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Thread: The league

  1. #101
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    Everybody likes the occasion and the drama of the Grand Final (well ths winners do)

    Two seasons ago we were within 30 seconds of getting there,until the golden point drop goal.
    Theres a fair chance we'd have beaten Leeds in the final and it would have been a fantastic end to a season that had started under KC , then Holbrook and Barba had arrived.
    It would have been like another Saints dramatic comeback story.

    We need to find a way of keeping that sort of drama that can come with a Grand Final victory at the same time increasing the Kudos that goes to the most consistent team that tops the table.

    Whether a different trophy and a title (e,g, League Premiers) would do the trick, I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    For play offs read Grand Final. It is the Grand Final that gets the big crowd, gets the interest and the outside attention. The playoffs before it are relatively poorly attended and create no real buzz or interest for the game.

    It is the league that makes the sport it’s money. It fills 30 weekends of TV for Sky, it sells the season tickets that clubs rely on, sells tickets for Magic Weekend and is the competition that all of the end of the season awards are based on.

    The extra 3 or 4 weeks between the end of the regular season and the GF are of marginal value to Sky and before the move to Top 4 the games were attracting crowds that in some years were frankly embarrassing to the sport in the “business end” of seasons. In the last year of Top 8 only 1 of the 8 pre GF play off games got a crowd over 9,000. The move to Top 4 improved things as fans forked out for a one off Semi Final, but all systems before it regularly produced crowds below regular season levels.

    The Grand Final is the money game for the sport, but even that is watched by only 350k or so on Sky, which is only marginally higher than they pull in for a regular season Saints v Wigan Good Friday game.

    So, we’ll never ditch the Grand Final for various good reasons, but the play-offs that come before it are not the success you make them out to be IMO.
    I was talking about the play off system which includes the grand final, not isolating the games between the league and the grand final

    That has suffered from the middle 8s fiasco which remember menay clubs voted for, many people wanted and was backed, only when preople started to realise it was terrible did they distance themselves from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous Grouse View Post
    We need to find a way of keeping that sort of drama that can come with a Grand Final victory at the same time increasing the Kudos that goes to the most consistent team that tops the table.
    I just don’t think you can have your cake and eat it. Whatever it is that makes you champions is what will carry the prestige, and anything else will be a side show. You either have a system that spreads the intensity over a whole season, or you have a system that packs it all into a single event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Many new posts but nothing new to read, just the same old points

    Nobody has claimed it is fair, nobody has claimed it rewards the most consistent team in the league, everyone knows its a play off at the end of the year.

    They didn't bring it in because of those reasons, so whilst people can continue to make the same points it's doesn't change the reality. I've posted it enough time s now why it is done, you may not like it, I may not like it but the current system is 100% right for the sport currently.

    All the suggestions so far would drag us back to semi pro days with poor attendances and no TV deal
    Upside you have put all the points across well and it is up to those who disagree to prove the positive in their suggestions.
    What I don`t understand is why no TV deal would be forthcoming without a Grand Final.
    I think the majority on here seem peeved that Saints as a club have been the bridesmaids since the playoffs inception. I agree entirely that we know the system and should play to its benefits. Bradford did this with the import of NRL lads for a few games that won them a GF however their story did not last either. I think RL as a whole its fans and players need to do more for our sport. The apathy around new ideas however "air brained" they seem to some is a perfect example (the Challange Cup double headers outcries). We are crying out for forward thinking leadership, not trouble water ship steering, smiling faces, speaking in well worn cliches. The players could raise their profiles I have suggested before Gareth Hock and Katherine Jenkins have had similar downtime recreations, maybe they could share a line or two...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous Grouse View Post
    Everybody likes the occasion and the drama of the Grand Final (well ths winners do)

    Two seasons ago we were within 30 seconds of getting there,until the golden point drop goal.
    Theres a fair chance we'd have beaten Leeds in the final and it would have been a fantastic end to a season that had started under KC , then Holbrook and Barba had arrived.
    It would have been like another Saints dramatic comeback story.

    We need to find a way of keeping that sort of drama that can come with a Grand Final victory at the same time increasing the Kudos that goes to the most consistent team that tops the table.

    Whether a different trophy and a title (e,g, League Premiers) would do the trick, I don't know.
    Interesting that, I was talking to a non RL fan about play offs to decide champions, when I said you get the LLS for finishing top he said “as soon as you call something a shield, it devalues it straight away”. I think he had a really good point to be honest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I was talking about the play off system which includes the grand final, not isolating the games between the league and the grand final

    That has suffered from the middle 8s fiasco which remember menay clubs voted for, many people wanted and was backed, only when preople started to realise it was terrible did they distance themselves from it.
    I know you were, hence me saying that I disagree with your analysis that the play offs are great for the sport and great for attendances. The success that you ascribe to the play offs only really applies to the Grand Final, not the play offs as a whole. Crowds aren’t great for pre GF play off games.

    For example, our Semi with Wire last season was only our 6th highest home attendance of the season for what was easily the most important game. If the play offs were such an unbridled success we’d be selling out for a home Semi final against a big local rival.

    Look at TV ratings for games as well. That Semi Final was only the 8th most watched game on Sky last season, and was the only game (other than the GF) in the entire second half of the season than topped 150k. A play off Semi Final, knock out game, nobody else playing that night, and it pulled in over 50k less than our home league games with Cas and Leeds (with other games on at the same time) and our Good Friday game with Wigan when nearly everyone was playing that afternoon.

    Indeed, most of the best rated games Super League gets on Sky are in the first third of the season up until just after Easter, when fans are full of excitement about the season. Once the season settles down and everyone comes to terms with the fact that games mean a lot less than they should they tune out. And they don’t tune back in when the business end kicks in, as evidenced by play off Semi Finals pulling in less viewers than a March Fri night Saints v Leeds game.

    So, as I say, I’m not knocking the Grand Final at all. We are far from the only sport that decides a title with a one off showpiece game. But the play offs are not a success. They don’t attract TV ratings, they don’t attract great crowds and they don’t attract any outside attention. And the fact that they exist pulls down interest levels in the second half of the season in terms of TV ratings and crowds as well. Those are the numbers, not my opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I know you were, hence me saying that I disagree with your analysis that the play offs are great for the sport and great for attendances. The success that you ascribe to the play offs only really applies to the Grand Final, not the play offs as a whole. Crowds aren’t great for pre GF play off games.

    For example, our Semi with Wire last season was only our 6th highest home attendance of the season for what was easily the most important game. If the play offs were such an unbridled success we’d be selling out for a home Semi final against a big local rival.

    Look at TV ratings for games as well. That Semi Final was only the 8th most watched game on Sky last season, and was the only game (other than the GF) in the entire second half of the season than topped 150k. A play off Semi Final, knock out game, nobody else playing that night, and it pulled in over 50k less than our home league games with Cas and Leeds (with other games on at the same time) and our Good Friday game with Wigan when nearly everyone was playing that afternoon.

    Indeed, most of the best rated games Super League gets on Sky are in the first third of the season up until just after Easter, when fans are full of excitement about the season. Once the season settles down and everyone comes to terms with the fact that games mean a lot less than they should they tune out. And they don’t tune back in when the business end kicks in, as evidenced by play off Semi Finals pulling in less viewers than a March Fri night Saints v Leeds game.

    So, as I say, I’m not knocking the Grand Final at all. We are far from the only sport that decides a title with a one off showpiece game. But the play offs are not a success. They don’t attract TV ratings, they don’t attract great crowds and they don’t attract any outside attention. And the fact that they exist pulls down interest levels in the second half of the season in terms of TV ratings and crowds as well. Those are the numbers, not my opinions.

    We need to acknowledge that you are referring to the middle 8s years not necessarily the impact of the league and play offs alone. That's why we amended the middle 8s structure

    Do you have comparative stats to compare with pre play offs?

    The NRL uses a play off system and that's successful

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    In a sport as financially poor as league i think the play offs are important because they keep folk interested for longer. Everyone is in with a chance until the very end. Lets be honest, if it was first past the post most people would have given up on this season even this early because it’s obvious we will finish top. Rugby league needs the play offs. Its just a question of which play off system works best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    For play offs read Grand Final. It is the Grand Final that gets the big crowd, gets the interest and the outside attention. The playoffs before it are relatively poorly attended and create no real buzz or interest for the game.

    It is the league that makes the sport it’s money. It fills 30 weekends of TV for Sky, it sells the season tickets that clubs rely on, sells tickets for Magic Weekend and is the competition that all of the end of the season awards are based on.

    The extra 3 or 4 weeks between the end of the regular season and the GF are of marginal value to Sky and before the move to Top 4 the games were attracting crowds that in some years were frankly embarrassing to the sport in the “business end” of seasons. In the last year of Top 8 only 1 of the 8 pre GF play off games got a crowd over 9,000. The move to Top 4 improved things as fans forked out for a one off Semi Final, but all systems before it regularly produced crowds below regular season levels.

    The Grand Final is the money game for the sport, but even that is watched by only 350k or so on Sky, which is only marginally higher than they pull in for a regular season Saints v Wigan Good Friday game.

    So, we’ll never ditch the Grand Final for various good reasons, but the play-offs that come before it are not the success you make them out to be IMO.
    This seems a decent analysis of recent happenings, rather than some of the dogmatic posts over what is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Interesting that, I was talking to a non RL fan about play offs to decide champions, when I said you get the LLS for finishing top he said “as soon as you call something a shield, it devalues it straight away”. I think he had a really good point to be honest
    I have always thought the same, the naming conventions are most of the problems, rather than the formats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    We need to acknowledge that you are referring to the middle 8s years not necessarily the impact of the league and play offs alone. That's why we amended the middle 8s structure
    I clearly stated in a previous post that only 1 of the 8 play off games in 2014 (the last year before the Middle 8s were introduced) got a crowd over 9,000. This was back in the Top 8 era, and crowds were poor and ratings average compared to normal regular season rounds.

    In the years prior to the Middle 8s we had the Top 8 system following a normal home and away season (plus MW). Look at the crowd figures in the 3 years before the Middle 8s.

    2014 - League average crowd 8365, non-GF play off average crowd 8424.
    2013 - League average crowd 9048, non-GF play off average crowd 9246.
    2012 - League average crowd 10151, non-GF play off average crowd 9366.

    19 of the 24 play off games in those three seasons were played at Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Wire or Hull (the 5 biggest clubs in the league), yet the crowds for those games were averaging around the same as the league average over the regular season (including games played at London, Salford, Widnes, Wakefield etc) when they should have been averaging well above for the most important games of the year in the play-offs. It didn't happen, and it's never happened.

    It was your assertion that the play-offs are great because they get the crowds that really got my attention back on Page 1, because for years the game has wondered how it can attract bigger play-off crowds because they were below regular season levels. It has been very evident year after year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I clearly stated in a previous post that only 1 of the 8 play off games in 2014 (the last year before the Middle 8s were introduced) got a crowd over 9,000. This was back in the Top 8 era, and crowds were poor and ratings average compared to normal regular season rounds.

    In the years prior to the Middle 8s we had the Top 8 system following a normal home and away season (plus MW). Look at the crowd figures in the 3 years before the Middle 8s.

    2014 - League average crowd 8365, non-GF play off average crowd 8424.
    2013 - League average crowd 9048, non-GF play off average crowd 9246.
    2012 - League average crowd 10151, non-GF play off average crowd 9366.

    19 of the 24 play off games in those three seasons were played at Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Wire or Hull (the 5 biggest clubs in the league), yet the crowds for those games were averaging around the same as the league average over the regular season (including games played at London, Salford, Widnes, Wakefield etc) when they should have been averaging well above for the most important games of the year in the play-offs. It didn't happen, and it's never happened.

    It was your assertion that the play-offs are great because they get the crowds that really got my attention back on Page 1, because for years the game has wondered how it can attract bigger play-off crowds because they were below regular season levels. It has been very evident year after year.
    I don't believe I said play offs are great due to the crowds, my points were wider reaching than that.

    You're stats show very similar attendance figures for regular games and play offs

    All my other points remain and have been made numerous times so no point repeating

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Interesting that, I was talking to a non RL fan about play offs to decide champions, when I said you get the LLS for finishing top he said “as soon as you call something a shield, it devalues it straight away”. I think he had a really good point to be honest

    Well it's of less value than the SL but not to the extent that teams shouldn't celebrate it, if they refuse to celebrate then they devalue it further.

    Fans and teams should celebrate it, complaining over its shape is no excuse and makes them look petulant

    It's always someone else's fault

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I don't believe I said play offs are great due to the crowds, my points were wider reaching than that.

    You're stats show very similar attendance figures for regular games and play offs

    All my other points remain and have been made numerous times so no point repeating
    You said "the plays offs to win SL are the best thing to happen to RL, look at the crowds, the interest it creates and keeps team in with a chance, why would we go backwards?" I have proven with numbers that the play offs do not attract bigger crowds or greater interest. Only the Grand Final as a standalone showpiece game does that.

    You state above that the average play-off crowds are more or less the same as the average league crowds. Correct. But average crowds for play off games should be alot higher than a league average because play off games are the most important games and are hosted in the main by the 5 best supported clubs in the league. Not sure why you can't figure that out.

    If we worked out the average league crowd for the Big 5 then compared it with the play-off average we'd get a better idea of the relative drop off in crowds in the play-offs.

    2012 - Big 5 league average - 13679 (play off average 9366)
    2013 - Big 5 league average - 12659 (play off average 9246)
    2014 - Big 5 league average - 12464 (play off average 8424)

    But, I'll leave it at that. I've only really responded to your points with facts not opinions, but no point flogging a dead horse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    You said "the plays offs to win SL are the best thing to happen to RL, look at the crowds, the interest it creates and keeps team in with a chance, why would we go backwards?" I have proven with numbers that the play offs do not attract bigger crowds or greater interest. Only the Grand Final as a standalone showpiece game does that.

    You state above that the average play-off crowds are more or less the same as the average league crowds. Correct. But average crowds for play off games should be alot higher than a league average because play off games are the most important games and are hosted in the main by the 5 best supported clubs in the league. Not sure why you can't figure that out.

    If we worked out the average league crowd for the Big 5 then compared it with the play-off average we'd get a better idea of the relative drop off in crowds in the play-offs.

    2012 - Big 5 league average - 13679 (play off average 9366)
    2013 - Big 5 league average - 12659 (play off average 9246)
    2014 - Big 5 league average - 12464 (play off average 8424)

    But, I'll leave it at that. I've only really responded to your points with facts not opinions, but no point flogging a dead horse.
    And I pointed out many posts ago that I refer to the play offs as a catch all including the grand final, you cannot remove the most important part of my comments (the GF) and isolate other parts to attempt to prove a point.
    That's like me isolating the GF to prove my point, which would make more sense btw as that the pinacle as the reason for the play offs!

    Also, you again pull out and refer to just one part of my comments, the crowds, as stated many many times my point was much wider ranging than that, continually isolating the parts that support your argument is disingenuous and misleading

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    Just a few points:

    The State of Origin trophy is a shield and I’ve never heard anyone suggest that competition doesn’t matter because of the nature of the trophy.

    We (supporters and clubs) are at fault for demeaning the LLS. Winning the league is an achievement and it should be celebrated more. It was wrong of anyone to laugh at Castleford fans for celebrating when they won it.

    Sky refers to the Grand Final winners as “the champions” during games in the following season. Where the same team doesn’t win both trophies (the ideal outcome), it would perhaps increase the perceived value of the LLS if they were also to refer to “the league winners”.

    I have no interest in getting rid of the playoffs and Grand Final. However, winning the LLS should be seen as an achievement and celebrated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Just a few points:

    The State of Origin trophy is a shield and I’ve never heard anyone suggest that competition doesn’t matter because of the nature of the trophy.

    We (supporters and clubs) are at fault for demeaning the LLS. Winning the league is an achievement and it should be celebrated more. It was wrong of anyone to laugh at Castleford fans for celebrating when they won it.

    Sky refers to the Grand Final winners as “the champions” during games in the following season. Where the same team doesn’t win both trophies (the ideal outcome), it would perhaps increase the perceived value of the LLS if they were also to refer to “the league winners”.

    I have no interest in getting rid of the playoffs and Grand Final. However, winning the LLS should be seen as an achievement and celebrated.
    I take your points, however regarding the term ‘shield’ I think in this country and in our sport it suggests a lesser achievement. Community Shield in football for example. I think there have been past examples in our sport too, but I could be wrong. Regarding your other points I think it should be celebrated more than we did but perhaps less than Cas (though theirs was a unique case I think and they deserved to). I don’t think fans and players can make a ‘choice’ to celebrate it more, it just comes instinctively. When topping the league gave you the champions tag, the ultimate achievement, overnight that was removed to mean barely anything, that’s what did the damage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Just a few points:

    The State of Origin trophy is a shield and I’ve never heard anyone suggest that competition doesn’t matter because of the nature of the trophy.

    We (supporters and clubs) are at fault for demeaning the LLS. Winning the league is an achievement and it should be celebrated more. It was wrong of anyone to laugh at Castleford fans for celebrating when they won it.

    Sky refers to the Grand Final winners as “the champions” during games in the following season. Where the same team doesn’t win both trophies (the ideal outcome), it would perhaps increase the perceived value of the LLS if they were also to refer to “the league winners”.

    I have no interest in getting rid of the playoffs and Grand Final. However, winning the LLS should be seen as an achievement and celebrated.
    Brilliant post and I fully agree

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    I'm sorry. Finishing top in a play off format means nothing to me. Never has, never will. Didn't do us any favours last year when wire turned us over.

    Why would I celebrate winning nothing? I honestly don't understand why it's seen as important. The players are right in downplaying it in my opinion.

    If it meant you were champions, then fair enough. But you're not. I would do away with the LLS altogether as long as the play off format remains

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I'm sorry. Finishing top in a play off format means nothing to me. Never has, never will. Didn't do us any favours last year when wire turned us over.

    Why would I celebrate winning nothing? I honestly don't understand why it's seen as important. The players are right in downplaying it in my opinion.

    If it meant you were champions, then fair enough. But you're not. I would do away with the LLS altogether as long as the play off format remains

    So you refuse to celebrate the league and wining the grand final means nothing to you, your glass is half empty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I'm sorry. Finishing top in a play off format means nothing to me. Never has, never will. Didn't do us any favours last year when wire turned us over.

    Why would I celebrate winning nothing? I honestly don't understand why it's seen as important. The players are right in downplaying it in my opinion.

    If it meant you were champions, then fair enough. But you're not. I would do away with the LLS altogether as long as the play off format remains
    All depends on the quality of super league for me, when Leeds won it from 5th it didn't deserve the best valuation as Leeds were pretty poor for most of the season and wasn't reflective of a champion side. Just because they won the last 3 games in the play off distorted that champions tag, we all understood that the format was agreed and accepted but the 28 or 29 or 30 games were basically serious friendly games for the play off seeding.

    Also I've often said that eventually a team will win it from 5th place from a top 5 play off or from 8th place from a top 8 play off and that champion team could be far closer to a relegation spot than a top of the league spot, when that happens the sport will be seen as a farce and a devalued competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    So you refuse to celebrate the league and wining the grand final means nothing to you, your glass is half empty
    But not every team is trying to finish top, or give their all for every game, so it devalues the achievement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    But not every team is trying to finish top, or give their all for every game, so it devalues the achievement.
    This is an important point, and one that always seems to get missed. If you finish top in a play off system there is no guarantee that you'd finish top if it were FPTP. If that Leeds team that won Grand Finals from 5th needed to finish higher they probably would have, but they played the system, much like others have done. Look what they did when their older players all decided to have a dream season in 2015 before they retired. They finished top and won the lot, in the one year that finishing top seemed to matter to them.

    There is simply no way of proving that final positions in a league table are anything other than a guide when the title is decided in a play-off system.

    Would we have rested players against London the other week if it were FPTP for example?

    Would City and Liverpool have ended up on 98 and 97 points if the PL was a play off system? Of course not.
    Last edited by Gray77; 21st June 2019 at 11:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    And I pointed out many posts ago that I refer to the play offs as a catch all including the grand final, you cannot remove the most important part of my comments (the GF) and isolate other parts to attempt to prove a point.
    That's like me isolating the GF to prove my point, which would make more sense btw as that the pinacle as the reason for the play offs
    But I've already agreed with you that the Grand Final is a success as a one off showpiece event for the sport, so there's no need for us to argue about that. But it's not the pinnacle of a successful play off system because the play off system that precedes it is not particularly successful. The Grand Final is a success as a concept in its own right, not because it comes at the end of a play off system.

    I'd happily have 1 and 2 in the league meet in the Grand Final, do away with the poorly attended play off games in between and just go straight to the showpiece event at the end of the league season. We keep the bit that is successful and gets us attention and get rid of the bits that aren't and don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    But I've already agreed with you that the Grand Final is a success as a one off showpiece event for the sport, so there's no need for us to argue about that. But it's not the pinnacle of a successful play off system because the play off system that precedes it is not particularly successful. The Grand Final is a success as a concept in its own right, not because it comes at the end of a play off system.

    I'd happily have 1 and 2 in the league meet in the Grand Final, do away with the poorly attended play off games in between and just go straight to the showpiece event at the end of the league season. We keep the bit that is successful and gets us attention and get rid of the bits that aren't and don't.
    I'm with you on what you say. The stats back up your points.

    Do you think that people just decide to save for Old Trafford once a team is in the play offs?

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