Chapel House Motor Company Limited Advertising Banner
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: 'Shoulder tackle' by attacking player

  1. #1
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Golborne
    Age
    56
    Posts
    339
    Rep Power
    0

    Default 'Shoulder tackle' by attacking player

    OK serious and genuine question, or one for debate if anyone will enlighten me please

    The injury to Aaron Smith tonight, follows a pattern this year of what I've seen described by Sky Sports punters, as certain attacking players having the 'ability to turn in the tackle' as they are in attacking play, meaning their leading shoulder comes into contact with the defender first. Often, that contact is with the head from what I've seen.

    Why then is that deemed acceptable contact, when had it been the other way around and the defender made the turn to lead with the shoulder, it's deemed a shoulder charge and is punishable as a penalty? Thats perhaps exemplified by the sin binning tonight of the Warrington player for leading with the shoulder (although I am not inviting direct comparison of the two contacts, merely the principle).

    Why are they not the same offence? I should add I have asked a friend who is an experienced amateur referee (but did not see the incidents in tonights game so was only commenting generally), and his view is that leading with the shoulder into contact is the same as attacker or defender, and should have the same consistent punishment.I tend to agree with him. Thoughts and/or comments?

  2. #2
    Learning All The Songs St Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Haydock
    Posts
    1,273
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    For me a shoulder charge is a shoulder charge. Whether that's attacking or defending.

    I hope Smith is ok. He looked a tad uncomfortable. Considering we lost him early on which certainly disrupted us early doors, we coped well.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    RFL Championship / Super League (17) - 1931–32, 1952–53, 1958–59, 1965–66, 1969–70, 1970–71, 1974–75, 1996, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2006, 2014, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022

    Challenge Cup (13) - 1955–56, 1960–61, 1965–66, 1971–72, 1975–76, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2021

    World Club Challenge (3) - 2001, 2007, 2023

    League Leader's Shield (9) - 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2022

  3. #3
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk The Wee Waa Womble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Harrogate
    Age
    33
    Posts
    7,965
    Rep Power
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scots saint View Post
    OK serious and genuine question, or one for debate if anyone will enlighten me please

    The injury to Aaron Smith tonight, follows a pattern this year of what I've seen described by Sky Sports punters, as certain attacking players having the 'ability to turn in the tackle' as they are in attacking play, meaning their leading shoulder comes into contact with the defender first. Often, that contact is with the head from what I've seen.

    Why then is that deemed acceptable contact, when had it been the other way around and the defender made the turn to lead with the shoulder, it's deemed a shoulder charge and is punishable as a penalty? Thats perhaps exemplified by the sin binning tonight of the Warrington player for leading with the shoulder (although I am not inviting direct comparison of the two contacts, merely the principle).

    Why are they not the same offence? I should add I have asked a friend who is an experienced amateur referee (but did not see the incidents in tonights game so was only commenting generally), and his view is that leading with the shoulder into contact is the same as attacker or defender, and should have the same consistent punishment.I tend to agree with him. Thoughts and/or comments?
    Taking a step into contact naturally dips your shoulder into your opponent. If the opponent is using good tackle technique then their head will be nowhere near the other player's shoulder. By all means charge players for raising an elbow in contact but to charge someone for leading with the shoulder with ball in hand would be farcical, taking contact would only leave you with the option of running fully upright and therefore make you an easy target.

    I hope Smith is alright but it was poor tackle technique that put him in that situation, not any sort of foul play from the Warrington player.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

  4. #4
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Stood at the back of Stand B in Knowsley Road
    Posts
    1,884
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Taking a step into contact naturally dips your shoulder into your opponent. If the opponent is using good tackle technique then their head will be nowhere near the other player's shoulder. By all means charge players for raising an elbow in contact but to charge someone for leading with the shoulder with ball in hand would be farcical, taking contact would only leave you with the option of running fully upright and therefore make you an easy target.

    I hope Smith is alright but it was poor tackle technique that put him in that situation, not any sort of foul play from the Warrington player.
    Agreed, it's up to the defender and his tackling technique.
    Hope Smith is ok but if I recall he got injured in a similar way when he was on loan to Hull KR last year.
    Unfortunately being relatively slight in stature some of the big forwards are going to target him

  5. #5
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    970
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous Grouse View Post
    Agreed, it's up to the defender and his tackling technique.
    Hope Smith is ok but if I recall he got injured in a similar way when he was on loan to Hull KR last year.
    Unfortunately being relatively slight in stature some of the big forwards are going to target him
    In today's press Holbrook has said that the Rugby League should look at the player in questions running technique, I don't think he's deliberately trying to harm the tackler but he leads with the shoulder, so what's the difference between that and shoulder charge.On the flip side it's the same with Thompson and accusations of raising his knees . The players aren't deliberately trying to harm their fellow players, it's just the way they play

  6. #6
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    8,872
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    As just mentioned Holbrook in his post match commentary made a balanced view that although malicious the shoulder charge technique needs looking at. At the moment 3 coaches have raised concern about it and the disciplinary has already put out a caution advisory, at the end of the day its a shoulder charge. The worse one was the Cooper elbow charge into Walmsley's neck.

  7. #7
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Belgian Saint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    11,182
    Rep Power
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    As just mentioned Holbrook in his post match commentary made a balanced view that although malicious the shoulder charge technique needs looking at. At the moment 3 coaches have raised concern about it and the disciplinary has already put out a caution advisory, at the end of the day its a shoulder charge. The worse one was the Cooper elbow charge into Walmsley's neck.
    We should either make it legal for attacker and defender (not to the head) or ban it for both. The end result is the same. I thought this when Philbin did Greenwood a couple of weeks ago. I think he broke his rib(s). Being that this has come from two Warrington players, is this something they are being coached to do?

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    N-L-W
    Posts
    606
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    What are you supposed to do as an attacker? Stand bolt upright and let someone snap you in half?

    Dipping your shoulder on impact is a natural reaction. It’s up to the tackler to either; be stronger than the attacker or to get their technique right by going lower if they’re a smaller player like smith.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Upside
    Non Members

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by undertheradar View Post
    What are you supposed to do as an attacker? Stand bolt upright and let someone snap you in half?

    Dipping your shoulder on impact is a natural reaction. It’s up to the tackler to either; be stronger than the attacker or to get their technique right by going lower if they’re a smaller player like smith.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Agreed, to add your carrying a ball so only really have the shoulder to defend your body and ball carrying arm

    Not a malicious play by the attacker, it can have consequences when the attacker is big and running hard, are small players allowed to do it but not big?

    I think it's more about tackling technique

  10. #10
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    845
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scots saint View Post
    OK serious and genuine question, or one for debate if anyone will enlighten me please

    The injury to Aaron Smith tonight, follows a pattern this year of what I've seen described by Sky Sports punters, as certain attacking players having the 'ability to turn in the tackle' as they are in attacking play, meaning their leading shoulder comes into contact with the defender first. Often, that contact is with the head from what I've seen.

    Why then is that deemed acceptable contact, when had it been the other way around and the defender made the turn to lead with the shoulder, it's deemed a shoulder charge and is punishable as a penalty? Thats perhaps exemplified by the sin binning tonight of the Warrington player for leading with the shoulder (although I am not inviting direct comparison of the two contacts, merely the principle).

    Why are they not the same offence? I should add I have asked a friend who is an experienced amateur referee (but did not see the incidents in tonights game so was only commenting generally), and his view is that leading with the shoulder into contact is the same as attacker or defender, and should have the same consistent punishment.I tend to agree with him. Thoughts and/or comments?
    Brilliant Post. Something that’s been bugging me for ages. Would be interesting to hear what the RL Stance is on this.
    I don’t think shoulder charges should be Penalised as long as there is no contact with the head,but the current law leaves this debate open.
    Last edited by knowsleyroaders; 29th June 2019 at 09:48.

  11. #11
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    8,872
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Agreed, to add your carrying a ball so only really have the shoulder to defend your body and ball carrying arm

    Not a malicious play by the attacker, it can have consequences when the attacker is big and running hard, are small players allowed to do it but not big?

    I think it's more about tackling technique
    Same player went 3 times with a similar shoulder to Fages, but Theo used a different tackling technique and avoided the full impact, Roby is similar in the way he moves his body. Smith was just unlucky and too inexperienced to make adjustments in fact he has copt quite a few hard impacts this season, maybe our defensive coach needs to work with him.

    I reckon if there is another incident like that though with an opposition player the RFL disciplinary will need to go beyond the current cautionary warning.

  12. #12
    Learning All The Songs bewareshadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    1,921
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    It is a tricky one.

    If you were going to barge a door down you would not run flat onto the door. This is what rl is players constantly trying to break the line.

    The defensive shoulder charge was a counter to this, but miss hits meant it was banned.

    Not sure you can do that for a rl attacker.

    But they can be strict about raising arms into a tackle. A defender can adjust their tackling technique to avoid shoulders. They can't do that to avoid forearms and elbows that are moved at the last moment before impact.

  13. #13
    In The West Stand Dux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Liverpool
    Posts
    5,572
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    I feel sorry for Aaron but when I read discussions like this I worry about what sort of game we’ll be watching in 20-30 years.

  14. #14
    In The South Stand
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,522
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I feel sorry for Aaron but when I read discussions like this I worry about what sort of game we’ll be watching in 20-30 years.
    I know what you mean,if we keep taking more and more out of the game because someone might get hurt then we may well be watching tick and pass in the future.

  15. #15
    Got A Season Ticket complex.matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Manchester
    Age
    35
    Posts
    323
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    I have no problem with dipping your shoulder when attacking.

    It was the forearm to Walmsleys throat I have a problem with!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    In The West Stand Ralph Fridge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Around
    Posts
    5,517
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    Smith got boomed end of story.

  17. #17
    Upside
    Non Members

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Smith got boomed end of story.
    Agreed

  18. #18
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NEWTOWN AREA
    Posts
    1,174
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Agreed
    what we need to do is next time we play them get our big lads running hard at him give him something to think about ,

  19. #19
    Upside
    Non Members

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy h View Post
    what we need to do is next time we play them get our big lads running hard at him give him something to think about ,

    That's pretty much it, he had a good game, was very strong in contact and you need to meet them early with the ball.

    Our skills paid off in the end, they hit us really hard but our lads took it and when they got a chance we took it

  20. #20
    Learning All The Songs bewareshadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    1,921
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Is there any news on the lad?

  21. #21
    Upside
    Non Members

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    Is there any news on the lad?

    I hope so, I like to see strong contact but not leading to serious injury, hope he is fine but there's been no update as I'm aware

  22. #22
    Noooobie
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    This may not be the best thread to bring this up but ... in the post match interview Steve price stated " the second half penalty count was 6 - 1" in favour of Saints, This is very much incorrect, I suspect this is his way of deflecting his failures and and inability to beat the saints .. not fit for purpose in my opinion. oh and before the stats do make it out there , my second half count is Warrington had 2 penalties and 4 handling errors, Saints had 5 penalties and 3 handling errors..... you may have a pilot in your club but i suggest a person with clean specs and enough fingers to count on, might be a help....

  23. #23
    In The South Stand
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Wirral
    Posts
    2,662
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Two tough hombres, something had to give. Not sure how an attacking player can make an impact (unless it's with the ball carrying arm, which is obviously a non no, as the impact could well forfeit possession). I think this particular Warrington player is an absolute brick outhouse and something has to give if you're in his way. No complaints from me. A million miles away from a number of cheap shots Warrington put on us.Hope our boy gets well soon.

  24. #24
    Learning All The Songs roy litherland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Moss Bank
    Posts
    1,986
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    Is there any news on the lad?
    Saints just released an update = no serious injury , just "whiplash" has been released from hospital, great news.
    roy litherland it's happened i told you it would

  25. #25
    Learning All The Songs bewareshadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    1,921
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by roy litherland View Post
    Saints just released an update = no serious injury , just "whiplash" has been released from hospital, great news.
    Fantastic, grest outcome.

    Thanks for the update.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •