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Thread: Jack Welsby

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    Already attracting attention from the NRL, according to the mole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    You said ‘hoping’. I’m just not sure why a Saints fan would hope an England International loses form so that we can pick someone else. Surely we want our best players, or all our players really, to play as well as possible for as long as possible?

    I hope Welsby takes Lomax's place

    Not because Lomax loses form, but because Welsby becomes so brilliant, he surpasses Lomax in terms of ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I hope Welsby takes Lomax's place

    Not because Lomax loses form, but because Welsby becomes so brilliant, he surpasses Lomax in terms of ability.
    Isn't that how all players should get there spot? Being better than the current player

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Isn't that how all players should get there spot? Being better than the current player
    Yes.

    But they can become better than the other player by a) themselves improving; or b) the other player becoming worse/losing form

    I was responding to Tez, who seemed to be insinuating that Welsby could only become better than Lomax if Lomax lost form.

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    Putting my England hat on it would actually be great for Welsby (and the two Wigan players named by the Mole) to make a move over to the NRL this early in their careers. Even if they return early they will be better players for it.

    We need to produce some world class British half backs if we ever want to overtake the Aussies. If this is what needs to happen, it will happen at the expense of ourselves and Wigan.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Yes.

    But they can become better than the other player by a) themselves improving; or b) the other player becoming worse/losing form

    I was responding to Tez, who seemed to be insinuating that Welsby could only become better than Lomax if Lomax lost form.
    Most super league clubs don't give the very promising young players a good transition and exposure to top level game time, I'm hoping Welsby will be on a similar exposure similar to Matty Lees as last season. Holbrook showed faith in him and gave him game time over Amor and now he looks a player that is ready for long spells in the first 17.

    For next season Holbrook might think of a bit more with rotation and give Welsby a few games to rest Lomax and extend Jonny's shelf life in the process. Would be great if we can have a performance progressed Richardson and Welsby as our half backs for the next future decade.
    Last edited by STIDDY; 20th December 2018 at 16:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Most super league clubs don't give the very promising young players a good transition and exposure to top level game time, I'm hoping Welsby will be on a similar exposure similar to Matty Lees as last season. Holbrook showed faith in him and gave him game time over Amor and now he looks a player that is ready for long spells in the first 17.

    For next season Holbrook might think of a bit more with rotation and give Welsby a few games to rest Lomax and extend Jonny's shelf life in the process. Would be great if we can have a performance progressed Richardson and Welsby as our half backs for the next future decade.

    I think it's too early for him, transition shouldn't be to early or to late, for me I would expect little game time for 12-18months at least, slowly increasing. I fear the expectation on here is already to much for a very young player who has shown promise, as have others

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I think it's too early for him, transition shouldn't be to early or to late, for me I would expect little game time for 12-18months at least, slowly increasing. I fear the expectation on here is already to much for a very young player who has shown promise, as have others
    If the player is good enough he is old enough. In the past there have been numerous teenagers who cemented their position in the first team based on their ability. Those players did not need molly codling until their early 20's a certain Alexander James Murphy immediately springs to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I think it's too early for him, transition shouldn't be to early or to late, for me I would expect little game time for 12-18months at least, slowly increasing. I fear the expectation on here is already to much for a very young player who has shown promise, as have others
    I just get the feeling that Holbrook is seeing him as a challenger for the half back position in 2020 and will give him a couple of games next season, if he comes up with some good performances and looks a better option than Fages then I don't think his age will be a factor.

    We have had plenty of very young players in the team who have been a success, Gary Connolly was put in the deep end and received the 27-0 baptism of fire, it didn't destroy his temperament and ambition, I,m just hoping that Welsby is that type of player who doesn't want to be wrapped up in cotton wool,

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    If the player is good enough he is old enough. In the past there have been numerous teenagers who cemented their position in the first team based on their ability. Those players did not need molly codling until their early 20's a certain Alexander James Murphy immediately springs to mind.
    I agree 100%. From recent history, It's Kalyn Ponga who springs to my mind- it was obvious he was going to be a star since his debut in the NRL a couple years ago as an 18 year old.

    Now I haven't seen Welsby play so I'm not comparing him to Ponga, but he should be given the opportunity to prove himself. Especially with Saints not bringing in another half to replace Matty Smith. He can play full back as well can't he? I'm sure that's where he lined up for England's academy side.

    Regards,

    STEVO

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    If the player is good enough he is old enough. In the past there have been numerous teenagers who cemented their position in the first team based on their ability. Those players did not need molly codling until their early 20's a certain Alexander James Murphy immediately springs to mind.
    Just because some were ready doesn't mean they all are. There is a huge jump from 19s to super league, some young kids does well and people want him straight in without proving himself!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Putting my England hat on it would actually be great for Welsby (and the two Wigan players named by the Mole) to make a move over to the NRL this early in their careers. Even if they return early they will be better players for it.

    We need to produce some world class British half backs if we ever want to overtake the Aussies. If this is what needs to happen, it will happen at the expense of ourselves and Wigan.
    Does anybody know how the youngster who went to Brisbane from Wigan is getting on? I remember reading about it a year or so ago. Herbie Farnworth his name is.

    Regards,

    STEVO

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    If the player is good enough he is old enough. In the past there have been numerous teenagers who cemented their position in the first team based on their ability. Those players did not need molly codling until their early 20's a certain Alexander James Murphy immediately springs to mind.
    Different game now though. A 16 year old coming up against seasoned full time pros is harder than coming up against a load of semi pros like in Murphy's day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    Different game now though. A 16 year old coming up against seasoned full time pros is harder than coming up against a load of semi pros like in Murphy's day.




    Let’s not forget that Murphy was also a semi pro as well. It would be impossible to compare Welsby with Murph, totally different era, vastly different game in those days
    ,just the one league of 32 teams ( correct me if I’m wrong) there were lots of easier games that a rookie could be tried out in. There are no easy games these days. I’m sure Welsby will get game time, I’m also sure that Holbrook won’t rush him into it.
    Ps. Murphy had the best minder in the game and that helped his development a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wirefox View Post
    Let’s not forget that Murphy was also a semi pro as well. It would be impossible to compare Welsby with Murph, totally different era, vastly different game in those days
    ,just the one league of 32 teams ( correct me if I’m wrong) there were lots of easier games that a rookie could be tried out in. There are no easy games these days. I’m sure Welsby will get game time, I’m also sure that Holbrook won’t rush him into it.
    Ps. Murphy had the best minder in the game and that helped his development a lot.
    The mental and physical structure in todays game is so much different now in that its more monitored and managed, the younger players get very much involved in the first team build up and game planning. Murphy was a bit of a freak had the physical and mental maturity at 16 and it was his confidence (I'm Ready) that created his demand to play for the first team, the A team was a weekly occurrence then but todays Reserve games are not much use anymore.

    With Welsby its possible we have a star in the making, he has been pretty much outstanding in all the stages of his development via Blackbrook, Scholarship, Academy and Academy International and the one 15 min Superleague appearance. I don't think age is a factor here its more about keeping him on that steeper learning curve and to do that you have to give him opportunities, when he gets that opportunity the club needs to give him game protection like we did in the "old school" era, a la Karalius the protector. We are pretty poor in this department, if you remember Bailey was hung out to dry and his confidence was shot to pieces, similar with Gaskell, Grace and more so Richardson last season became the main target and got no protection, so if Welsby gets a game we need to ensure that we don't get the same scenario.

    For me I would have a few candidates in Peyroux and LMS quick enough and experienced to be a shield to give that young player that extra couple of seconds to perform with less pressure, otherwise the player is going to be treading water in the deep end.

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    Welsby will turn 18 this coming season, and plenty of players have begun first team careers at 18. Some far more recent Saints legends began their first team club careers at 18/19 (whether here or at other clubs) such as Cunningham (18), Long (18), Joynt (18), Graham (18), Sculthorpe (19), Roby (19)

    What he and countless other developing players would hugely benefit from is a reserve league, where a mix of developing youngsters, experienced fringe players and players returning from injury would create a great stepping stone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post
    Does anybody know how the youngster who went to Brisbane from Wigan is getting on? I remember reading about it a year or so ago. Herbie Farnworth his name is.

    Regards,

    STEVO
    He's doing very well, he was back over here a short while ago and met up with a few people. I saw a photo of him with Callum Green who plays in the Wigan academy. There was some very good footage of him playing for Brisbane last season, definitely one to keep an eye out for.
    Last edited by Rogues Gallery; 21st December 2018 at 10:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Just because some were ready doesn't mean they all are. There is a huge jump from 19s to super league, some young kids does well and people want him straight in without proving himself!
    To be honest the only way to prove oneself is to get out there and do it.

    The point I am trying to make is, why hold back a player who has the potential to improve the team just because they have not turned 21 or whatever.
    I was privileged to play alongside such a talent. I was at his house when he signed pro on his 16th birthday. 12 months later he was a regular first team player and an international before he turned 20. He had the x factor that was plain to see. If Welesby has the same I for one want to see him turning it on for the Saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    To be honest the only way to prove oneself is to get out there and do it.

    The point I am trying to make is, why hold back a player who has the potential to improve the team just because they have not turned 21 or whatever.
    I was privileged to play alongside such a talent. I was at his house when he signed pro on his 16th birthday. 12 months later he was a regular first team player and an international before he turned 20. He had the x factor that was plain to see. If Welesby has the same I for one want to see him turning it on for the Saints.
    You said 'if', have you seen him play? He has barely started with the 19s give him a break. Super league is so big and fast now it would be crazy to throw someone in just to see if they can do it, talent must be looked after, he is in good hands and the club know what they are doing. Gladly they don't let posters on forums who don't know the player as well as they do dictate when he should play

    There are other very promising players, he is one of a great bunch of youngsters, they are all being looked after and will progress at different stages, let them come through naturally, not throw em in and see if they can do it

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    If you look back at this thread you'll see than that I was concerned about the younger players already being scouted. I wouldn't name names then but the one of the Wigan players was Ryan Sutton and he had been on the Aussies radar for three years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    The mental and physical structure in todays game is so much different now in that its more monitored and managed, the younger players get very much involved in the first team build up and game planning. Murphy was a bit of a freak had the physical and mental maturity at 16 and it was his confidence (I'm Ready) that created his demand to play for the first team, the A team was a weekly occurrence then but todays Reserve games are not much use anymore.

    With Welsby its possible we have a star in the making, he has been pretty much outstanding in all the stages of his development via Blackbrook, Scholarship, Academy and Academy International and the one 15 min Superleague appearance. I don't think age is a factor here its more about keeping him on that steeper learning curve and to do that you have to give him opportunities, when he gets that opportunity the club needs to give him game protection like we did in the "old school" era, a la Karalius the protector. We are pretty poor in this department, if you remember Bailey was hung out to dry and his confidence was shot to pieces, similar with Gaskell, Grace and more so Richardson last season became the main target and got no protection, so if Welsby gets a game we need to ensure that we don't get the same scenario.

    For me I would have a few candidates in Peyroux and LMS quick enough and experienced to be a shield to give that young player that extra couple of seconds to perform with less pressure, otherwise the player is going to be treading water in the deep end.
    Some excellent points here

    1. The game is different
    2. Players get more prep with the first team, training with them for months maybe years before meaningful minutes in the first team
    3. Confidence can be shot in an instant, Connolly had a terrible start, it's testament to his character that he came through it despite his bad start not because of it. No manager would want to expose a kid like that if they can help it
    4. It also depends on who else is in the team, if a young player can be hidden in defence etc, all plays a factor

    I'm sure he will get minutes next year, but is well off regular place imo and thinking he should be is unfair to the kid, give him time and space to develop under fans support rather than expectation
    Last edited by Upside; 21st December 2018 at 17:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Some excellent points here

    1. The game is different
    2. Players get more prep with the first team, training with them for months maybe years before meaningful minutes in the first team
    3. Confidence can be shot in an instant, Connely had a terrible start, it's testament to his character that he came through it despite his bad start not because of it. No manager would want to expose a kid like that if they can help it
    4. It also depends on who else is in the team, if a young player can be hidden in defence etc, all plays a factor

    I'm sure he will get minutes next year, but is well off regular place imo and thinking he should be is unfair to the kid, give him time and space to develop under fans support rather than expectation
    :

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    If you look back at this thread you'll see than that I was concerned about the younger players already being scouted. I wouldn't name names then but the one of the Wigan players was Ryan Sutton and he had been on the Aussies radar for three years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    You said 'if', have you seen him play? He has barely started with the 19s give him a break. Super league is so big and fast now it would be crazy to throw someone in just to see if they can do it, talent must be looked after, he is in good hands and the club know what they are doing. Gladly they don't let posters on forums who don't know the player as well as they do dictate when he should play

    There are other very promising players, he is one of a great bunch of youngsters, they are all being looked after and will progress at different stages, let them come through naturally, not throw em in and see if they can do it
    Your trying to make out I am banging the lad, far from it. I am saying if he is good enough he is old enough. If you are saying he is not yet good enough so be it.

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