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Thread: Reserve Grade Rugby

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk The Wee Waa Womble's Avatar
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    Default Reserve Grade Rugby

    https://www.rugby-league.com/article...confirmed-for-

    Back for 2020. All super league teams plus Bradford and Widnes to have reserve teams with applications from 5 more teams as well. Good news as far as I’m concerned.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    It's great news. Unless you're Gary Hetherington - although I suppose getting Leeds relegated might be a 'genius' way of avoiding having to run a reserve team.

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    Absolutely. And this will further strengthen the top flight.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Invisible View Post
    Absolutely. And this will further strengthen the top flight.



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    Great news and long over due. I hope they play a few at Ruskin.

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    Learning All The Songs SaintJon's Avatar
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    It's good news but didn't we at 1 stage have an U16s 18s 19s and academy (2 players over 23 allowed to play)? It's still not enough, what happens to the players who only start to really grow in their early to mid 20s? It's painting over the cracks but I suppose it's better than nothing.
    Last edited by SaintJon; 17th July 2019 at 13:55.

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    I’m in the minority I suppose when it comes to reserve grade. I’m not totally against it, however, I think it raises many questions, probably more than it answers, IMO.

    Firstly, what’s the standard going to be like? Is Josh Simm, for example, going to take more out of playing against Leigh’s reserves or more from a dual-reg/loan deal at Leigh’s first team level. I don’t want to be that person, but Football’s reserve level is a poor standard and players are better off out on loan. I wonder if this is the case for promising RL players. A spell out on dual-reg has helped the progress of James Bentley and Jack Ashworth no end, would they be at the same level if they were playing reserve rugby instead?

    Financially, is it worth it? I’m not necessarily saying we’ll have problems with the financial implications of running a reserve grade but there’s going to be potentially seven or eight Championship sides running reserve grades next year and I do wonder about it’s viability for some clubs and whether it’s really worth them running one or not. Is there a guarantee that London, for example, by far the smallest (financially) club in Super League are going to be able to firstly have the finances to take on enough bodies to make this worthwhile, whether they’ll have the finances to fund coach hire, insurance, kit cost, pitch cost, refereeing costs etc?

    Is there enough quality around to warrant such a move? Eighteen teams fielding a seventeen man squad is 306 players, that’s before you think about extra depth, granted some of those 306 will be existing eligible first team/Academy players but there’s a large proportion of that figure that isn’t, so where do these players come from and will they be of a sufficient quality that it’s actually worth persisting with?
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    I’m in the minority I suppose when it comes to reserve grade. I’m not totally against it, however, I think it raises many questions, probably more than it answers, IMO.

    Firstly, what’s the standard going to be like? Is Josh Simm, for example, going to take more out of playing against Leigh’s reserves or more from a dual-reg/loan deal at Leigh’s first team level. I don’t want to be that person, but Football’s reserve level is a poor standard and players are better off out on loan. I wonder if this is the case for promising RL players. A spell out on dual-reg has helped the progress of James Bentley and Jack Ashworth no end, would they be at the same level if they were playing reserve rugby instead?

    Financially, is it worth it? I’m not necessarily saying we’ll have problems with the financial implications of running a reserve grade but there’s going to be potentially seven or eight Championship sides running reserve grades next year and I do wonder about it’s viability for some clubs and whether it’s really worth them running one or not. Is there a guarantee that London, for example, by far the smallest (financially) club in Super League are going to be able to firstly have the finances to take on enough bodies to make this worthwhile, whether they’ll have the finances to fund coach hire, insurance, kit cost, pitch cost, refereeing costs etc?

    Is there enough quality around to warrant such a move? Eighteen teams fielding a seventeen man squad is 306 players, that’s before you think about extra depth, granted some of those 306 will be existing eligible first team/Academy players but there’s a large proportion of that figure that isn’t, so where do these players come from and will they be of a sufficient quality that it’s actually worth persisting with?
    A very negative way to look at it. IMO what it gives is players a chance to play in competitive games for their own clubs instead of having to go out on loan or DR, that's not to say that these deals won't happen but why should we pay players to go and turn out for Leigh? I accept your point on the expense but we're talking about professional sports teams, not the Dog & Duck, it really gets on tits the sport constantly crying poverty but I see precious little from most clubs in terms of raising proper revenue and standing on their own feet. It gives the club a chance to give recovering players game time and be in control about exactly how long they play, it also gives us a chance to offer players trial games instead of just asking them to train.

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    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    Good news, gives a more appropriate in-club pathway through to the first team and we won’t lose as many players who don’t make it by the age of 19. Good chance to get 500-1000 more fans through the gate every other week too spending a few bob on food and drink

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    A very negative way to look at it. IMO what it gives is players a chance to play in competitive games for their own clubs instead of having to go out on loan or DR, that's not to say that these deals won't happen but why should we pay players to go and turn out for Leigh? I accept your point on the expense but we're talking about professional sports teams, not the Dog & Duck, it really gets on tits the sport constantly crying poverty but I see precious little from most clubs in terms of raising proper revenue and standing on their own feet. It gives the club a chance to give recovering players game time and be in control about exactly how long they play, it also gives us a chance to offer players trial games instead of just asking them to train.
    I think that's unfair of you to say he's being negative. He has analysed and presented his thoughts very well. He certainly made me think about it because my initial response was 'not before time'. Some of our better young prospects might not grow as quickly in reserve or 'A' team grade. We'll have to wait and see won't we?

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    would be good if we could get a channel to show a match a week and round up .

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy h View Post
    would be good if we could get a channel to show a match a week and round up .
    It would be good if we could get sky to do it properly for SL.

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    I've played both Reserve grade rugby and Championship. I can easily say that when I was 16-19/20 then playing reserve grade was a massive step up from academy when it involved the 3 overage player rule. I was a 16 year old at times coming across genuine super league players which massively benefited me as a player as it provided a challenge.

    Reserve Grade needs to be in full effect for at least 3 years to get that base of players who are 21 + for it to be genuine. At the moment it will just involve players from the age of 18/19 as that is the age of most academy players on the books. Once it gets to high enough level then the next step is to either break into the first team or be wanted on loan by championship/superleague clubs due to performances in a high level reserve grade set up.

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    It's definitely the right thing to do, but it's a big risk. I don't think they've necessarily thought this through properly. I think reserve grade is essential in some form, but done badly it could be a complete waste of time. I'm also not sure it needs to actually be 100% linked to the Super League side behind it. Whether that means adopting the existing semi professional clubs formally or starting new sides I don't know, but just blindly forcing the Super League sides to do it seems a bit silly to me. You could see a lot of clubs under investing in it, a lot of games called off and 100 point scorelines. You can already hear the debates about the benefits of it, Saints go to Hull KR/London/Salford and win 144-0, is it worth doing or should we be sending the players on dual reg to Leigh instead?

    What happens to dual reg if there is a reserves? What happens to the Championship and League 1 clubs who are suddenly bereft of players as the best ones are playing at the Super League sides? What happens when Saints and Wire reserves are a better side than half of Super League and the entire Championship and League 1/2 sides? Are they allowed into the Challenge Cup? If not, why not? This is where the Aussie system could work better. Formally linked semi pro sides with their own branding seems to make more sense to me, although I'm not sure what that would look like. The Aussie system seems to work (Does anyone know what it's reputation is like in Aus?) because those sides have their own links with the community and aren't just solely a reserve team playing in front of 200 people in an empty stadium. They have people running them that care about the club and progressing it and developing players. A lot of SL clubs struggle to exist themselves, how much effort are they really going to put into a reserve grade?

    I don't have the perfect answer to this, just seems to be a lot of holes in the current plans. I think as a game they need to get together and work out a sustainable long-term system to work towards.

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    Good news is this for me. There is a change in the Regs with the Academy, which will now become an Under-18s rather than Under-19s as it is now, but dual registration and loans are not affected.

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    Big chance for Saints TV ? I would buy into it to watch reserve games and the ladies team if they could get it up and running?

    Reserves also keep squad members match fit.
    Learned comment from The Don

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    I think this is a good move and a step in the right direction. Obviously needs to be a sustained effort and thought through to allow the system to be beneficial into the future and how to navigate the challenges that will arise due to the change. Some very legitimate questions being raised in this thread and ones to be thought through.

    For me though, it's something to build on and will take a few years to bed in and create and build a system that works to progress the sport in this country. I think a small amount of players would benefit from a dual-reg or loans system and don;t see why that can't carry on alongside the reserves. I think having a whole system based on dual-reg is not the way forward as it can make championship teams and lower leagues overly reliant on super league players. It will be interesting to see how it goes, but I think it will need time and hope that the sport can find a way to make it a success

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    It's great news. Unless you're Gary Hetherington - although I suppose getting Leeds relegated might be a 'genius' way of avoiding having to run a reserve team.
    Any annoyance caused to that clown can only be seen as a positive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Any annoyance caused to that clown can only be seen as a positive.




    With you there Dave.
    It would seem that both Hetherington and Leeds have lost much credibility over this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Christopher View Post
    I think this is a good move and a step in the right direction. Obviously needs to be a sustained effort and thought through to allow the system to be beneficial into the future and how to navigate the challenges that will arise due to the change. Some very legitimate questions being raised in this thread and ones to be thought through.

    For me though, it's something to build on and will take a few years to bed in and create and build a system that works to progress the sport in this country. I think a small amount of players would benefit from a dual-reg or loans system and don;t see why that can't carry on alongside the reserves. I think having a whole system based on dual-reg is not the way forward as it can make championship teams and lower leagues overly reliant on super league players. It will be interesting to see how it goes, but I think it will need time and hope that the sport can find a way to make it a success
    Pretty much my thoughts too
    "The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
    Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............

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    Quote Originally Posted by wirefox View Post
    With you there Dave.
    It would seem that both Hetherington and Leeds have lost much credibility over this issue.
    I don't think either have had much credibility for a good while, certainly not Hetherington anyway. I can just see him and sour faced wife fuming in their expensive but distastefully decorated home.

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    If Saints had their own TV available to stream involving first and reserve team games I would pay for it. I would love to have the chance to stream full matches even if they were not live and if there was no commentary so I assume it wouldn’t cost much to set up and therefore be mainly profitable as an income stream for the club.

    I wonder how much money they could generate doing that? They run academy teams anyway so I’m not sure how much more it would cost in players’ wages above the current system. Current squads of 26 to 30 players with another 20 odd under 19 players should be adequate. I can see it helping to bring through more talent too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    If Saints had their own TV available to stream involving first and reserve team games I would pay for it. I would love to have the chance to stream full matches even if they were not live and if there was no commentary so I assume it wouldn’t cost much to set up and therefore be mainly profitable as an income stream for the club.

    I wonder how much money they could generate doing that? They run academy teams anyway so I’m not sure how much more it would cost in players’ wages above the current system. Current squads of 26 to 30 players with another 20 odd under 19 players should be adequate. I can see it helping to bring through more talent too

    Don't think they could stream firstbteam games because of Sky tv

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk The Wee Waa Womble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Don't think they could stream firstbteam games because of Sky tv
    Definitely couldn't but surely could show the first team matches in full later in the week? That's what all the club football channels do. Live stream all reserve, academy and women's matches and have full first team matches available to view a couple of days after the match and I'm sure there'd be plenty of subscribers.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Definitely couldn't but surely could show the first team matches in full later in the week? That's what all the club football channels do. Live stream all reserve, academy and women's matches and have full first team matches available to view a couple of days after the match and I'm sure there'd be plenty of subscribers.
    I'd pay for that service

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