What is the population of Widnes? it's always seemed like a very small place to have a Super League team to me
I'm not surprised that they struggle to fill the ground, the town is tiny and they have bigger, sexier teams right on their doorstep
Stadium is right in the middle of the town. Train station not to far, bus services and plenty parking round stadium if you know where to look.
The bigger sexier teams I think where they fall away, not to do with people from Widnes supporting saints/wire/wigan. More that Widnes themselves are no longer successful.
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Widnes Vikings go into administration and deducted 12 points by RFL
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/47323878
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Less than £1000 in the Widnes bank account being mentioned after the press conference.
How are the mighty fallen! A great club with a proud history and a very sad day for British RL no matter the reason behind it. It is something the RFL, the Clubs and all fans should be very concerned about.
A lot of fans have given up on the game though, that's why clubs are struggling. I don't know why peop,e defend failure, cheshire is bigger for tv rights, for selling the game to sponsors even if gates didn't increase
Who identifies with Yorkshire, Manchester, England, GB, etc etc. Same argument
Small clubs equals small league and little money
I'm not defending failure. I'm saying that a merged 'Cheshire' club would also be a failure.
I would say that people who hail from or live in Manchester identify with the city much more strongly than someone from Runcorn or Widnes identifies with Cheshire. But ultimately what's most important is the culture of a sport. 'Cheshire' has no meaning as far as RL is concerned. By your logic London should be absolutely drowning in sponsors, but they're not, because there is no tradition for them to tap into: they play in a small stadium in front of small crowds, which is something that big sponsors don't want to be associated with, regardless of the name of the club or the size of the city/metropolitan borough/ceremonial county/conurbation they represent. (I'm not saying that London can never can be a success, by the way).
RL is a relatively small sport with limited resources (in terms of cash, supporter base and player base) and a very specific geographical footprint, outside of which it has very little presence at all. Alienating fans in those few areas where there is an embedded tradition would be tantamount to suicide, IMO, and that is exactly what mergers would do.
FWIW, and I know you will disagree with me on this, I think franchising has a lot to do with Widnes's current plight. They were held up for years as the main success story of franchising: they came up to SL and instead of rashly trying to achieve success they had the opportunity to build solid foundations over a few years without the threat of relegation. But for me they are the epitome of everything that is wrong with the franchising system. Happy to bumble along fulfilling their fixtures with no ambition whatsoever without the threat of relegation. Over that time they have basically been dying on the vine, because who wants to go and watch a team that is content to finish bottom every year?
Last edited by Dux; 22nd February 2019 at 15:49.
You cannot say Cheshire would have failed as you simp,y don't know
SL is over 20 years old, people in their twenties now have never known anything different, had their been no Widnes or Warrington club but only Cheshire then yes they would idn tidy, they cannot do so as currently no such club exists. It is also the heartlands, not like London so not a good comparison for you to make. Anyway, what fans are we risking alienating? The ones that don't turn up but demand to remain the same? It's not the first time this has happened, nobody wants to put money into small teams.
I know you mean well, but your holding the game back, that's fine if you want semi pro, that's all we will be if fans don't support change.
Even if they didn't have franchising, which they don't now, they still don't have money
Would you go and support 'The Billinge Environs Saint Warriors'? I wouldn't, and I don't imagine many Widnes or Warrington fans would buy into a merged Cheshire team either. You're right that I don't know for sure - nobody knows - but I feel pretty confident in my judgement that a merged Cheshire club would be basically having to start from scratch. And just look at the track record of new clubs in SL. It would be madness IMO to gamble two of the game's established clubs (and towns) on a venture like that.
As for your point that fans by now wouldn't know any different, you are making the (misguided, IMO) assumption that they would still be fans. How did you get into RL? I got into it because my Mum took me when I was a kid. She got into it because her Dad took her when she was a kid. That (or some version of that) is how most people get into RL (or any sport), which is why it is so difficult to break into non-traditional areas. If you alienate a generation of fans then who is going to take the next generation along to the game?
There is the middle way, though, where new expansion clubs in cities (that the public have all heard of) come in and replace those smaller clubs (who bump along with 2/3/4k attendances) in the top tier of the sport.
The obvious problem is that the new 'city' clubs in areas with no long pedigree of RL haven't so far delivered consistent success in terms of strong support.
But I think we need to keep on trying, because the alternative is to have half a dozen clubs consistently getting decent (10k+) crowds, a couple more in that 6k-8k bracket that gives them enough revenue to be alright if managed well, then the rest relying on being subsidised through a benefactor or through borrowing because they cannot attract enough fans, despite having decades and decades of history (and periods of major success)
I agree with this. I think that for some reason it always ends up being spoken about as either tradition or expansion but in fact it should be both. If a new club is able to demonstrate its viability by working its way through the leagues and supplanting a struggling SL club then that’s fine with me.
I can see the argument for Toronto in SL, as there simply isn't the opposition available in Canada/US. The alternative is to let them wither and die, whereas allowing them into SL (on merit!) has the potential to bring other similar ventures into the fold. Additionally, it's generated a lot of publicity even before they've reached SL.
With Catalans, I too would love a thriving pro French league, but again there isn't the aggregate of support across the country, nor the players. By having Catalans in SL being fully professional, it gives budding French RL players an incentive to really go for making career of it as whilst a full time pro contract might not be what the FRU might pay, it still offers a good wedge and great lifestyle of playing the game you love. Take that away by taking Catalans out of SL and creating a semi-pro French league, and it's back to a culture of the game being played by enthusiastic amateurs with some pocket money. Incidentally, when Catalans won the CC last year, I said they need to embrace the publicity the win brought to them. I don't know how they've fared on that front, but the idiotic RFL imposing that bond arsewittery was enough to deflate any feelgood factor.
I also want London to survive in SL and build. Having a decent London team opens sponsorship and media exposure doors. I'd also prefer Salford to stay in SL, and it's a mystery why they struggle for crowds in an area (west Manchester) that has always been a hotbed of RL player development. I'm keen to see how the Metrolink expanding to close to their stadium will benefit them.
If all this small regional sport stuff is the only way to have a fan base how do clubs in cities work? That just blows your hole argument out of the water. Your applying your own thoughts, that is why change is difficult for people, they look at what they want not what is needed for success
As for a merged Wigan saints team then why would there be? Both are successful, the only ones that need to merge or develop larger encompassing areas such as Liverpool are those struggling, like Widnes. That said your again applying your own thoughts, not of those future fans who yes would not know any different and are less likely to have your negative baggage
I’m not in favour of big city franchises per se. I’m not not a fan of Toronto playing ti super league. However small clubs with limited support: Widnes, Salford, Huddersfield, for example can’t sustain a fully professional league. Promoting teams like Batley, Dewsbury, Oldham or Hemel Hampstead isn’t the way forward either though.
Maybe the support is destined to be semi professional and parochial, I don’t know. That can’t support decent stadia and TV deals though surely.
There must be some sort of middle ground. Teams like Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Warrington don’t need to merge but Castleford and Featherstone might, Salford, Oldham and Leigh? Maybe. I u derstand that die hard Oldham supporters may not wat h a merged team but if that team was playing in a state of the art stadium and beating top teams by playing scintillating rugby maybe they would. Toulouse and Catalan playing in a super league could work too, but Toronto playing three thousand miles from home makes no sense to me.
It’s a thorny area I know with strong arguments on both sides
This is the mentality that has held Cumbria back. They have been given the opportunity to merge but all to often listen to the noises minority who apply their own wishes above that of the sport in their own area. Where has this got them, no new fans, poor playing numbers in their youth systems, no big club to look up to, little opportunity to turn fully pro (unless you travel to Lancs/Yorks three times a week) and they continue their downward spiral whilst claiming"NOBODY WILL WATCH A MERGED TEAM" well nobody is watching anyway, little. Ore than good amateur set ups unless they sort themselves out
A poster said the other day all that Widnes need is a large investment of money and new ideas, well no Sh1t?? Doesn't everyone, but who will invest in a small town failing club? That's right nobody, but your against merging or expanding into Liverpool because it won't work!
Eh? I haven't said anything about small regional sport stuff being the only way to build a fan base. I've said that sporting culture is handed down from generation to generation. This applies just as much in big cities as it does in small towns. I also don't think there's any need for you to patronise me about not being prepared to entertain the idea of change or about 'applying my own thoughts' ... I've made a perfectly reasonable argument and, as you'll see from my other posts, I'm not opposed to expansion.
It was a hypothetical example. Surely you can see the point: if Saints or Wigan fans wouldn't turn out to watch a merged team then in all likelihood neither would Widnes or Warrington fans turn out to watch Cheshire. And you keep talking about Widnes, but if the proposed Cheshire team had come into being there would be no Warrington, which is currently one of the strongest and richest clubs in the game.
You've completely sidestepped my point. You can't just assume that there will be future fans if you kill off heartland clubs.
Is it the noisy minority though or is it the vast majority in that area? You can't expect Whitehaven and Workington fans just to ignore generations of support and rivalry to buy into a concept neither of them want. Its their club its no one elses in the same way St Helens is my club. The size of the club doesn't matter.
You keep saying that Saints and Wigan would never have had to merge but what if that was the only option before McManus bought us? If we were on the brink of going bust and proposed a South Lancs side and that was the only option of having some sort of pro RL in the town? It wouldn't take off.
"Cheshire" wouldn't have worked, "Cumbria" wouldn't have worked and Huddersfield Sheffield failed. You can't take fans clubs off them and expect them to embrace a new side that they have no connection or emotional attachment too just because its there and your a fan of the sport.
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I think you mean perfectly well, there's no intention to patronise and apologise if that's how it read.
But I do feel strongly that expansion, name changing, merging all have their place in increasing fan base, exposure and selling rights to TV and sponsors. The old arguments for the status quo would have value if these clubs had success, enough time has now passed to prove it isn't working, Leigh, Widnes twice, Cumbria etc.
London does well with a small but committed following, they have the advantage of having a big city name to help us sell our sport as Nationwide not regional.
Toronto I would say no if we weren't so desperate, but they have shown many current clubs up with how they have sold the sport in such a short space of time, with no history what so eve, so the need to have heritage to grow isn't correct. You don't lose history or heritage just because you change, that history is still there and can be part of your development moving forward.
We must embrace new ideas to promote our game, or we will be semi pro very quickly
Pure speculation on your part.
Where as I can demonstrate those clubs have continually failed, this mentality is holding the game back.
Again you are using current thinking from current fans, we are not the future, the youngsters are, this is how language develops, trends develop etc. The youth have a larger impact on change than those stuck in their ways.
Cumbria would work given time and money, the money has now gone, so unless they sort themselves out they are semi prro at best
I've said before those clubs could survive as the reserve teams, with the first team being a merged team, so identity is kept but bigger and better is available for more people to enjoy, which leads to sponsors, tv money etc.
No risk, no benefit, at the moment it's just a slow death
Fair enough. We both want the same thing but disagree about how to achieve it. As I said, I'm not at all opposed to new ideas or to expansion, but I do think that we have to be very careful that we maintain a RL culture in the heartlands and mergers are a serious threat to that IMO.