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Thread: Dream Team

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    Default Dream Team

    Stumbled on an article last night which showed the current Dream Team after round 5. I didn't realise that this year it was being based on the MoS voting for each position ie the player with the highest number of votes.

    I'm all for the revamped MoS process, particularly after the shambles last year, but must say I'm not a fan of the dream team process.

    For example - Jonny Lomax has had IMO a very good start to the season, scoring 3 tries, with 4 assists. Looking at the Redvee MoM polls, he has consistently been in the top 3/4 performers for us. However, due to a certain James Roby being a freak of nature and picking up top points in 3 of his 4 games (and 2 in the other), as well as other members of the team having individually great games (eg Walmsley/ Thompson against Leeds) he has 0 MoS points.

    Compare that to George Williams, who most would agree has had a fairly poor start to the season (along with the rest of the Wigan team), but picked up the MoM in an awful game against Leeds. In the current standings, GW is ahead of JL in the running, along with Jake Trueman, Robert Lui, Blake Austin, Danny McGuire and Jacob Miller. Some of these have also had great starts to the season (I'm a big fan of Trueman), but I can't believe that there have been 6 better stand off's in the league this season.

    JL is just an example but I'm sure you could find plenty more. Saints only have one player in the DT so far despite winning all 5, compared to Hull FC who have 4 players in! Seems that some of our players are paying the price for Roby being so good.

    Surely it would be a better idea to have some form of a Team of the Round which then gets added up at the end of the season?

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    I dont think you can say that he is on 0 points simply because of Roby and others playing well. MOS and team of the year should ultimately be about decisive contributions to matches and when he makes these Im sure hell pick up points. Were only a few rounds in and I suspect the rankings will take a while to take shape yet in any case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I don’t think you can say that he is on 0 points simply because of Roby and others playing well. MOS and team of the year should ultimately be about decisive contributions to matches and when he makes these I’m sure he’ll pick up points. We’re only a few rounds in and I suspect the rankings will take a while to take shape yet in any case.
    I think the Dream Team should be based on form over the season. Fo me Lomax has been far better than Williams, so I think the methodology is flawed.

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    I agree it's flawed but I never take much notice of the dream team selections anyway, doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
    And I'm sure JL won't mind if he doesn't accumulate many MOS points when he's picked ahead of Williams, Trueman, McGuire etc for GB come the end of the year if he keeps playing like he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    I agree it's flawed but I never take much notice of the dream team selections anyway, doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
    And I'm sure JL won't mind if he doesn't accumulate many MOS points when he's picked ahead of Williams, Trueman, McGuire etc for GB come the end of the year if he keeps playing like he is.
    I'm sure you're right that he would prefer GB to the Dream Team. But, the Dream team is something you can say, "been there, done that"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    I agree it's flawed but I never take much notice of the dream team selections anyway, doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
    And I'm sure JL won't mind if he doesn't accumulate many MOS points when he's picked ahead of Williams, Trueman, McGuire etc for GB come the end of the year if he keeps playing like he is.
    Take your GB point but disagree on the Dream Team. If I was a player, knowing I was the best in my position for the year would be a great honour.

    Take for example Luke Thompson last year, from being a bit part player a year or two ago, to really stepping up last year after AW got injured, getting in the dream team must have felt amazing.

    I was at a dinner only a few weeks ago where Leon Pryce was speaking, and he made a comment on how he felt he deserved to be in the 06 dream team which McGuire got in, and that was the only thing missing for him from that year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think the Dream Team should be based on form over the season. Fo me Lomax has been far better than Williams, so I think the methodology is flawed.
    No methodology is going to be perfect but I think the player who has been the outstanding player on the field in his position most times over the course of the season is likely to be pretty deserving of the reward. And, as you say, it's over a season: a sample size of 5 games is going to give you skewed results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Nel View Post
    Stumbled on an article last night which showed the current Dream Team after round 5. I didn't realise that this year it was being based on the MoS voting for each position ie the player with the highest number of votes.

    I'm all for the revamped MoS process, particularly after the shambles last year, but must say I'm not a fan of the dream team process.

    For example - Jonny Lomax has had IMO a very good start to the season, scoring 3 tries, with 4 assists. Looking at the Redvee MoM polls, he has consistently been in the top 3/4 performers for us. However, due to a certain James Roby being a freak of nature and picking up top points in 3 of his 4 games (and 2 in the other), as well as other members of the team having individually great games (eg Walmsley/ Thompson against Leeds) he has 0 MoS points.

    Compare that to George Williams, who most would agree has had a fairly poor start to the season (along with the rest of the Wigan team), but picked up the MoM in an awful game against Leeds. In the current standings, GW is ahead of JL in the running, along with Jake Trueman, Robert Lui, Blake Austin, Danny McGuire and Jacob Miller. Some of these have also had great starts to the season (I'm a big fan of Trueman), but I can't believe that there have been 6 better stand off's in the league this season.

    JL is just an example but I'm sure you could find plenty more. Saints only have one player in the DT so far despite winning all 5, compared to Hull FC who have 4 players in! Seems that some of our players are paying the price for Roby being so good.

    Surely it would be a better idea to have some form of a Team of the Round which then gets added up at the end of the season?
    Excellent post highlighting flaws in this ranking system.
    Presently this could potentially put a player in the dream team for his only appearance of the season, if every team has the same four or five players scoring points and suddenly one say winger has a good debut and scores a MOS point, if no other winger from another team has scored points all season. You could also have a scenario were no one scored a point in a certain position in any team all season due to the brilliance of the said four or five, would this position in the dream team be left blank?
    Last edited by Tallaght Tiger; 13th March 2019 at 18:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Excellent post highlighting flaws in this ranking system.
    Presently this could potentially put a player in the dream team for his only appearance of the season, if every team has the same four or five players scoring points and suddenly one say winger has a good debut and scores a MOS point, if no other winger from another team has scored points all season. You could also have a scenario were no one scored a point in a certain position in any team all season due to the brilliance of the said four or five, would this position in the dream team be left blank?
    My point exactly. I think the Dream Team should be something very prestigious, but the current method is another example of the game coming across as amateur in many ways off the pitch IMO.

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    If it comes down to the last game Williams will win it by a nose.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    So if I read it right, a theoretical scenario to amplify the flaw in the ranking system is if in every game every week a hooker, a prop forward and a second row forward make up the 3-2-1 pts then there will be no full backs, wingers, centres and half backs in the dream team.

    It also looks as though the points are awarded for the winning/home side only, so if Roby is World Class and performs better than any of the two teams in all the lost/away games he will get ZERO points for his efforts, the other example is that Tom Johnstone could score 50 tries this season double the amount of any other player but has been only on the winning side for 15 of the 29 games and hence will not qualify for MOS/Dream Team points.
    Last edited by STIDDY; 14th March 2019 at 09:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    No methodology is going to be perfect but I think the player who has been the outstanding player on the field in his position most times over the course of the season is likely to be pretty deserving of the reward. And, as you say, it's over a season: a sample size of 5 games is going to give you skewed results.

    But that's not how points are accumulated. Lomax could be the best stand-off in the competition in a given week and score one point due to Roby and Walmsley also having excellent games. George Williams could score a couple of tries against London in a dire game and get three points even though he was middle of the pack in his position that week and probably not amongst the top 50 players overall.

    The best player from a 4th/5th place team without many stars could win MOS through consistent accumulation whilst the points get shared more evenly between players from the top sides like Saints.

    It's worse than flawed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1987 View Post
    But that's not how points are accumulated. Lomax could be the best stand-off in the competition in a given week and score one point due to Roby and Walmsley also having excellent games. George Williams could score a couple of tries against London in a dire game and get three points even though he was middle of the pack in his position that week and probably not amongst the top 50 players overall.

    The best player from a 4th/5th place team without many stars could win MOS through consistent accumulation whilst the points get shared more evenly between players from the top sides like Saints.

    It's worse than flawed.
    It's swings and roundabouts, though. Playing for a top team also gives you an advantage in that you are likely to be winning most weeks and thus there are more likely to be three point-scoring spots up for grabs each week.

    I can see that it's a problematic system for Dream Team, TBF. There's also the potential problem of players playing in multiple positions throughout the season (or even in a single match) which will create ambiguity over which column the points go in.

    For MOS, though, I like it.

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    There is never a perfect system, but if you are a marquee player in a s*** team, you have a better chance of picking up 3 points most weeks, assuming you out perform opposition. What that does say is Roby is in a team of quality players and still comes up with the goods. Isn’t that a MOS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    It's swings and roundabouts, though. Playing for a top team also gives you an advantage in that you are likely to be winning most weeks and thus there are more likely to be three point-scoring spots up for grabs each week.

    I can see that it's a problematic system for Dream Team, TBF. There's also the potential problem of players playing in multiple positions throughout the season (or even in a single match) which will create ambiguity over which column the points go in.

    For MOS, though, I like it.
    Dux there is three, two and one point available for all matches, so all the teams have a chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Dux there is three, two and one point available for all matches, so all the teams have a chance.
    Indeed, but if one team soundly beats the other then the likelihood is that the three, two and one points will all go to players from the winning team. That's already been the case in a few of our matches so far.

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