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Thread: Team/Bench with 8 interchanges

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    Default Team/Bench with 8 interchanges

    This is going to be a bit unstructured so apologies.

    With the number of interchanges being reduced all teams will have tough decisions to make. For example the interchange hooker using 2 of the 8 interchanges will be tough to justify. In fact the only way it can really work without hurting your prop rotation is for a player to play 40 mins at 13 and 20 at 9 while your starting hooker rests.

    I was working through the permutations and think that in effect Saints will have 3 subs taking up 7 interchanges and then a 4th player as an injury replacement. With the head injury assessments some teams could carry a 4th forward and try to game the system to get back up to 10 interchanges (hopefully the RFL are wise to this possibility).

    Here's what i had for Saints for the big games:

    1 backrow playing 80 mins (think it's best to rotate rather than run Taia into the ground)
    1 playing 0-25 and 55-80
    1 playing 0-55
    1 playing 25-80

    That's 2 interchanges.

    I assume the 4 first choice players will be Taia, Peyroux (can cover centre), Knowles (can cover hooker) and Paulo (can cover halves). We'll have 2 props on the bench but i'm not sure who will be the 4th sub. Due to the 8 interchanges it will be difficult to use them assuming a normal prop rotation.

    I agree with a post from a while ago that Walmsley should start in order to maximise his run-outs.

    Let's say he plays 0-15, 30-50 and 70-80, that way you get 4 spells from him due to the half time break.

    You need the other starter (i'd use Thompson) to go longer to open, so 0-25 and 50-70.

    One sub to do 15-50 (Lees) and the other to do 25 to 70 (LMS).

    That's 5 interchanges and 7 total (final interchange in case of injury or to take off Roby when the game is decided, in latter case Lees would play last 10 instead of Walmsley). Obviously this is plan A and within a game things can change (plus the timings won't be exact).

    Then have Douglas and Ashworth rotating in to keep everyone fresh (i don't see a place for Amor without injuries). This will be essential with the required longer stints and ideally Walmsley plays 3 games out of every 4. Some people may think this is too few games but remember that really everything rests on 2 games at the end of the season plus the Challenge Cup.

    It may also be easier to keep Roby fresh by resting him against the bottom teams in addition to taking him off once other games are beyond doubt. Another option is if Roby started from the bench then you could reduce the hooker position to 1 interchange, with the other alternative being for Knowles to do a stint at 9 in the middle period (don't think him starting at hooker would be a good idea). The prop rotation could also be altered when Walmsley is rotated which would mean cover for Roby on the bench would be easier to manage.

    I think managing the interchanges will be a key aspect this season and hopefully Saints have done the necessary research in order to maximise performance. Analytics will be more important than ever as teams will identify which opposition players tire when asked to do longer stints etc. and which types of moves are more likely to succeed at certain times of the match.

    I also hope we've investigated the pros and cons of 2 carry sets from Walmsley in terms of metres gained, especially as it won't be as easy to bring him off and on again so much. Do we gain more metres per set from a 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2 (12 carries over 7 sets) and 2 sets without Walmsley or a 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2 (13 carries over 9 sets)? Is the fatigue the same from both efforts (second option is a longer stint with 1 more carry and more defensive work but only 2 of the punishing double carry sets in the first 7 rather than 5 in the first scenario).

    Cliff notes: 8 interchanges will mean props doing longer stints, impact type props like Walmsley mean 1 sub becomes injury/game out of hand replacement, need to assess impact of 2 carry sets, will have to be creative with Roby's minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1987 View Post
    This is going to be a bit unstructured so apologies.

    With the number of interchanges being reduced all teams will have tough decisions to make. For example the interchange hooker using 2 of the 8 interchanges will be tough to justify. In fact the only way it can really work without hurting your prop rotation is for a player to play 40 mins at 13 and 20 at 9 while your starting hooker rests.

    I was working through the permutations and think that in effect Saints will have 3 subs taking up 7 interchanges and then a 4th player as an injury replacement. With the head injury assessments some teams could carry a 4th forward and try to game the system to get back up to 10 interchanges (hopefully the RFL are wise to this possibility).

    Here's what i had for Saints for the big games:

    1 backrow playing 80 mins (think it's best to rotate rather than run Taia into the ground)
    1 playing 0-25 and 55-80
    1 playing 0-55
    1 playing 25-80

    That's 2 interchanges.

    I assume the 4 first choice players will be Taia, Peyroux (can cover centre), Knowles (can cover hooker) and Paulo (can cover halves). We'll have 2 props on the bench but i'm not sure who will be the 4th sub. Due to the 8 interchanges it will be difficult to use them assuming a normal prop rotation.

    I agree with a post from a while ago that Walmsley should start in order to maximise his run-outs.

    Let's say he plays 0-15, 30-50 and 70-80, that way you get 4 spells from him due to the half time break.

    You need the other starter (i'd use Thompson) to go longer to open, so 0-25 and 50-70.

    One sub to do 15-50 (Lees) and the other to do 25 to 70 (LMS).

    That's 5 interchanges and 7 total (final interchange in case of injury or to take off Roby when the game is decided, in latter case Lees would play last 10 instead of Walmsley). Obviously this is plan A and within a game things can change (plus the timings won't be exact).

    Then have Douglas and Ashworth rotating in to keep everyone fresh (i don't see a place for Amor without injuries). This will be essential with the required longer stints and ideally Walmsley plays 3 games out of every 4. Some people may think this is too few games but remember that really everything rests on 2 games at the end of the season plus the Challenge Cup.

    It may also be easier to keep Roby fresh by resting him against the bottom teams in addition to taking him off once other games are beyond doubt. Another option is if Roby started from the bench then you could reduce the hooker position to 1 interchange, with the other alternative being for Knowles to do a stint at 9 in the middle period (don't think him starting at hooker would be a good idea). The prop rotation could also be altered when Walmsley is rotated which would mean cover for Roby on the bench would be easier to manage.

    I think managing the interchanges will be a key aspect this season and hopefully Saints have done the necessary research in order to maximise performance. Analytics will be more important than ever as teams will identify which opposition players tire when asked to do longer stints etc. and which types of moves are more likely to succeed at certain times of the match.

    I also hope we've investigated the pros and cons of 2 carry sets from Walmsley in terms of metres gained, especially as it won't be as easy to bring him off and on again so much. Do we gain more metres per set from a 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2 (12 carries over 7 sets) and 2 sets without Walmsley or a 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2 (13 carries over 9 sets)? Is the fatigue the same from both efforts (second option is a longer stint with 1 more carry and more defensive work but only 2 of the punishing double carry sets in the first 7 rather than 5 in the first scenario).

    Cliff notes: 8 interchanges will mean props doing longer stints, impact type props like Walmsley mean 1 sub becomes injury/game out of hand replacement, need to assess impact of 2 carry sets, will have to be creative with Roby's minutes.
    I think we're very well suited to the new changes to be honest. Knowles playing 9 as well as the 3 back row positions is handy. Allows you to leave out a natural 9 of the bench and go with 2 middles and a back row or similar. We have plenty of forwards who do big minutes anyway, Thompson and Amor prime examples.

    Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

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    I would expect our lineup up be;
    Coote, Makinson, Naiqama, Percy, Grace, Lomax, Richardson/Fages
    Walmsley, Roby, Thompson, Peyroux, Taia, Knowles

    Bench: Paulo, Douglas, Lees, LMS

    Don't see how we could accommodate Richardson or Fages out of those who miss out from the starting 13

    Walmsley will probably take 3 subs, (off, on, off again)
    Thompson 2, (off and back on)
    Roby 2 (with Knowles going to hooker) for a spell
    Which leaves one more in the forwards

    Or something like that

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    Gees, reckon you could beat Boris Spasky at chess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1987 View Post
    This is going to be a bit unstructured so apologies.

    With the number of interchanges being reduced all teams will have tough decisions to make. For example the interchange hooker using 2 of the 8 interchanges will be tough to justify. In fact the only way it can really work without hurting your prop rotation is for a player to play 40 mins at 13 and 20 at 9 while your starting hooker rests.

    I was working through the permutations and think that in effect Saints will have 3 subs taking up 7 interchanges and then a 4th player as an injury replacement. With the head injury assessments some teams could carry a 4th forward and try to game the system to get back up to 10 interchanges (hopefully the RFL are wise to this possibility).

    Here's what i had for Saints for the big games:

    1 backrow playing 80 mins (think it's best to rotate rather than run Taia into the ground)
    1 playing 0-25 and 55-80
    1 playing 0-55
    1 playing 25-80

    That's 2 interchanges.

    I assume the 4 first choice players will be Taia, Peyroux (can cover centre), Knowles (can cover hooker) and Paulo (can cover halves). We'll have 2 props on the bench but i'm not sure who will be the 4th sub. Due to the 8 interchanges it will be difficult to use them assuming a normal prop rotation.

    I agree with a post from a while ago that Walmsley should start in order to maximise his run-outs.

    Let's say he plays 0-15, 30-50 and 70-80, that way you get 4 spells from him due to the half time break.

    You need the other starter (i'd use Thompson) to go longer to open, so 0-25 and 50-70.

    One sub to do 15-50 (Lees) and the other to do 25 to 70 (LMS).

    That's 5 interchanges and 7 total (final interchange in case of injury or to take off Roby when the game is decided, in latter case Lees would play last 10 instead of Walmsley). Obviously this is plan A and within a game things can change (plus the timings won't be exact).

    Then have Douglas and Ashworth rotating in to keep everyone fresh (i don't see a place for Amor without injuries). This will be essential with the required longer stints and ideally Walmsley plays 3 games out of every 4. Some people may think this is too few games but remember that really everything rests on 2 games at the end of the season plus the Challenge Cup.

    It may also be easier to keep Roby fresh by resting him against the bottom teams in addition to taking him off once other games are beyond doubt. Another option is if Roby started from the bench then you could reduce the hooker position to 1 interchange, with the other alternative being for Knowles to do a stint at 9 in the middle period (don't think him starting at hooker would be a good idea). The prop rotation could also be altered when Walmsley is rotated which would mean cover for Roby on the bench would be easier to manage.

    I think managing the interchanges will be a key aspect this season and hopefully Saints have done the necessary research in order to maximise performance. Analytics will be more important than ever as teams will identify which opposition players tire when asked to do longer stints etc. and which types of moves are more likely to succeed at certain times of the match.

    I also hope we've investigated the pros and cons of 2 carry sets from Walmsley in terms of metres gained, especially as it won't be as easy to bring him off and on again so much. Do we gain more metres per set from a 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2 (12 carries over 7 sets) and 2 sets without Walmsley or a 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2 (13 carries over 9 sets)? Is the fatigue the same from both efforts (second option is a longer stint with 1 more carry and more defensive work but only 2 of the punishing double carry sets in the first 7 rather than 5 in the first scenario).

    Cliff notes: 8 interchanges will mean props doing longer stints, impact type props like Walmsley mean 1 sub becomes injury/game out of hand replacement, need to assess impact of 2 carry sets, will have to be creative with Roby's minutes.
    A very instructural post, I would not fancy my chances playing you at chess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1987 View Post
    This is going to be a bit unstructured so apologies.

    With the number of interchanges being reduced all teams will have tough decisions to make. For example the interchange hooker using 2 of the 8 interchanges will be tough to justify. In fact the only way it can really work without hurting your prop rotation is for a player to play 40 mins at 13 and 20 at 9 while your starting hooker rests.

    I was working through the permutations and think that in effect Saints will have 3 subs taking up 7 interchanges and then a 4th player as an injury replacement. With the head injury assessments some teams could carry a 4th forward and try to game the system to get back up to 10 interchanges (hopefully the RFL are wise to this possibility).

    Here's what i had for Saints for the big games:

    1 backrow playing 80 mins (think it's best to rotate rather than run Taia into the ground)
    1 playing 0-25 and 55-80
    1 playing 0-55
    1 playing 25-80

    That's 2 interchanges.

    I assume the 4 first choice players will be Taia, Peyroux (can cover centre), Knowles (can cover hooker) and Paulo (can cover halves). We'll have 2 props on the bench but i'm not sure who will be the 4th sub. Due to the 8 interchanges it will be difficult to use them assuming a normal prop rotation.

    I agree with a post from a while ago that Walmsley should start in order to maximise his run-outs.

    Let's say he plays 0-15, 30-50 and 70-80, that way you get 4 spells from him due to the half time break.

    You need the other starter (i'd use Thompson) to go longer to open, so 0-25 and 50-70.

    One sub to do 15-50 (Lees) and the other to do 25 to 70 (LMS).

    That's 5 interchanges and 7 total (final interchange in case of injury or to take off Roby when the game is decided, in latter case Lees would play last 10 instead of Walmsley). Obviously this is plan A and within a game things can change (plus the timings won't be exact).

    Then have Douglas and Ashworth rotating in to keep everyone fresh (i don't see a place for Amor without injuries). This will be essential with the required longer stints and ideally Walmsley plays 3 games out of every 4. Some people may think this is too few games but remember that really everything rests on 2 games at the end of the season plus the Challenge Cup.

    It may also be easier to keep Roby fresh by resting him against the bottom teams in addition to taking him off once other games are beyond doubt. Another option is if Roby started from the bench then you could reduce the hooker position to 1 interchange, with the other alternative being for Knowles to do a stint at 9 in the middle period (don't think him starting at hooker would be a good idea). The prop rotation could also be altered when Walmsley is rotated which would mean cover for Roby on the bench would be easier to manage.

    I think managing the interchanges will be a key aspect this season and hopefully Saints have done the necessary research in order to maximise performance. Analytics will be more important than ever as teams will identify which opposition players tire when asked to do longer stints etc. and which types of moves are more likely to succeed at certain times of the match.

    I also hope we've investigated the pros and cons of 2 carry sets from Walmsley in terms of metres gained, especially as it won't be as easy to bring him off and on again so much. Do we gain more metres per set from a 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2 (12 carries over 7 sets) and 2 sets without Walmsley or a 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2 (13 carries over 9 sets)? Is the fatigue the same from both efforts (second option is a longer stint with 1 more carry and more defensive work but only 2 of the punishing double carry sets in the first 7 rather than 5 in the first scenario).

    Cliff notes: 8 interchanges will mean props doing longer stints, impact type props like Walmsley mean 1 sub becomes injury/game out of hand replacement, need to assess impact of 2 carry sets, will have to be creative with Roby's minutes.
    ERMmmmmm,













    Well, do you play chess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1987 View Post
    This is going to be a bit unstructured so apologies.

    With the number of interchanges being reduced all teams will have tough decisions to make. For example the interchange hooker using 2 of the 8 interchanges will be tough to justify. In fact the only way it can really work without hurting your prop rotation is for a player to play 40 mins at 13 and 20 at 9 while your starting hooker rests.

    I was working through the permutations and think that in effect Saints will have 3 subs taking up 7 interchanges and then a 4th player as an injury replacement. With the head injury assessments some teams could carry a 4th forward and try to game the system to get back up to 10 interchanges (hopefully the RFL are wise to this possibility).

    Here's what i had for Saints for the big games:

    1 backrow playing 80 mins (think it's best to rotate rather than run Taia into the ground)
    1 playing 0-25 and 55-80
    1 playing 0-55
    1 playing 25-80

    That's 2 interchanges.

    I assume the 4 first choice players will be Taia, Peyroux (can cover centre), Knowles (can cover hooker) and Paulo (can cover halves). We'll have 2 props on the bench but i'm not sure who will be the 4th sub. Due to the 8 interchanges it will be difficult to use them assuming a normal prop rotation.

    I agree with a post from a while ago that Walmsley should start in order to maximise his run-outs.

    Let's say he plays 0-15, 30-50 and 70-80, that way you get 4 spells from him due to the half time break.

    You need the other starter (i'd use Thompson) to go longer to open, so 0-25 and 50-70.

    One sub to do 15-50 (Lees) and the other to do 25 to 70 (LMS).

    That's 5 interchanges and 7 total (final interchange in case of injury or to take off Roby when the game is decided, in latter case Lees would play last 10 instead of Walmsley). Obviously this is plan A and within a game things can change (plus the timings won't be exact).

    Then have Douglas and Ashworth rotating in to keep everyone fresh (i don't see a place for Amor without injuries). This will be essential with the required longer stints and ideally Walmsley plays 3 games out of every 4. Some people may think this is too few games but remember that really everything rests on 2 games at the end of the season plus the Challenge Cup.

    It may also be easier to keep Roby fresh by resting him against the bottom teams in addition to taking him off once other games are beyond doubt. Another option is if Roby started from the bench then you could reduce the hooker position to 1 interchange, with the other alternative being for Knowles to do a stint at 9 in the middle period (don't think him starting at hooker would be a good idea). The prop rotation could also be altered when Walmsley is rotated which would mean cover for Roby on the bench would be easier to manage.

    I think managing the interchanges will be a key aspect this season and hopefully Saints have done the necessary research in order to maximise performance. Analytics will be more important than ever as teams will identify which opposition players tire when asked to do longer stints etc. and which types of moves are more likely to succeed at certain times of the match.

    I also hope we've investigated the pros and cons of 2 carry sets from Walmsley in terms of metres gained, especially as it won't be as easy to bring him off and on again so much. Do we gain more metres per set from a 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2 (12 carries over 7 sets) and 2 sets without Walmsley or a 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2 (13 carries over 9 sets)? Is the fatigue the same from both efforts (second option is a longer stint with 1 more carry and more defensive work but only 2 of the punishing double carry sets in the first 7 rather than 5 in the first scenario).

    Cliff notes: 8 interchanges will mean props doing longer stints, impact type props like Walmsley mean 1 sub becomes injury/game out of hand replacement, need to assess impact of 2 carry sets, will have to be creative with Roby's minutes.
    I admire your efforts and attention to detail but fear you may be overthinking it a little

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    Can you just do the headline figures next time

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    In its simplest form, on the bench you need 1 player who can play in the pack and in the backs (eg Fages), 1 player who can do longer minutes (eg Douglas, Knowles, Thompson), 2 players for impact (Walmsley, Lees, Ashworth, Peyroux).

    For Walmsley I think he would be happy with the new ruling quite a few games he would look frustrated having to be taken off when he's just about getting into his stride, he should be capable of an extra 5 minutes in each stint.

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    @ep1987 - I’d always believed that defensive efforts were more tiring than taking the ball up so I think you also need to consider issues such as reliance on 2 v 3 players in the tackle, factoring in that the latter takes 50% more all round effort but results in fewer offloads thereby reducing the need for follow-up tacklers to become involved and expend energy accordingly. Defensive alignment also has an impact on the number of times individuals have to commit to the tackle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    @ep1987 - I’d always believed that defensive efforts were more tiring than taking the ball up so I think you also need to consider issues such as reliance on 2 v 3 players in the tackle, factoring in that the latter takes 50% more all round effort but results in fewer offloads thereby reducing the need for follow-up tacklers to become involved and expend energy accordingly. Defensive alignment also has an impact on the number of times individuals have to commit to the tackle.
    Defending is much more tiring, some forwards build their game on defence pretty much and offer little on the way of carries, often the outside backs make more yards

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    Not a chess player ;-)

    I just think that the teams that manage the reduction in interchanges the best will have an advantage. 10 down to 8 may seem like a small reduction but imagine a 20% cut to your household income. This would have an outsize effect on your spending power due to fixed costs such as rent/mortgage (the RL equivalent would be that prop rotation is necessary). You may even have to cut out a significant expense like running a car (the interchange hooker).

    To address the point about 3 man tackles i'd say that the fatigue accumulated is less than 150% (less effort expended by each individual) and the consequence of offloads is not only another tackle/collision but more metres gained by your opponent, an increased chance at a repeat set due to the improved field position (hence also less chance of you forcing a repeat set next time) as well as a greater chance of scoring a try. What should be researched is which opponents hardly ever offload; when they carry the ball you can commit 2 tacklers in this knowledge, save some fatigue and also have a better set defence for the next tackle.

    One example of how the reduction in interchanges will have knock-on effects (not just literally, wonder if the RFL have considered this aspect) is to look at Knowles doing a spell at hooker. Not only do Saints have to think about when the best time to rest Roby is, they also have to be cogizant of the fatigue Knowles has accumulated at that point and factor in that they want to use their interchanges as efficiently as possible. It's probably sub-optimal for Knowles to spell Roby for the 30-50 minute period and also start the game for example as he'd have done a tonne of work in those first 30 minutes.

    Continuing with Knowles, the type of player that teams deploy at 13 will be very interesting. A de facto 3rd prop means that tackle 2 to 4 carries can be distributed more evenly with 3 strong middle runners on the pitch at the same time but this then puts more stress on your interchanges. A more well rounded 13 who can play all 80 minutes will mean that your props can do shorter stints but will be working harder. A player who can also do a spell at 9 saves you an interchange as well as allowing you to carry another player on the bench in lieu of a second hooker. Saints should be analyzing which approach is more effective.

    Specifically for Roby/Knowles i think that there are essentially 2 options: Rest Roby from 30-50 and play Knowles 30-80 with 20 minutes at 9 and one backrow coming off after playing the first 50 (with Coote taking up a few dummy half carries early in sets against tiring defences late in the 1st half) or rest Roby 50-65 and have Knowles play the first 25/30 minutes and the last 30. In games without Walmsley (or if he proves capable of longer stints of which i'm doubtful) then an interchange hooker becomes more viable and in the very biggest games (which you could essentially argue are just the playoffs and semis/final of CC) i think we may still ask Roby to do the full 80 (hopefully after a week off).

    Another thing to consider is that if the players are aware of the planned substitution patterns then they can adjust their number of first receiver carries accordingly (double carry towards end of stint). Teams that have contingencies in place for injuries will also fare better as they will be able to adjust and avoid a situation where an extremely tired player has to stay on. This can be done by planning for every eventuality (i'd say all combinations of 2 injured players and 3 injured forwards should be covered), adjusting the substitution patterns and communicating any change in minutes required to the players on the pitch. Plus warm-ups and warm-downs can be planned better which will reduce soft tissue injuries.

    With Holbrook coming from Australia where analytics and sports science are more prominent in RL Saints will have an advantage in adapting to the new rules.

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    It will be interesting the see how we use Walmsley. Holbrook needs to time it right so he can cause maximum carnage.

    Our pack is pretty mobile so I expect we will cope with the changes better than most.


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    Default Team/Bench with 8 interchanges

    I think the reduction will suit us. Walmsley is probably best kept to 20 minute stints, but I suspect that Thompson, Amor and Douglas (not sure on Lees/Ashworth) can all do 30-40 minutes a time. With two props in the 17 who can play longer minutes the rest of your rotation could stay more or less the same, I would have thought. It is teams who have two or three ‘impact’ style props who are likely to suffer.

    I agree that the loose forward position will be an interesting one to watch. I’d imagine we’ll see a return to 13s who are robust, fit and durable rather than props in all but name.

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