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Thread: Widnes going under? Game cancelled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    That’s RL fans in general. I know that some people on turn up for the big games at Saints because the games against smaller clubs are “boring” because we win most easily and the atmosphere is poor.
    Agreed, but Saints have a average attendance of 10k. Widnes is what? 4k maybe 3k (without looking into it)

    Thats with us playing most games on Friday nights as well and Widnes playing sunday afternoon.




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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    Agreed, but Saints have a average attendance of 10k. Widnes is what? 4k maybe 3k (without looking into it)

    Thats with us playing most games on Friday nights as well and Widnes playing sunday afternoon.

    I think it’s a game wide problem and I can understand why losing most weeks would put people off, even on a Sunday afternoon. There’s little entertainment value from a one-sided game and I imagine it becomes almost like a chore attending most weeks when it’s like this.



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    What is the population of Widnes? it's always seemed like a very small place to have a Super League team to me

    I'm not surprised that they struggle to fill the ground, the town is tiny and they have bigger, sexier teams right on their doorstep

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    What is the population of Widnes? it's always seemed like a very small place to have a Super League team to me

    I'm not surprised that they struggle to fill the ground, the town is tiny and they have bigger, sexier teams right on their doorstep
    Stadium is right in the middle of the town. Train station not to far, bus services and plenty parking round stadium if you know where to look.

    The bigger sexier teams I think where they fall away, not to do with people from Widnes supporting saints/wire/wigan. More that Widnes themselves are no longer successful.

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    Widnes Vikings go into administration and deducted 12 points by RFL

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/47323878


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    Less than £1000 in the Widnes bank account being mentioned after the press conference.

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    How are the mighty fallen! A great club with a proud history and a very sad day for British RL no matter the reason behind it. It is something the RFL, the Clubs and all fans should be very concerned about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    But who is likely to identify with a club called 'Cheshire'? Or 'Calder', as one of the other proposed mergers was called? I think you would have just seen a large proportion of both Warrington and Widnes fans giving up on the game, and once you've lost that base you're in trouble.
    A lot of fans have given up on the game though, that's why clubs are struggling. I don't know why peop,e defend failure, cheshire is bigger for tv rights, for selling the game to sponsors even if gates didn't increase

    Who identifies with Yorkshire, Manchester, England, GB, etc etc. Same argument

    Small clubs equals small league and little money

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.S.F View Post
    Great, lets have a club with no history or fans that attracts investment. Maybe they can build a stadium in Antrobus and get Barbour to make their kits.
    Once again your right, let's keep,widnes with no fans, income and money, great solution

    Why does anyone watch Toronto, they have no history, only clubs with history allowed to join the league, that's how we expand

    This is the mentality that holds us back

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    A lot of fans have given up on the game though, that's why clubs are struggling. I don't know why peop,e defend failure, cheshire is bigger for tv rights, for selling the game to sponsors even if gates didn't increase

    Who identifies with Yorkshire, Manchester, England, GB, etc etc. Same argument

    Small clubs equals small league and little money
    I'm not defending failure. I'm saying that a merged 'Cheshire' club would also be a failure.

    I would say that people who hail from or live in Manchester identify with the city much more strongly than someone from Runcorn or Widnes identifies with Cheshire. But ultimately what's most important is the culture of a sport. 'Cheshire' has no meaning as far as RL is concerned. By your logic London should be absolutely drowning in sponsors, but they're not, because there is no tradition for them to tap into: they play in a small stadium in front of small crowds, which is something that big sponsors don't want to be associated with, regardless of the name of the club or the size of the city/metropolitan borough/ceremonial county/conurbation they represent. (I'm not saying that London can never can be a success, by the way).

    RL is a relatively small sport with limited resources (in terms of cash, supporter base and player base) and a very specific geographical footprint, outside of which it has very little presence at all. Alienating fans in those few areas where there is an embedded tradition would be tantamount to suicide, IMO, and that is exactly what mergers would do.

    FWIW, and I know you will disagree with me on this, I think franchising has a lot to do with Widnes's current plight. They were held up for years as the main success story of franchising: they came up to SL and instead of rashly trying to achieve success they had the opportunity to build solid foundations over a few years without the threat of relegation. But for me they are the epitome of everything that is wrong with the franchising system. Happy to bumble along fulfilling their fixtures with no ambition whatsoever without the threat of relegation. Over that time they have basically been dying on the vine, because who wants to go and watch a team that is content to finish bottom every year?
    Last edited by Dux; 22nd February 2019 at 15:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I'm not defending failure. I'm saying that a merged 'Cheshire' club would also be a failure.

    I would say that people who hail from or live in Manchester identify with the city much more strongly than someone from Runcorn or Widnes identifies with Cheshire. But ultimately what's most important is the culture of a sport. 'Cheshire' has no meaning as far as RL is concerned. By your logic London should be absolutely drowning in sponsors, but they're not, because there is no tradition for them to tap into: they play in a small stadium in front of small crowds, which is something that big sponsors don't want to be associated with, regardless of the name of the club, or the size of the city/metropolitan borough/ceremonial county they represent. (I'm not saying that London can never can be a success, by the way).

    RL is a relatively small sport with limited resources (in terms of cash, supporter base and player base) and a very specific geographical footprint, outside of which it has very little presence at all. Alienating fans in those few areas where there is an embedded tradition would be tantamount to suicide, IMO, and that is exactly what mergers would do.

    FWIW, and I know you will disagree with me on this, I think franchising has a lot to do with Widnes's current plight. They were held up for years as the main success story of franchising: they came up to SL and instead of rashly trying to achieve success they had the opportunity to build solid foundations over a few years without the threat of relegation. But for me they are the epitome of everything that is wrong with the franchising system. Happy to bumble along fulfilling their fixtures with no ambition whatsoever without the threat of relegation. Over that time they have basially been dying on the vine, because who wants to go and watch a team that is content to finish bottom every year?
    You cannot say Cheshire would have failed as you simp,y don't know

    SL is over 20 years old, people in their twenties now have never known anything different, had their been no Widnes or Warrington club but only Cheshire then yes they would idn tidy, they cannot do so as currently no such club exists. It is also the heartlands, not like London so not a good comparison for you to make. Anyway, what fans are we risking alienating? The ones that don't turn up but demand to remain the same? It's not the first time this has happened, nobody wants to put money into small teams.
    I know you mean well, but your holding the game back, that's fine if you want semi pro, that's all we will be if fans don't support change.

    Even if they didn't have franchising, which they don't now, they still don't have money

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    You cannot say Cheshire would have failed as you simp,y don't know

    SL is over 20 years old, people in their twenties now have never known anything different, had their been no Widnes or Warrington club but only Cheshire then yes they would idn tidy, they cannot do so as currently no such club exists. It is also the heartlands, not like London so not a good comparison for you to make. Anyway, what fans are we risking alienating? The ones that don't turn up but demand to remain the same? It's not the first time this has happened, nobody wants to put money into small teams.
    I know you mean well, but your holding the game back, that's fine if you want semi pro, that's all we will be if fans don't support change.

    Even if they didn't have franchising, which they don't now, they still don't have money
    Would you go and support 'The Billinge Environs Saint Warriors'? I wouldn't, and I don't imagine many Widnes or Warrington fans would buy into a merged Cheshire team either. You're right that I don't know for sure - nobody knows - but I feel pretty confident in my judgement that a merged Cheshire club would be basically having to start from scratch. And just look at the track record of new clubs in SL. It would be madness IMO to gamble two of the game's established clubs (and towns) on a venture like that.

    As for your point that fans by now wouldn't know any different, you are making the (misguided, IMO) assumption that they would still be fans. How did you get into RL? I got into it because my Mum took me when I was a kid. She got into it because her Dad took her when she was a kid. That (or some version of that) is how most people get into RL (or any sport), which is why it is so difficult to break into non-traditional areas. If you alienate a generation of fans then who is going to take the next generation along to the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Tremendous post that. There seems to be a school of thought that our game will be fine once Toronto, New York, Dublin, Liverpool, Manchester and London replace all these little towns that currently dominate. But that just won't happen for the reasons you state. A World League model is as doomed in RL as it was in the NFL. Expansionists choose to ignore this example, largely because they might not have an interest in American Football and don't know too much about it. But it failed because ultimately there is no culture of American Football in Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Barcelona and London.

    As soon as big city franchises replace traditional greats like Saints, Wigan etc..the very fan base that supports the game now and to a large extent props it up will disappear. Replacing those people is not a given.

    There is the middle way, though, where new expansion clubs in cities (that the public have all heard of) come in and replace those smaller clubs (who bump along with 2/3/4k attendances) in the top tier of the sport.

    The obvious problem is that the new 'city' clubs in areas with no long pedigree of RL haven't so far delivered consistent success in terms of strong support.

    But I think we need to keep on trying, because the alternative is to have half a dozen clubs consistently getting decent (10k+) crowds, a couple more in that 6k-8k bracket that gives them enough revenue to be alright if managed well, then the rest relying on being subsidised through a benefactor or through borrowing because they cannot attract enough fans, despite having decades and decades of history (and periods of major success)

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    Default Widnes going under? Game cancelled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    There is the middle way, though, where new expansion clubs in cities (that the public have all heard of) come in and replace those smaller clubs (who bump along with 2/3/4k attendances) in the top tier of the sport.

    The obvious problem is that the new 'city' clubs in areas with no long pedigree of RL haven't so far delivered consistent success in terms of strong support.

    But I think we need to keep on trying, because the alternative is to have half a dozen clubs consistently getting decent (10k+) crowds, a couple more in that 6k-8k bracket that gives them enough revenue to be alright if managed well, then the rest relying on being subsidised through a benefactor or through borrowing because they cannot attract enough fans, despite having decades and decades of history (and periods of major success)
    I agree with this. I think that for some reason it always ends up being spoken about as either tradition or expansion but in fact it should be both. If a new club is able to demonstrate its viability by working its way through the leagues and supplanting a struggling SL club then that’s fine with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    I'm against Toronto and New York in SL for two reasons really. One is that logistically that is ridiculous. Toronto have only got this far because they were willing to pay for opposition to go and play against them. Secondly because I think it kills any hope of establishing pro leagues in Canada and France which, if it could be achieved, would be a sign of true expansion. At the moment all we want to do is shoehorn them into the UK structure and in so doing we narrow the focus of the game rather than broadening it.

    Notwithstanding that Toronto are here now so I wouldn't advocate kicking them out. I can see a decent two-tier set up, or else one larger division made up of all the clubs that can prove that they can be run sustainably as a fully professional outfit. So the 12 we have now in Super League would get a go and they could be joined by the handful of Championship clubs who have the means and the ambition to make the step up. Some clubs will never have the means nor the ambition so may be better reverting to semi-pro status.

    I've always been heavily in favour of promotion and relegation because I think it is a myth that scrapping it allows clubs to build. Look at Widnes, years of stagnation under the franchising system in which they never really improved or never really looked like they cared about improving. All of a sudden when they do drop down to the second tier they can't cope with it and we are where we are. Other clubs would follow suit if we close the door, happy to be involved in Super League without ever threatening to compete properly in it.
    I can see the argument for Toronto in SL, as there simply isn't the opposition available in Canada/US. The alternative is to let them wither and die, whereas allowing them into SL (on merit!) has the potential to bring other similar ventures into the fold. Additionally, it's generated a lot of publicity even before they've reached SL.

    With Catalans, I too would love a thriving pro French league, but again there isn't the aggregate of support across the country, nor the players. By having Catalans in SL being fully professional, it gives budding French RL players an incentive to really go for making career of it as whilst a full time pro contract might not be what the FRU might pay, it still offers a good wedge and great lifestyle of playing the game you love. Take that away by taking Catalans out of SL and creating a semi-pro French league, and it's back to a culture of the game being played by enthusiastic amateurs with some pocket money. Incidentally, when Catalans won the CC last year, I said they need to embrace the publicity the win brought to them. I don't know how they've fared on that front, but the idiotic RFL imposing that bond arsewittery was enough to deflate any feelgood factor.

    I also want London to survive in SL and build. Having a decent London team opens sponsorship and media exposure doors. I'd also prefer Salford to stay in SL, and it's a mystery why they struggle for crowds in an area (west Manchester) that has always been a hotbed of RL player development. I'm keen to see how the Metrolink expanding to close to their stadium will benefit them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    Would you go and support 'The Billinge Environs Saint Warriors'? I wouldn't, and I don't imagine many Widnes or Warrington fans would buy into a merged Cheshire team either. You're right that I don't know for sure - nobody knows - but I feel pretty confident in my judgement that a merged Cheshire club would be basically having to start from scratch. And just look at the track record of new clubs in SL. It would be madness IMO to gamble two of the game's established clubs (and towns) on a venture like that.

    As for your point that fans by now wouldn't know any different, you are making the (misguided, IMO) assumption that they would still be fans. How did you get into RL? I got into it because my Mum took me when I was a kid. She got into it because her Dad took her when she was a kid. That (or some version of that) is how most people get into RL (or any sport), which is why it is so difficult to break into non-traditional areas. If you alienate a generation of fans then who is going to take the next generation along to the game?
    If all this small regional sport stuff is the only way to have a fan base how do clubs in cities work? That just blows your hole argument out of the water. Your applying your own thoughts, that is why change is difficult for people, they look at what they want not what is needed for success

    As for a merged Wigan saints team then why would there be? Both are successful, the only ones that need to merge or develop larger encompassing areas such as Liverpool are those struggling, like Widnes. That said your again applying your own thoughts, not of those future fans who yes would not know any different and are less likely to have your negative baggage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Tremendous post that. There seems to be a school of thought that our game will be fine once Toronto, New York, Dublin, Liverpool, Manchester and London replace all these little towns that currently dominate. But that just won't happen for the reasons you state. A World League model is as doomed in RL as it was in the NFL. Expansionists choose to ignore this example, largely because they might not have an interest in American Football and don't know too much about it. But it failed because ultimately there is no culture of American Football in Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Barcelona and London.

    As soon as big city franchises replace traditional greats like Saints, Wigan etc..the very fan base that supports the game now and to a large extent props it up will disappear. Replacing those people is not a given.
    I’m not in favour of big city franchises per se. I’m not not a fan of Toronto playing ti super league. However small clubs with limited support: Widnes, Salford, Huddersfield, for example can’t sustain a fully professional league. Promoting teams like Batley, Dewsbury, Oldham or Hemel Hampstead isn’t the way forward either though.

    Maybe the support is destined to be semi professional and parochial, I don’t know. That can’t support decent stadia and TV deals though surely.

    There must be some sort of middle ground. Teams like Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Warrington don’t need to merge but Castleford and Featherstone might, Salford, Oldham and Leigh? Maybe. I u derstand that die hard Oldham supporters may not wat h a merged team but if that team was playing in a state of the art stadium and beating top teams by playing scintillating rugby maybe they would. Toulouse and Catalan playing in a super league could work too, but Toronto playing three thousand miles from home makes no sense to me.

    It’s a thorny area I know with strong arguments on both sides

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    This is the mentality that has held Cumbria back. They have been given the opportunity to merge but all to often listen to the noises minority who apply their own wishes above that of the sport in their own area. Where has this got them, no new fans, poor playing numbers in their youth systems, no big club to look up to, little opportunity to turn fully pro (unless you travel to Lancs/Yorks three times a week) and they continue their downward spiral whilst claiming"NOBODY WILL WATCH A MERGED TEAM" well nobody is watching anyway, little. Ore than good amateur set ups unless they sort themselves out

    A poster said the other day all that Widnes need is a large investment of money and new ideas, well no Sh1t?? Doesn't everyone, but who will invest in a small town failing club? That's right nobody, but your against merging or expanding into Liverpool because it won't work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    If all this small regional sport stuff is the only way to have a fan base how do clubs in cities work? That just blows your hole argument out of the water. Your applying your own thoughts, that is why change is difficult for people, they look at what they want not what is needed for success
    Eh? I haven't said anything about small regional sport stuff being the only way to build a fan base. I've said that sporting culture is handed down from generation to generation. This applies just as much in big cities as it does in small towns. I also don't think there's any need for you to patronise me about not being prepared to entertain the idea of change or about 'applying my own thoughts' ... I've made a perfectly reasonable argument and, as you'll see from my other posts, I'm not opposed to expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    As for a merged Wigan saints team then why would there be? Both are successful, the only ones that need to merge or develop larger encompassing areas such as Liverpool are those struggling, like Widnes.
    It was a hypothetical example. Surely you can see the point: if Saints or Wigan fans wouldn't turn out to watch a merged team then in all likelihood neither would Widnes or Warrington fans turn out to watch Cheshire. And you keep talking about Widnes, but if the proposed Cheshire team had come into being there would be no Warrington, which is currently one of the strongest and richest clubs in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    That said your again applying your own thoughts, not of those future fans who yes would not know any different and are less likely to have your negative baggage
    You've completely sidestepped my point. You can't just assume that there will be future fans if you kill off heartland clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I’m not in favour of big city franchises per se. I’m not not a fan of Toronto playing in super league. However small clubs with limited support: Widnes, Salford, Huddersfield, for example can’t sustain a fully professional league. Promoting teams like Batley, Dewsbury, Oldham or Hemel Hampstead isn’t the way forward either though. Current small teams are on the edge of failure anyway, like Widnes. Is only the fault of poor management. I believe Bradford still get decent crowds because there is a market.

    Maybe the sport is destined to be semi professional and parochial, I don’t know. That can’t support decent stadia and TV deals though surely.

    There must be some sort of middle ground. Teams like Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Warrington don’t need to merge but Castleford and Featherstone might, Salford, Oldham and Leigh? Maybe. I understand that die hard Oldham supporters may not watch a merged team but if that team was playing in a state of the art stadium and beating top teams by playing scintillating rugby maybe they would. Toulouse and Catalan playing in a super league could work too, but Toronto playing three thousand miles from home makes no sense to me. I don’t see why we “need” a team in London if there isn’t the support for it if there is that’s fine. If there is support for a bid city team somewhere, so be it and there is one way of finding out.

    It’s a thorny area I know with strong arguments on both sides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    This is the mentality that has held Cumbria back. They have been given the opportunity to merge but all to often listen to the noises minority who apply their own wishes above that of the sport in their own area. Where has this got them, no new fans, poor playing numbers in their youth systems, no big club to look up to, little opportunity to turn fully pro (unless you travel to Lancs/Yorks three times a week) and they continue their downward spiral whilst claiming"NOBODY WILL WATCH A MERGED TEAM" well nobody is watching anyway, little. Ore than good amateur set ups unless they sort themselves out

    A poster said the other day all that Widnes need is a large investment of money and new ideas, well no Sh1t?? Doesn't everyone, but who will invest in a small town failing club? That's right nobody, but your against merging or expanding into Liverpool because it won't work!
    Is it the noisy minority though or is it the vast majority in that area? You can't expect Whitehaven and Workington fans just to ignore generations of support and rivalry to buy into a concept neither of them want. Its their club its no one elses in the same way St Helens is my club. The size of the club doesn't matter.

    You keep saying that Saints and Wigan would never have had to merge but what if that was the only option before McManus bought us? If we were on the brink of going bust and proposed a South Lancs side and that was the only option of having some sort of pro RL in the town? It wouldn't take off.

    "Cheshire" wouldn't have worked, "Cumbria" wouldn't have worked and Huddersfield Sheffield failed. You can't take fans clubs off them and expect them to embrace a new side that they have no connection or emotional attachment too just because its there and your a fan of the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    Eh? I haven't said anything about small regional sport stuff being the only way to build a fan base. I've said that sporting culture is handed down from generation to generation. This applies just as much in big cities as it does in small towns. I also don't think there's any need for you to patronise me about not being prepared to entertain the idea of change or about 'applying my own thoughts' ... I've made a perfectly reasonable argument and, as you'll see from my other posts, I'm not opposed to expansion.


    It was a hypothetical example. Surely you can see the point: if Saints or Wigan fans wouldn't turn out to watch a merged team then in all likelihood neither would Widnes or Warrington fans turn out to watch Cheshire. And you keep talking about Widnes, but if the Cheshire team has come into being there would be no Warrington, which is currently one of the strongest and richest clubs in the game.


    You've completely sidestepped my point. You can't just assume that there will be future fans if you kill off heartland clubs.

    I think you mean perfectly well, there's no intention to patronise and apologise if that's how it read.

    But I do feel strongly that expansion, name changing, merging all have their place in increasing fan base, exposure and selling rights to TV and sponsors. The old arguments for the status quo would have value if these clubs had success, enough time has now passed to prove it isn't working, Leigh, Widnes twice, Cumbria etc.

    London does well with a small but committed following, they have the advantage of having a big city name to help us sell our sport as Nationwide not regional.
    Toronto I would say no if we weren't so desperate, but they have shown many current clubs up with how they have sold the sport in such a short space of time, with no history what so eve, so the need to have heritage to grow isn't correct. You don't lose history or heritage just because you change, that history is still there and can be part of your development moving forward.

    We must embrace new ideas to promote our game, or we will be semi pro very quickly

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    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    Is it the noisy minority though or is it the vast majority in that area? You can't expect Whitehaven and Workington fans just to ignore generations of support and rivalry to buy into a concept neither of them want. Its their club its no one elses in the same way St Helens is my club. The size of the club doesn't matter.

    You keep saying that Saints and Wigan would never have had to merge but what if that was the only option before McManus bought us? If we were on the brink of going bust and proposed a South Lancs side and that was the only option of having some sort of pro RL in the town? It wouldn't take off.

    "Cheshire" wouldn't have worked, "Cumbria" wouldn't have worked and Huddersfield Sheffield failed. You can't take fans clubs off them and expect them to embrace a new side that they have no connection or emotional attachment too just because its there and your a fan of the sport.

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    Pure speculation on your part.

    Where as I can demonstrate those clubs have continually failed, this mentality is holding the game back.

    Again you are using current thinking from current fans, we are not the future, the youngsters are, this is how language develops, trends develop etc. The youth have a larger impact on change than those stuck in their ways.
    Cumbria would work given time and money, the money has now gone, so unless they sort themselves out they are semi prro at best

    I've said before those clubs could survive as the reserve teams, with the first team being a merged team, so identity is kept but bigger and better is available for more people to enjoy, which leads to sponsors, tv money etc.

    No risk, no benefit, at the moment it's just a slow death

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I think you mean perfectly well, there's no intention to patronise and apologise if that's how it read.

    But I do feel strongly that expansion, name changing, merging all have their place in increasing fan base, exposure and selling rights to TV and sponsors. The old arguments for the status quo would have value if these clubs had success, enough time has now passed to prove it isn't working, Leigh, Widnes twice, Cumbria etc.

    London does well with a small but committed following, they have the advantage of having a big city name to help us sell our sport as Nationwide not regional.
    Toronto I would say no if we weren't so desperate, but they have shown many current clubs up with how they have sold the sport in such a short space of time, with no history what so eve, so the need to have heritage to grow isn't correct. You don't lose history or heritage just because you change, that history is still there and can be part of your development moving forward.

    We must embrace new ideas to promote our game, or we will be semi pro very quickly
    Fair enough. We both want the same thing but disagree about how to achieve it. As I said, I'm not at all opposed to new ideas or to expansion, but I do think that we have to be very careful that we maintain a RL culture in the heartlands and mergers are a serious threat to that IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.S.F View Post
    I'm not saying Widnes have got it right, they clearly haven't but if their fans aren't going as it is now they certainly aren't going to go to watch a team they can't identify with.
    as for Toronto, I don't really know a great deal about them but in a city of 2.7m people, they maybe get 2-3000 to home games so that's hardly brilliant. I must admit, is was for them when they started but to be honest I couldn't care less now, they're a horrible team of bullies who get every call going. I hope when they make SL which I'm certain they will, they get slapped weekly.

    I think they get more than double that, over 6k

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