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Thread: Referees killing the game

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    Default Referees killing the game

    Thought Thaler was embarrassing on Friday, some of the calls he made where blatantly poor or laughable, forward passes being given for perfectly good passes, allowing Leeds to just lie in in the tackle after he had called held and his genuinely shocking game management that ended up with the kick off after the high tackles. Its not just him, all the refs are shockingly poor and they are killing the standard and quality of the game, its making it really tough to watch as the standard is getting driven down by slow play. Something has to be done quickly by the rfl about the standard of officiating.

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    The way he speaks to players as well, like they're idiots. I understand respect the referee but it works both ways. If the players spoke to him like he does to them then they'd be sent off.

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    Always get the sense Thaler hates us as a club. You can see his 'ha, that'll show you' body language and facial expressions all the time. He's also one of those referees who will hammer a team with penalties for the smallest of things, seems to get really wound up a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Thought Thaler was embarrassing on Friday, some of the calls he made where blatantly poor or laughable, forward passes being given for perfectly good passes, allowing Leeds to just lie in in the tackle after he had called held and his genuinely shocking game management that ended up with the kick off after the high tackles. Its not just him, all the refs are shockingly poor and they are killing the standard and quality of the game, its making it really tough to watch as the standard is getting driven down by slow play. Something has to be done quickly by the rfl about the standard of officiating.
    The problem may well not lie with the referees but with the differing perspectives of fans/players. You mention forward passes, for example, and many people around where I sit (and including me) wondered why play was stopped on one Saints atttack but watching the game on TV there was a clear forward pass from Smith at the ptb. With regard to the “high tackles” that resulted in the set to, most fans thought that Taia was injured because of foul play but the arm in his face was nothing of substance, most Leeds players thought Peyroux had fouled Newman but the officials correctly allowed play to continue as contact was with the shoulder and then they felt aggrieved because they had been penalised for a high shot on Bentley. Emotions are raised by perceptions but TV replays proved to me that Thaler got most things correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    The way he speaks to players as well, like they're idiots. I understand respect the referee but it works both ways. If the players spoke to him like he does to them then they'd be sent off.
    Whilst agreeing with some of the comments made, particularly about two forward passes which patently were not,how often do you go home and watch the match again and realise that actually the ref got the disputed calls right! Quite a few refs have packed up recently citing the abuse that they receive, both on the ground and online. They are not snowflakes but fellas who also love the game and are trying to put something back into it, the younger ones will only improve the more big games they officiate. You should have been around in the days of Eric Clay who more or less reffed the match from the halfway line There would be no game without them so when you shout get em on side, just watch your own team when they are tackling, a pound to a penny they will have the same defensive line, remember the defence does not have to be behind the referee, it's the linesmen who monitor it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    The problem may well not lie with the referees but with the differing perspectives of fans/players. You mention forward passes, for example, and many people around where I sit (and including me) wondered why play was stopped on one Saints atttack but watching the game on TV there was a clear forward pass from Smith at the ptb. With regard to the “high tackles” that resulted in the set to, most fans thought that Taia was injured because of foul play but the arm in his face was nothing of substance, most Leeds players thought Peyroux had fouled Newman but the officials correctly allowed play to continue as contact was with the shoulder and then they felt aggrieved because they had been penalised for a high shot on Bentley. Emotions are raised by perceptions but TV replays proved to me that Thaler got most things correct.
    I thought Thaler was ok. Id add that the sin binning of Donaldson was a sharp piece of reffing as well. My main issue (and where the OP is correct) is the way Thaler speaks to players. Respect is a two way thing. Dont mind him being terse if a player is gobbing off but less so for some of the other stuff.

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    Just for balance I thought Kendall was excellent for the London v Hull KR game. It does help though when players turn up to play rugby and don't flap around on the floor, move off the mark etc.

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    If every team plays the same way and within the rules then the refs would find it easier to be more consistent. But we've got so many teams who can con the ref, apply the dark arts, coaches play on a refs individual weaknesses. We really need 2 refs, one primary ref and a secondary ref.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    I thought Thaler was ok. Id add that the sin binning of Donaldson was a sharp piece of reffing as well. My main issue (and where the OP is correct) is the way Thaler speaks to players. Respect is a two way thing. Dont mind him being terse if a player is gobbing off but less so for some of the other stuff.
    I’m probably too old school but played rugby union during an era when you knew there was no point in debating any decision as the referee was never going to change his mind. Referees only ever referred to me by my number or position rather than as “mate” or by my first name and generally treated players like miscreant schoolchildren. Despite this, respect for their role was almost always there. On the few occasions that I allowed the red mist to descend because of the referee, I generally took it out on the opposition (a bit like Ferres tried) save for the one time I was sent off for an expletive ridden outburst stating what I thought of him. Personally, I’d rather Thaler, Hicks and co talk down to players and stop the likes of O’Loughlin and Hill not only challenging the decision but continuing to do so after being told to go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    I’m probably too old school but played rugby union during an era when you knew there was no point in debating any decision as the referee was never going to change his mind. Referees only ever referred to me by my number or position rather than as “mate” or by my first name and generally treated players like miscreant schoolchildren. Despite this, respect for their role was almost always there. On the few occasions that I allowed the red mist to descend because of the referee, I generally took it out on the opposition (a bit like Ferres tried) save for the one time I was sent off for an expletive ridden outburst stating what I thought of him. Personally, I’d rather Thaler, Hicks and co talk down to players and stop the likes of O’Loughlin and Hill not only challenging the decision but continuing to do so after being told to go away.
    I remember only the captain being allowed to question the reason for a decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I remember only the captain being allowed to question the reason for a decision.
    That should still be the way,back in the day it was common for a ref to penalise any back chat and we should go back to that. Many people have said the touch judges should do more and they really could help out the ref far more than they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Thought Thaler was embarrassing on Friday, some of the calls he made where blatantly poor or laughable, forward passes being given for perfectly good passes, allowing Leeds to just lie in in the tackle after he had called held and his genuinely shocking game management that ended up with the kick off after the high tackles. Its not just him, all the refs are shockingly poor and they are killing the standard and quality of the game, its making it really tough to watch as the standard is getting driven down by slow play. Something has to be done quickly by the rfl about the standard of officiating.
    I think watching the game back on TV I'm often surprised at the amount they have got right.

    The speed of the game, the speed of plays, the players trying to manipulate the refs, the lopping fish at the play of the ball, players trying to con the crowd in the hope they will abuse the ref to pressure a decision, the constant undermining by coaches, the fan abuse, the online abuse, hatred towards them I'm surprised we have any tbh

    But let's assume this is an individual performance issue and that officiating a game without making an error is an acheieveable and expected goal, how do you propose it is fixed?

    Options are? Sack a ref who makes a mistake? How many mistakes are they allowed? Do we suspend them for an error? How many errors per game ban? Who comes in when we drop a ref? How do we prepare the new ref for a SL game? Are you allowed to make errors in your first games whilst you learn, how many learning games are you allowed?

    How do we support refs? Players have a full support mechanism behind them, refs don't, not to the same scale, what can be done to help their ability development, their emotions when they get abuse or have a bad game? Will abuse and dropping them improve their performance?

    Then consider the amount of refs we have, how do we develop more? What is the carrot, they get appalling abuse at amateur games, why should they Continue? It's deemed acceptable to abuse a person if they wear a ref top, of you carry a flag I cannot hurl abuse at you without fear of retribution. It is accepted that a ref can be abused by both sets of fans, players, parents, coaches etc. It is the opinion of many that they should accept abuse if they are a ref, why? Theynhave emotions like other people, it does affect people and claiming they are snowflakes doesn't justify further abuse.
    I wouldn't like my children to be a ref seeing the attitude of people towards refs.

    Often people abusing refs (often very young children) try to justify it by claiming the same would happen at my work if I made errors, well really? Who has a job wher HR allow public confrontational abuse every time it is perceived you have made an error?

    The ref top is not magic and means they have no emotions, any person should be allowed respect and support at their place of work, players and coaches at professional level should not pressure or try to con the ref. Again, another common myth is that they are professional players and therefore are allowed to gain an advantage for their team, do we really want a game where the best cheats win?

    So if you feel they are ruining the game, a post I've read many times over the past two decades and heard for much longer and the game is still her, how do you propose it is 'fixed'

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    That should still be the way,back in the day it was common for a ref to penalise any back chat and we should go back to that. Many people have said the touch judges should do more and they really could help out the ref far more than they do.

    .fully agree but again people say the players are justified as they are frustrated at poor decisions

    I think refs are also frustrated at poor back chat, the fact is if players are allowed to continually challenge they will, empowerbthe refs and blame players

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    The way he speaks to players as well, like they're idiots. I understand respect the referee but it works both ways. If the players spoke to him like he does to them then they'd be sent off.

    They have to be firm and assertive, but this can be done without being condescending, I do think Thalor gets his tone wrong, but I agree with the intent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    With regard to the “high tackles” that resulted in the set to, most fans thought that Taia was injured because of foul play but the arm in his face was nothing of substance,
    After getting the swinging arm in the face, Taia instinctively puts his free arm up to his face and so, when he falls, all his weight goes on the ball-carrying arm. Didn't help that Newman (?) then lifted him and drove him back into the ground.

    The offside position of the Leeds players, especially toward the end of the first half, was a joke. They weren't just a step in fron of Thaler, they were 3/4 yards and walking forwards before the ball was even played.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    After getting the swinging arm in the face, Taia instinctively puts his free arm up to his face and so, when he falls, all his weight goes on the ball-carrying arm. Didn't help that Newman (?) then lifted him and drove him back into the ground.

    The offside position of the Leeds players, especially toward the end of the first half, was a joke. They weren't just a step in fron of Thaler, they were 3/4 yards and walking forwards before the ball was even played.
    I think you need to rewatch the incident where Taia is injured. He did not put his free arm up to his face, indeed both arms hit the ground at more or less the same time. Similarly, Newman did not lift Taia after he had been grounded but merely tried to turtle him in bringing him down and ended up being on top of Taia as he hit the ground for the first and only time. I assume that it was Newman’s added weight that contributed to the dislocation. The differing views of what happened, both live at the ground and what you believe happened presumably after having watched it on TV, demonstrate the problem of correctly assessing a referee’s input. I should add that at the time I thought Taia had been hit high and that was the cause of his injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I think watching the game back on TV I'm often surprised at the amount they have got right.

    The speed of the game, the speed of plays, the players trying to manipulate the refs, the lopping fish at the play of the ball, players trying to con the crowd in the hope they will abuse the ref to pressure a decision, the constant undermining by coaches, the fan abuse, the online abuse, hatred towards them I'm surprised we have any tbh

    But let's assume this is an individual performance issue and that officiating a game without making an error is an acheieveable and expected goal, how do you propose it is fixed?

    Options are? Sack a ref who makes a mistake? How many mistakes are they allowed? Do we suspend them for an error? How many errors per game ban? Who comes in when we drop a ref? How do we prepare the new ref for a SL game? Are you allowed to make errors in your first games whilst you learn, how many learning games are you allowed?

    How do we support refs? Players have a full support mechanism behind them, refs don't, not to the same scale, what can be done to help their ability development, their emotions when they get abuse or have a bad game? Will abuse and dropping them improve their performance?

    Then consider the amount of refs we have, how do we develop more? What is the carrot, they get appalling abuse at amateur games, why should they Continue? It's deemed acceptable to abuse a person if they wear a ref top, of you carry a flag I cannot hurl abuse at you without fear of retribution. It is accepted that a ref can be abused by both sets of fans, players, parents, coaches etc. It is the opinion of many that they should accept abuse if they are a ref, why? Theynhave emotions like other people, it does affect people and claiming they are snowflakes doesn't justify further abuse.
    I wouldn't like my children to be a ref seeing the attitude of people towards refs.

    Often people abusing refs (often very young children) try to justify it by claiming the same would happen at my work if I made errors, well really? Who has a job wher HR allow public confrontational abuse every time it is perceived you have made an error?

    The ref top is not magic and means they have no emotions, any person should be allowed respect and support at their place of work, players and coaches at professional level should not pressure or try to con the ref. Again, another common myth is that they are professional players and therefore are allowed to gain an advantage for their team, do we really want a game where the best cheats win?

    So if you feel they are ruining the game, a post I've read many times over the past two decades and heard for much longer and the game is still her, how do you propose it is 'fixed'
    I don't agree with much you write but I think this pretty right. Though I know nothing about what support systems there are, or what you would want for Refs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I don't agree with much you write but I think this pretty right. Though I know nothing about what support systems there are, or what you would want for Refs.

    Well I'll accept that as a compliment of sorts. I realise posters will agree and some will disagree, but I always try to justify my comments with reason

    Support for refs wouldn't be to dissimilar than other professions, mentoring, emotional support, training, coaching, life skills, cpd, support forums, are just a few ideas. Obviously it needs thinking through properly and the support needs to be appropriate for their needs.

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    I don't agree with the OP but I do believe Thaler was poor last week.
    I'm not suggesting it was deliberate or as part of a conspiracy, he just didn't have a great game and that contributed to the match as a whole.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    I don't agree with the OP but I do believe Thaler was poor last week.
    I'm not suggesting it was deliberate or as part of a conspiracy, he just didn't have a great game and that contributed to the match as a whole.



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    To be honest mate, Thaler has a poor game every time he officiates Saints.

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    Just put it down to being a Sky game and move on.

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    I was talking to a couple of Leeds fans walking up Peasley Cross after the match and they thought the Ref lent towards saints, but i thought Thaler had a decent game. What does look shoddy is the ruck area, the play the ball, the trying to milk a penalty by pretending they’ve been pushed down as they go to PTB. Amor is the worst for that but all clubs have cheats and it’s embarrassing. I don’t know who is in charge of the official’s now RFL/SL, but whoever it is they want to start telling them to start binning players for the none stop moaning and whinging.

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    The sooner we get 2 refs introduced in super league the better. It’s a tough job for one person and it would cut out this play acting and messing around in the ruck

    A cleaner ruck = a quicker game = a better spectacle.


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    I can't wait for AI refs and every error being penalised. Then wait for the clamour for human refs to come back because its player errors that kill the game, not the odd mistake by refs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pramtown View Post
    I was talking to a couple of Leeds fans walking up Peasley Cross after the match and they thought the Ref lent towards saints, but i thought Thaler had a decent game. What does look shoddy is the ruck area, the play the ball, the trying to milk a penalty by pretending they’ve been pushed down as they go to PTB. Amor is the worst for that but all clubs have cheats and it’s embarrassing. I don’t know who is in charge of the official’s now RFL/SL, but whoever it is they want to start telling them to start binning players for the none stop moaning and whinging.
    I agree about the Amor-type antics at the PTB (Walmsley is guilty sometimes as well....) and i’d Like two refs to ping that type of cheating plus binning repeat offenders
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