from now no high street will have a WH Smith either though
    If you can track the ball then you know its velocity. When a pass is made, the velocity of the ball changes (ie an acceleration occurs). Analysis of the acceleration vector, ie the forward component negative or positive can determine a forward pass. This is a simple calculation of the numeric data are available. Simple as that, provided the ball can be tracked at all times.

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    I don't think GPS is accurate enough for these purposes. Hawkeye relies on visual and/or radar tracking I think). I would have thought that some kind of RF tagging along with scanners might be the way forward but I don't know the range. Each player could have a tag and so could the ball and that would be easy. Tagging the ball itself would require more than one tag so the centre of the call could be calculated to allow for spin etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Meninga View Post
    I don't think GPS is accurate enough for these purposes. Hawkeye relies on visual and/or radar tracking I think). I would have thought that some kind of RF tagging along with scanners might be the way forward but I don't know the range. Each player could have a tag and so could the ball and that would be easy. Tagging the ball itself would require more than one tag so the centre of the call could be calculated to allow for spin etc.
    Sounds about right, I don't know enough about the technology but generally Hawkeye is used for fixed points, lines on tennis, a cricket wicket, goaline in football..

    There's too many factors in rugby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Meninga View Post
    If you can track the ball then you know its velocity. When a pass is made, the velocity of the ball changes (ie an acceleration occurs). Analysis of the acceleration vector, ie the forward component negative or positive can determine a forward pass. This is a simple calculation of the numeric data are available. Simple as that, provided the ball can be tracked at all times.
    So if a pass goes backwards deceleration occurs, so it's fine. If it's a flat pass presumably neither acceleration or deceleration occur, also fine. If it's a forward pass acceleration occurs and it's not fine

    Do external factors such as wind not have an impact? If I throw a flat pass and it's over a distance where the wind takes it forward would that not show as acceleration of the ball?

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    So if a pass goes backwards deceleration occurs, so it's fine. If it's a flat pass presumably neither acceleration or deceleration occur, also fine. If it's a forward pass acceleration occurs and it's not fine

    Do external factors such as wind not have an impact? If I throw a flat pass and it's over a distance where the wind takes it forward would that not show as acceleration of the ball?
    It used to be so simple

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    It won't be long before commentators are making big things out of the speed the ball was going at when one player makes a long pass to another just more dribble out of their mouths

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    Christ I never knew that lump on the players back could tell whether they had wind or not.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    So if a pass goes backwards deceleration occurs, so it's fine. If it's a flat pass presumably neither acceleration or deceleration occur, also fine. If it's a forward pass acceleration occurs and it's not fine

    Do external factors such as wind not have an impact? If I throw a flat pass and it's over a distance where the wind takes it forward would that not show as acceleration of the ball?
    I think the forward pass is based on the instantaneous acceleration of the ball as it is passed, so if it is blown forward by the wind it is legal.

    "BB]Ball is blown or bounces forward [/B]If the ball is passed correctly but bounces forward or is blown forward by the wind, there is no infringement and play should continue. (Extract from rules).

    To me, this would have to be done in conjunction with TV footage because as a player runs the ball often moves backwards or forwards relative to the player because of the motion of his arms, that is: the ball is almost constantly accelerating or decelerating. To determine a forward pass, you would probably have to replay the footage along with the numbers, so if you stop at the frame where the pass occurs you can then determine if it was forward or not. It is a different argument as to whether or not it is worth the effort.


    The idea of being able to detect offside at the PTB is, to me, are more exciting prospect. Let's face it, the sport needs to be rid the negative tactics that certain teams employ in order to slow down the game, and it seems that referees need some kind of assistance in this aspect of the game. 'Hawkeye' offside would force a correct 10m defensive line but would also then allow the referee more effectively to police the ruck. This should result in a faster, more attractive spectacle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Meninga View Post
    The idea of being able to detect offside at the PTB is, to me, are more exciting prospect. Let's face it, the sport needs to be rid the negative tactics that certain teams employ in order to slow down the game, and it seems that referees need some kind of assistance in this aspect of the game.
    Agree! I am sure to keep the game going referees have been told to ignore a lot at the play the ball, my pet hate is players who keep looking backwards at the referee to tell them to get off at the play the ball, also how the player marking often keeps his hand on the tackled players head? Players must be told or coached to do this, okay at first we would have a lot more penalties, but perhaps coaches would tell players then to stop! We need to get rid of the third player coming in when the tackle is virtually completed! TV games now we seem to only have two referees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybs View Post
    Agree! I am sure to keep the game going referees have been told to ignore a lot at the play the ball, my pet hate is players who keep looking backwards at the referee to tell them to get off at the play the ball, also how the player marking often keeps his hand on the tackled players head? Players must be told or coached to do this, okay at first we would have a lot more penalties, but perhaps coaches would tell players then to stop! We need to get rid of the third player coming in when the tackle is virtually completed! TV games now we seem to only have two referees?
    I'm with you on all of those points.

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    Here's a mad idea. Maybe we could have somebody running along the sidelines, possibly with a flag, who would be in a better position to see a forward pass and help the ref.......
    I bought a pack of luminous condoms last week. The wife's face lit up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_h View Post
    Here's a mad idea. Maybe we could have somebody running along the sidelines, possibly with a flag, who would be in a better position to see a forward pass and help the ref.......
    Nah. They'd just get in the way of the linesman.

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