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Thread: The league

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    You can’t really compare two different formats from different times, there are so many other factors involved in attendances. Crowds have ebbed and flowed over the decades and under different formats, I’m not sure there is any correlation. I certainly don’t see crowds flocking into the likes of Salford, Wigan Wakefield, Huddersfield etc as they’ve got the hope of finishing 5th as opposed to their season being over under another format
    But that's just a guess, in a straight league they have little to play for, there could be even less interest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    At some stage yes, but to add a new competition when everyone is calling for stability is nonesnesical
    I meant if the league went to first past the post.
    Regal Trophy was a good competition back in the day. Football has 2 domestic cup competitions.

    It's all ifs and buts but I really don't think it's that daft of an idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    But that's just a guess, in a straight league they have little to play for, there could be even less interest
    Fans still turned up when it was first past the post. They knew they had little or no chance, but that’s not the sole reason why they put their money down each year. 4 teams have won the Super League, ever. So it doesn’t give that much hope. It’s like Mo Farah letting 10 lads out the boozer run with him for 27 laps before the bell rings and he strides off into the distance. You’ve given them a chance that isn’t much of a chance in reality and the whole race has been dull as a result

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I meant if the league went to first past the post.
    Regal Trophy was a good competition back in the day. Football has 2 domestic cup competitions.

    It's all ifs and buts but I really don't think it's that daft of an idea.
    I’m with you here Ralph. Although a GF at Old Trafford is exciting it’s also actually pretty meaningless. Try explaining how our current system works to an unbeliever! It’s not easy, or logical. I’m not really a big fan of football but the season just gone kept me tuned in to see whether either of the top two would slip up. Having the final of the Challenge Cup as the final match of the season could preserve the excitement of the current GF but it would make more sense because it’s a stand alone knock out comp. I think it would bring it back as a major showcase final too.

    I agree with the folk who say that we’ve chopped and changed but that was because we didn’t have enough teams to make a viable league. I doubt that Leigh or Bradford would regularly beat us, Wigan, Warrington or Cas but they would compete with each other and with Hull KR and London. Meanwhile,Salford, Wakefield and the like could pull of a few shocks.

    I think it’s the way to go but that doesn’t mean i think it will happen any time soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Fans still turned up when it was first past the post. They knew they had little or no chance, but that’s not the sole reason why they put their money down each year. 4 teams have won the Super League, ever. So it doesn’t give that much hope. It’s like Mo Farah letting 10 lads out the boozer run with him for 27 laps before the bell rings and he strides off into the distance. You’ve given them a chance that isn’t much of a chance in reality and the whole race has been dull as a result
    I agree. FPTP would mean teams with squad depth would do best so it would encourage the need for a reserve league and strong home grown talent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    The league generates the income? So Sky and SL have created a format that generates less money?

    Crowds are up on pre super league so your arguments fall down massively, I feel your going to make suggestions for change I'd really like to see eveidence to support your claims
    At no point did I call for a new system. Read and try again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous Grouse View Post
    There's been some low quality games this season but the because we have a play off system it doesn't reward the most consistent team.
    Hull and Wigan for example have been very poor for most of the season but if they get their act together with 10 or so games to go they could end up as champions.
    I despise this league playoff setup. I get it 100% but this, like many other sports are in this format are set up to not reward the most consistent team. You can win in the semi final and then the team that you beat can win the championship if they beat you in the final. Madness
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ_1878 View Post
    I despise this league playoff setup. I get it 100% but this, like many other sports are in this format are set up to not reward the most consistent team. You can win in the semi final and then the team that you beat can win the championship if they beat you in the final. Madness
    Whats annoying is that the 5th place team who might have been poor for most of the season and be only 4 to 6 points off relegation given the chance to become Superleague Champions against a 1st place team who has been high performing and might be 14-16 pts winning points better. Madness indeed, but we have to live with it.

  9. #84
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    Many new posts but nothing new to read, just the same old points

    Nobody has claimed it is fair, nobody has claimed it rewards the most consistent team in the league, everyone knows its a play off at the end of the year.

    They didn't bring it in because of those reasons, so whilst people can continue to make the same points it's doesn't change the reality. I've posted it enough time s now why it is done, you may not like it, I may not like it but the current system is 100% right for the sport currently.

    All the suggestions so far would drag us back to semi pro days with poor attendances and no TV deal
    Last edited by Upside; 18th June 2019 at 19:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Whats annoying is that the 5th place team who might have been poor for most of the season and be only 4 to 6 points off relegation given the chance to become Superleague Champions against a 1st place team who has been high performing and might be 14-16 pts winning points better. Madness indeed, but we have to live with it.
    I do think it works better with 14 teams

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I agree. FPTP would mean teams with squad depth would do best so it would encourage the need for a reserve league and strong home grown talent

    Teams with squad depth also benefit in the current system

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I meant if the league went to first past the post.
    Regal Trophy was a good competition back in the day. Football has 2 domestic cup competitions.

    It's all ifs and buts but I really don't think it's that daft of an idea.

    To many competitions devalues them, they originally wanted one conpetion SL only but we couldn't lose the cc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Teams with squad depth also benefit in the current system
    I think you are right Upside but FPTP means they will benefit even more because every match really does count. At the moment teams that finish 4th and 5th will have had a very mediocre season but if they string together a handful of good games they could be champions. Likewise, teams finishing 1st and 2nd will have had strong seasons but a short dip in form or end of season or run of injuries and they lose. Saints could end game 29 six points clear of second place and ten points clear of third place but still lose the thing.

    I can see the argument that the GF is the final cherry on the cake of the league, but there are other possibilities. The Chellenge Cup has slowly lost its glow. It used to be a major highlight and if the comp was staged properly it could be again. If a super league team had to win 5 games to win the cup in the last match of the season it would be brilliant in my view.

    All that said I don’t see it happening, and maybe we need to leave it alone for two or three years. I hope I’m wrong about that to be honest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I think you are right Upside but FPTP means they will benefit even more because every match really does count. At the moment teams that finish 4th and 5th will have had a very mediocre season but if they string together a handful of good games they could be champions. Likewise, teams finishing 1st and 2nd will have had strong seasons but a short dip in form or end of season or run of injuries and they lose. Saints could end game 29 six points clear of second place and ten points clear of third place but still lose the thing.

    I can see the argument that the GF is the final cherry on the cake of the league, but there are other possibilities. The Chellenge Cup has slowly lost its glow. It used to be a major highlight and if the comp was staged properly it could be again. If a super league team had to win 5 games to win the cup in the last match of the season it would be brilliant in my view.

    All that said I don’t see it happening, and maybe we need to leave it alone for two or three years. I hope I’m wrong about that to be honest
    It may work, but there are current issues with super league RFL and different TV rights. To pull all that together and make a change would be difficult if not impossible and be a huge leap of faith as if it fails we have nowhere to go following another huge change

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    It may work, but there are current issues with super league RFL and different TV rights. To pull all that together and make a change would be difficult if not impossible and be a huge leap of faith as if it fails we have nowhere to go following another huge change
    Yes fair point. The brand is the elite league though. I’m not sure the lower league would get any TV rights unless the top tier is strong. A strong knock out comp in which the lower league teams get TV is vital too. The BBC televised all the CC rounds I think. We need Sky but Sky have a lot of air time to fill so maybe they need us too. In any case how well we market ourselves is key to our future whatever the structure.

    I can’t say that I understand the row between SL and RFL. I haven’t kept up with it. I’m in danger of being too narrow minded because I don’t care whether the second tier is televised. Sky seem to showing all Toronto’s games but I bet that’s just because they are Canadian. Personally I would rather see all Leigh or Bradford’s games on tele but that’s never going to happen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    To many competitions devalues them, they originally wanted one conpetion SL only but we couldn't lose the cc
    Well I'm glad they didn't otherwise we would have a fair fewer trophies.

    You could argue that the play off system devalues the league fixtures. I quite like the top 5 format but it's just a mini tournament at end of the day. You are rewarded for consistency much better in the top 5 format though.

    Having another cup competition I actually think may add value. Another trophy to play for. If you had a 16 team league & 2 competitions, with first past the post in the league and 2 up 2 down, I don't think that's too ridiculous I'll be honest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Well I'm glad they didn't otherwise we would have a fair fewer trophies.

    You could argue that the play off system devalues the league fixtures. I quite like the top 5 format but it's just a mini tournament at end of the day. You are rewarded for consistency much better in the top 5 format though.

    Having another cup competition I actually think may add value. Another trophy to play for. If you had a 16 team league & 2 competitions, with first past the post in the league and 2 up 2 down, I don't think that's too ridiculous I'll be honest
    I’ve said before I think we should play the CC in pools then a knockout, Chuck it in with the season ticket, lose the SL loop fixtures, keep teams hopes up in another comp rather than molly coddle them with a play off series in SL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Yes fair point. The brand is the elite league though. I’m not sure the lower league would get any TV rights unless the top tier is strong. A strong knock out comp in which the lower league teams get TV is vital too. The BBC televised all the CC rounds I think. We need Sky but Sky have a lot of air time to fill so maybe they need us too. In any case how well we market ourselves is key to our future whatever the structure.

    I can’t say that I understand the row between SL and RFL. I haven’t kept up with it. I’m in danger of being too narrow minded because I don’t care whether the second tier is televised. Sky seem to showing all Toronto’s games but I bet that’s just because they are Canadian. Personally I would rather see all Leigh or Bradford’s games on tele but that’s never going to happen!
    Catalan and Toronto have their own tv deals and share rights with Sky, not sure of the details though and how it actually works

    I'd like to see tier one and two televised, even a SL one and two has been muted, maybe if we grow the amount of teams? For me these are great ideas for the future but not the immediate game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Well I'm glad they didn't otherwise we would have a fair fewer trophies.

    You could argue that the play off system devalues the league fixtures. I quite like the top 5 format but it's just a mini tournament at end of the day. You are rewarded for consistency much better in the top 5 format though.

    Having another cup competition I actually think may add value. Another trophy to play for. If you had a 16 team league & 2 competitions, with first past the post in the league and 2 up 2 down, I don't think that's too ridiculous I'll be honest
    Fair enough, I just don't think we will agree on this, I don't feel the current situation would allow forbthese suggestions, maybe in years to come if we strengthen but for now we need to be efficient and have a period of settled structures. Longer term we should review

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    I’ve said before I think we should play the CC in pools then a knockout, Chuck it in with the season ticket, lose the SL loop fixtures, keep teams hopes up in another comp rather than molly coddle them with a play off series in SL
    I think pools may actually work for the CC, it's a good idea instead of loop fixtures, groups of 4 with championship teams, gives them exposure each year

    Still have the Sky BBC issue and rfl SL issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    I’ve said before I think we should play the CC in pools then a knockout, Chuck it in with the season ticket, lose the SL loop fixtures, keep teams hopes up in another comp rather than molly coddle them with a play off series in SL
    Now that is an idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Fair enough, I just don't think we will agree on this, I don't feel the current situation would allow forbthese suggestions, maybe in years to come if we strengthen but for now we need to be efficient and have a period of settled structures. Longer term we should review
    One day we will agree.

    To disagree ha ha ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    One day we will agree.

    To disagree ha ha ha

    Maybe one day, but if that happens the forum wouldn't be an interesting place to visit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    the plays offs to win SL are the best thing to happen to RL, look at the crowds, the interest it creates and keeps team in with a chance, why would we go backwards?
    For play offs read Grand Final. It is the Grand Final that gets the big crowd, gets the interest and the outside attention. The playoffs before it are relatively poorly attended and create no real buzz or interest for the game.

    It is the league that makes the sport it’s money. It fills 30 weekends of TV for Sky, it sells the season tickets that clubs rely on, sells tickets for Magic Weekend and is the competition that all of the end of the season awards are based on.

    The extra 3 or 4 weeks between the end of the regular season and the GF are of marginal value to Sky and before the move to Top 4 the games were attracting crowds that in some years were frankly embarrassing to the sport in the “business end” of seasons. In the last year of Top 8 only 1 of the 8 pre GF play off games got a crowd over 9,000. The move to Top 4 improved things as fans forked out for a one off Semi Final, but all systems before it regularly produced crowds below regular season levels.

    The Grand Final is the money game for the sport, but even that is watched by only 350k or so on Sky, which is only marginally higher than they pull in for a regular season Saints v Wigan Good Friday game.

    So, we’ll never ditch the Grand Final for various good reasons, but the play-offs that come before it are not the success you make them out to be IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    For play offs read Grand Final. It is the Grand Final that gets the big crowd, gets the interest and the outside attention. The playoffs before it are relatively poorly attended and create no real buzz or interest for the game.

    It is the league that makes the sport it’s money. It fills 30 weekends of TV for Sky, it sells the season tickets that clubs rely on, sells tickets for Magic Weekend and is the competition that all of the end of the season awards are based on.

    The extra 3 or 4 weeks between the end of the regular season and the GF are of marginal value to Sky and before the move to Top 4 the games were attracting crowds that in some years were frankly embarrassing to the sport in the “business end” of seasons. In the last year of Top 8 only 1 of the 8 pre GF play off games got a crowd over 9,000. The move to Top 4 improved things as fans forked out for a one off Semi Final, but all systems before it regularly produced crowds below regular season levels.

    The Grand Final is the money game for the sport, but even that is watched by only 350k or so on Sky, which is only marginally higher than they pull in for a regular season Saints v Wigan Good Friday game.

    So, we’ll never ditch the Grand Final for various good reasons, but the play-offs that come before it are not the success you make them out to be IMO.
    Very interesting post Grey. It adds to the argument for me of having a 16 team top tier. 14 home games 16 away games including magic weekend. Retain the GF by having a top two playoff for the title. Two up two down to retain interest in the bottom half of the league. A meaningful knock out competition with the 16 top tier teams entering it along with 16 other teams that competed in earlier rounds

    It may be starting to be obvious that I’m not a fan of the playoff system! If we must have a GF this seems to be the fairest method to me. If I was Sky I would go for that. Sadly I’m not Sky, I’m not even tangentially related to any media mogul

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