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Thread: Should we reduce our own import quota?

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    Default Should we reduce our own import quota?

    Interesting debate in the pub last night whilst watching the game about our own "import quota" and should we take matters into our own hands and do a self imposed reduction? Of the overseas players on our books we agreed that we would keep Naiqama and Coote for sure. Douglas and Paulo we would get rid of and Taia and Peyroux were debateable. Some of these might be decision made at the end of the season as they are off contract and could/will go in any case.

    The general feeling was that we have a wealth of talent that is being blocked by very average overseas imports - e.g. Batchelor, Ashworth, Welsby, Richardson, Bentley and others who will come through from the U19's.

    We agreed that we should still go after top level overseas players who become available, but is it now time to restrict that number and rely on our internal development?

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    IMO it should be a maximum of three per team. I've argued this point for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    IMO it should be a maximum of three per team. I've argued this point for years.
    Yes but should a team do it unilaterally? It needs to be agreed by all the clubs.

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    I think this dislike of Paulo is unwarranted. He’s not played huge minutes, but when he has been on the pitch he’s been an effective metre maker, tackler and seems to have an eye for a key pass.

    Also, in current performance and sharp end of last season I would keep Douglas.

    I understand the logic behind an import limit, but do we devalue the game by saying it there is not a strong enough youth/British talent pool, but we can’t have skilled or talented players from countries where rugby league has a higher share of player base?

    Also, what counts as homegrown? Catalan is in the super league, so would french players count? Will Canadian players count if Toronto come up this year?

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    Would someone mind explaining the current ruling for me, is it 6 oversees spaces? Where does Fages sit within it all?

    In theory we should be doing everything possible to ensure as many academy prospects make it to the first team, I do think it would weaken the competition as a whole though. Also what is the difference between us signing a British player from another club and signing someone from the NRL - eg George Williams or a comparable #6 from the NRL. Both would in theory be slowing/preventing someone from the academy (Welsby) from breaking into the first team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
    I think this dislike of Paulo is unwarranted. He’s not played huge minutes, but when he has been on the pitch he’s been an effective metre maker, tackler and seems to have an eye for a key pass.

    Also, in current performance and sharp end of last season I would keep Douglas.

    I understand the logic behind an import limit, but do we devalue the game by saying it there is not a strong enough youth/British talent pool, but we can’t have skilled or talented players from countries where rugby league has a higher share of player base?

    Also, what counts as homegrown? Catalan is in the super league, so would french players count? Will Canadian players count if Toronto come up this year?
    Beat me to it here. Agree on the Paulo point. He seems to be getting a lot of stick already, seems to have taken up the role of Wilkin in more ways than one

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    I don’t understand the criticism of Zeb Taia either. If we had a younger player playing 80 minutes in the back row, making 135 metres and however many tackles/carries as he did recently, I think we’d all be saying he deserves to be in the team. Taia does it and I’ve still read posts saying that someone else should play instead of him. His good games but seem to be played down and his not so good games seem to be over emphasised.

    In terms of the quota, I do think that the good players will find a way in. Generally, the good young players at Saints will do that. You’ll then have others who go onto play at other clubs (Jamie Ellis, Ashurst etc). There aren’t many who come back to bite Saints. I believe that the best Rugby League players should be playing but professional Rugby League, I don’t necessarily believe that we should prevent the better players from playing at that level. My belief has always been that we need a reserves format so we’ve got a greater opportunity to see who those best players are.

    Whether the quota should be reduced is another question I suppose.
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    Yes then our own talent can flourish.

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    Yes 3 HIGH QUALITY players per team sounds about right to me. Any more "expansion teams" such as NY coming into the comp at either of the 3 divisions levels I am happy for them to have a large overseas players quota incl British players but they need to have a plan of how they are going to reduce this number over the coming years. They need to be promoting the game within the area and looking to establish Scholarship, Academy and Reserves to eventually get down to the others quota levels.

    I personally dont buy into some people saying there isnt enough of a talent pool to expand. There are more areas expanding leagues and teams in other country's at the moment as well as players like Drinkwater who was playing at a lower level in Australia before going to Catalans, players in our own lower leagues (Walmsley, Hill, Batchelor, Bentley came through and coming through), Pacific Islanders. I would also go to two more teams within Super League rather than loop fixtures which I hate the sound of.

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    I think it is wrong to imply there is a wealth of talent that is being blocked by imports who are being selected purely because they are imports. There are, of course, homegrown players who are not being selected ahead of imports but perhaps that is because they are not good enough.

    Views on players are subjective and each of us has our personal biases towards players, especially those from overseas - for example Taia would be one of the first names on any team sheet that I selected while I share the view that Paulo is reliable and believe he will have an increasingly beneficial impact on the team. I can also understand the view that Ashworth has a lot to offer but it is not as if he hasn’t had a few opportunities to cement a place in the team. Similarly, Bentley has had a few run outs. What is clear, however, is that Holbrook does not believe that either is currently worthy of a place, basing this assessment not just on his instant reactions to watching a game live but on subsequent detailed analysis of every facet of each player’s performances together with attitude and aptitude in training.

    Reduction in imports would increase the opportunities for homegrown players but this would reduce the overall quality of teams in my view.

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    Managing your overseas quota should be relatively simple. Sign a player from overseas if they improve your squad and no other player is available. The problem is that there is still a mentality of, "they've played NRL so they must be better than we have" and this gets proven time and again not to always be the case.
    Good quality players will enhance Super league and often come with the added benefit of younger players learning from class players.

    I don't think we should have a self-imposed restriction because it would limit us if a good player did become available.

    FWIW I think over the last couple of years the quality of imports has improved.

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    Short answer NO. We're not as bad as football or rugby union were even the national teams are full of imports.

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    I would have a maximum of 4 overseas players and forget about the residency rule and the great great grandfather was English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish scenarios. Did hull have 9 overseas players a couple of years back.

    Another option to get around the employment rules is that you can have X amount of overseas players but can only play 4 of them in the match game.

    For us Peyroux and Paulo are not quite of a high enough standard and are holding up the development of Ashworth, Bentley and Batchelor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I would have a maximum of 4 overseas players and forget about the residency rule and the great great grandfather was English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish scenarios. Did hull have 9 overseas players a couple of years back.

    Another option to get around the employment rules is that you can have X amount of overseas players but can only play 4 of them in the match game.

    For us Peyroux and Paulo are not quite of a high enough standard and are holding up the development of Ashworth, Bentley and Batchelor.
    Ashworth maybe. The other two not near our first team yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I would have a maximum of 4 overseas players and forget about the residency rule and the great great grandfather was English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish scenarios. Did hull have 9 overseas players a couple of years back.

    Another option to get around the employment rules is that you can have X amount of overseas players but can only play 4 of them in the match game.

    For us Peyroux and Paulo are not quite of a high enough standard and are holding up the development of Ashworth, Bentley and Batchelor.

    Completely agree in the residency/ great grandfather argument, particularly when it comes to the internationals but that's probably another debate.

    Don't necessarily agree on the point around keeping people out of the side. Ashworth is being kept out by Amor, and can you honestly say that if the likes of Taia/ Peyroux/ Paulo weren't here then we'd be happy going with Bentley and Batchelor? For me if a player is good enough, they will make it - if they're not then they wont

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    IMO it should be a maximum of three per team. I've argued this point for years.

    As an aspiration, that's fine. Unfortunately some clubs would deliberately flout the rules and then, on appeal, get away with it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    I think it is wrong to imply there is a wealth of talent that is being blocked by imports who are being selected purely because they are imports. There are, of course, homegrown players who are not being selected ahead of imports but perhaps that is because they are not good enough.

    Views on players are subjective and each of us has our personal biases towards players, especially those from overseas - for example Taia would be one of the first names on any team sheet that I selected while I share the view that Paulo is reliable and believe he will have an increasingly beneficial impact on the team. I can also understand the view that Ashworth has a lot to offer but it is not as if he hasn’t had a few opportunities to cement a place in the team. Similarly, Bentley has had a few run outs. What is clear, however, is that Holbrook does not believe that either is currently worthy of a place, basing this assessment not just on his instant reactions to watching a game live but on subsequent detailed analysis of every facet of each player’s performances together with attitude and aptitude in training.

    Reduction in imports would increase the opportunities for homegrown players but this would reduce the overall quality of teams in my view.
    Totally agree.
    The depth/quality in the talent pool over here simply isn’t sufficient enough for all the teams to have a good enough squad. Super League as a spectacle would suffer greatly and this would lead to a reduction in fans, money etc etc.

    I don’t believe Saints sign NRL players because they are NRL players. KC may have done but he’d sign anyone and say they’re great. Holbrook will not. Paulo has a lot to prove but I’m definitely not writing him off yet. Peyroux and Taia are essential to our team and last week both played brilliantly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    Totally agree.
    The depth/quality in the talent pool over here simply isn’t sufficient enough for all the teams to have a good enough squad. Super League as a spectacle would suffer greatly and this would lead to a reduction in fans, money etc etc.

    I don’t believe Saints sign NRL players because they are NRL players. KC may have done but he’d sign anyone and say they’re great. Holbrook will not. Paulo has a lot to prove but I’m definitely not writing him off yet. Peyroux and Taia are essential to our team and last week both played brilliantly.
    For me the depth/quality in the talent is the RFL and clubs own doing we dropped the u/23s and the reserves for financial reasons. The quality of overseas players in the first decade of Superleague was far superior and again for financial reasons we are now getting a mediocrity quality of overseas player which is weakening the standard in the UK.

    Lots of clubs are spending "for the now" on short termism because every club is desperate for success with a pretty poor salary cap compared to that first decade of Superleague. It really needs a kind of amnesty from all clubs of a few seasons to promote home grown talent with a financial incentive behind it, Saints and a few other clubs could probably field a full 13 of home grown talent I think this is when a Salary Cap "top up" should be applied because they are promoting a much deeper player pool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
    I think this dislike of Paulo is unwarranted. He’s not played huge minutes, but when he has been on the pitch he’s been an effective metre maker, tackler and seems to have an eye for a key pass.

    Also, in current performance and sharp end of last season I would keep Douglas.

    I understand the logic behind an import limit, but do we devalue the game by saying it there is not a strong enough youth/British talent pool, but we can’t have skilled or talented players from countries where rugby league has a higher share of player base?

    Also, what counts as homegrown? Catalan is in the super league, so would french players count? Will Canadian players count if Toronto come up this year?
    Great post .
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    Thought Peyroux and Taia were great again last night, Peyroux in particular who was our best forward for me.
    Naiqama showed what he can do and Paulo did ok when he came on but still looks a bit slow, I’m sure he’ll create chances as a ball playing loose just don’t think he’ll finish many, pretty much like Wilkin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    Thought Peyroux and Taia were great again last night, Peyroux in particular who was our best forward for me.
    Naiqama showed what he can do and Paulo did ok when he came on but still looks a bit slow, I’m sure he’ll create chances as a ball playing loose just don’t think he’ll finish many, pretty much like Wilkin.
    I thought the Broncos targeted Walmsley and Thompson and did quite well containing them for most of the game. Don't know if that gave Peyroux a bit more space because he made more metres than usual, Taia was just Tai same effort and usual involvement to get Fages over the whitewash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
    I think this dislike of Paulo is unwarranted. He’s not played huge minutes, but when he has been on the pitch he’s been an effective metre maker, tackler and seems to have an eye for a key pass.

    Also, in current performance and sharp end of last season I would keep Douglas.

    I understand the logic behind an import limit, but do we devalue the game by saying it there is not a strong enough youth/British talent pool, but we can’t have skilled or talented players from countries where rugby league has a higher share of player base?

    Also, what counts as homegrown? Catalan is in the super league, so would french players count? Will Canadian players count if Toronto come up this year?

    I may stand alone here but I do believe we have a big enough talent pool, we need to be better at converting all the very young players we have and keeping them in the game

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    Not sure you can judge Joseph Paulo after just five games. Admittedly, he’s not been a standout player in that time but he’s adjusting not only to a new team and new calls and plays but to a new country a day away from home. He’s not looked great yet but he needs time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I may stand alone here but I do believe we have a big enough talent pool, we need to be better at converting all the very young players we have and keeping them in the game
    You’re not alone because, to be fair on Rogues, he mentions this quite a lot. However, a quick glance at the MOM thread shows how well some of our imports did last night.

    If we want to achieve a reduction of overseas players in all teams, I think the process has to start by having compulsory A Teams/Reserves.

    Are you saying that you think that Saints (going it alone) could rely on our home grown players and flourish or are you suggesting that all English Rugby League club’s need to change? The opening post suggests that Saints could just go it alone but I think that would put us at a disadvantage.

    I don’t mind the idea of limiting imports but I’m glad to have had the advantage of seeing some wonderful overseas players over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    You’re not alone because, to be fair on Rogues, he mentions this quite a lot. However, a quick glance at the MOM thread shows how well some of our imports did last night.

    If we want to achieve a reduction of overseas players in all teams, I think the process has to start by having compulsory A Teams/Reserves.

    Are you saying that you think that Saints (going it alone) could rely on our home grown players and flourish or are you suggesting that all English Rugby League club’s need to change? The opening post suggests that Saints could just go it alone but I think that would put us at a disadvantage.

    I don’t mind the idea of limiting imports but I’m glad to have had the advantage of seeing some wonderful overseas players over the years.
    Bit of both I think.

    I have always said that we should only sign top players from abroad, why sign a standard good pro when we could easily create those for ourselves, this doesn't need to be a rule but a business plan for the saints and others should they wish

    I would like a future that limits properly overseas players, but there is risk to the showcase, often new overseas players bring lots of interest and enthusiasm to fans

    Talent pool, we have so many young players from 6/7-16 and then a big drop off, probably starting at 14. Why? The RFL have done a big survey to try to understand this, personally I think players have always dropped off, but somehow with scholarship it seems worse. If we used a district under 16s rather than a professional club scholarship it would improve player retention, but the risk is leaving players a further two years from being under the professional umbrella which holds back the elite.
    Yes A teams and or maybe under 21s would defiantly improve the situation and help the player pool at late teens. We don't increase the player pool by reducing opportunity, which is why I would like two further teams in super league. The argument is there are not enough players, but it's chicken and egg, continually reducing opportunity will further reduce the pool. My idea is to increase SL and bring in compulsory under 21s with two older players allowed.

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