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Thread: Ryan Morgan

  1. #51
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    For me Morgan is a really good player for us. Ok like a few last night it was not his best, but overall his performances under JH have been v good. He scores tries and we seem to forget he has because in the same game Ben or someone else has scored a highlight reel try. He does his stuff quietly. If /when he goes I for o e will misss him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Perhaps he couldn’t move any faster as he had been limping before that run. It was a further knock at the end of the movement that forced him to be substituted eventually, indeed Holbrook admitted that they should probably have taken him off at half time.

    Yes fair point I've slipped up. I thought it was a knock he got 2nd half. My fault

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post
    In the words of John McEnroe, "you can not be serious man"!
    I was but I was wrong. Apologies

  4. #54
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    Ryan Morgan made a mistake which cost us a try Percy gave him an unexpected/hospital pass with the defence hunting on our line, if the pass had stuck to TM it would have been a try, if he did not pass he was perhaps being bundled over our line for a drop out. I would sooner see Saints try that, than each player scoot from the play of the ball, concede to dominant tackles and try to find the floor, either trying for a penalty or chase a short punt downfield and defend there. We were ahead at the time the conditions should have been in our favour it is the rugby almost everyone last year called for, as it was it turned into a battle but a very entertaining one benefitted by each sides mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eclipse View Post
    A less than average player who occasionally has a decent game.
    I think if you flip that on its head you’ve got it about right: an above average player who occasionally has a poor game.

  6. #56
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    He still doesn't convince me. He shot out of his line three times in the first half and was lucky to get away with it. He didn't get away with his daft pass, but such incidents are hardly typical and not worthy of analysis.

    What concerns me is that his winger is dying a death outside him. It's fair to say that we don't move the ball right as we often move it left, but Morgan has scored a few tries, so he's not that starved of possession. However, unlike Percival who knows how to run the line, arc through and make space, Morgan has an inability to create an overlap for his winger. Percy (wrongfully) gets stick for this but Grace is receiving a hell of a lot of ball, whereas Tommy receives virtually nothing.

    It's going to be interesting to see if things change when Morgan has gone, then we'll see whether he was the problem or we are the problem, in terms of our inability to get the right winger into the game.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Steps 1 to 6 Non-League Football

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    He still doesn't convince me. He shot out of his line three times in the first half and was lucky to get away with it. He didn't get away with his daft pass, but such incidents are hardly typical and not worthy of analysis.

    What concerns me is that his winger is dying a death outside him. It's fair to say that we don't move the ball right as we often move it left, but Morgan has scored a few tries, so he's not that starved of possession. However, unlike Percival who knows how to run the line, arc through and make space, Morgan has an inability to create an overlap for his winger. Percy (wrongfully) gets stick for this but Grace is receiving a hell of a lot of ball, whereas Tommy receives virtually nothing.

    It's going to be interesting to see if things change when Morgan has gone, then we'll see whether he was the problem or we are the problem, in terms of our inability to get the right winger into the game.
    A lot of the problem is not Morgan, he is in a similar way how we made a starvation mess with Shenton. Also Percival and Morgan are two completely different runners, Percival crabs across the field half the time looking for gaps and he is pretty good at it, Morgan is more direct and as a result the channel is a narrow one for Makinson to have options. Morgan and Makinson get more space when Barba comes into the line but he's been fairly quietly lately and gone off the boil the past few games.

    Defence wise, he needs to read the game a bit better position wise, once he's on his man he is usually OK.

  8. #58
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    He’s had a decent season on the whole but he has too many stupid mistakes in him and if Jon Wells is right (I’d imagine he is) then that confirms Naiqama has been signed to play centre with Morgan leaving and I’m not bothered about Morgan leaving at all. He’s a slightly above average player who will do a job but makes mistakes and cost us a grand final appearance. Also pleased that Naiqama won’t be playing full back as well.

  9. #59
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    Not sure where or how often he would play if we had Barba and Naiqama I think he is a decent but not flashy centre. He makes mistakes and seem to get crucified every time he does. When he gave the interception last night I thought part of it was the way Percy moved the ball to him with the attack on us. However if Morgan's pass had come off we would have all been ecstatic with a length of the field try.

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    [QUOTE=DD;735376]He still doesn't convince me. He shot out of his line three times in the first half and was lucky to get away with it. He didn't get away with his daft pass, but such incidents are hardly typical and not worthy of analysis.

    What concerns me is that his winger is dying a death outside him. It's fair to say that we don't move the ball right as we often move it left, but Morgan has scored a few tries, so he's not that starved of possession. However, unlike Percival who knows how to run the line, arc through and make space, Morgan has an inability to create an overlap for his winger. Percy (wrongfully) gets stick for this but Grace is receiving a hell of a lot of ball, whereas Tommy receives virtually nothing.

    It's going to be interesting to see if things change when Morgan has gone, then we'll see whether he was the problem or we are the problem, in terms of our inability to get the right winger into the game.[/QUOT

    To me Ryan Morgan is more of a wingers centre that Percy, with Regan`s second try last night Percy took it 10m too far and the cover could get back, Regan was jogging beside Percy if the ball had been passed immediately Regan would have out stripped the covering defence. He still scored but the defence were up on him with the touchline as another defender therefore he had to cut inside and step but an earlier pass would have been a footrace Regan wins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    To me Ryan Morgan is more of a wingers centre that Percy, with Regan`s second try last night Percy took it 10m too far and the cover could get back, Regan was jogging beside Percy if the ball had been passed immediately Regan would have out stripped the covering defence. He still scored but the defence were up on him with the touchline as another defender therefore he had to cut inside and step but an earlier pass would have been a footrace Regan wins.
    The repeated bashing of Percival (wrongly) aside, when was the last time Morgan drew the last man and passed to give TMak a walk in?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    The repeated bashing of Percival (wrongly) aside, when was the last time Morgan drew the last man and passed to give TMak a walk in?
    Percival has sorted that side of his game this year and is developing into a true international class centre. Over the next few years we’ll be putting him in the top 5 centres to pull on the shirt.

    Morgan is just average. Why people kid themselves otherwise I don’t know. Competent and no more

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    The repeated bashing of Percival (wrongly) aside, when was the last time Morgan drew the last man and passed to give TMak a walk in?
    That doesn't happen very much because he has a lot less ball than Percival. On carries Percival 254 Morgan 114, for tries/carry ratio Morgan is better than Grace, Percival and Lomax, however his try assists is one of the lowest in the team because he can't create space like Percival, Lomax and Barba..

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    That doesn't happen very much because he has a lot less ball than Percival. On carries Percival 254 Morgan 114, for tries/carry ratio Morgan is better than Grace, Percival and Lomax, however his try assists is one of the lowest in the team because he can't create space like Percival, Lomax and Barba..
    There’s a difference between happens far less and doesn’t happen at all though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post

    To me Ryan Morgan is more of a wingers centre that Percy, with Regan`s second try last night Percy took it 10m too far and the cover could get back, Regan was jogging beside Percy if the ball had been passed immediately Regan would have out stripped the covering defence. He still scored but the defence were up on him with the touchline as another defender therefore he had to cut inside and step but an earlier pass would have been a footrace Regan wins.
    Really? Percival has 11 assists, Morgan 2. At Cas in the semi final, Morgan blew a certain try by passing too early and not drawing Milner in when we had a clear 2 on 1. It’s a myth that Percival isn’t a wingers centre, he gives Grace plenty of ball. Percival didn’t take it too far at all, the defence still would have got across to Grace even if he did pass 10m earlier. Percival is far better than Morgan in every aspect and by a distance as well. Morgan does a job but is just above average which is why it looks like he’ll be gone at the end of the season.

  16. #66
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    Mark Percival is a world class centre, I am not and have never knocked him. Ryan Morgan is more than a bang average centre. Both are human and make mistakes. Comparisons between the two are impossible, the stats say Morgan is a better finisher on carries/tries ratio, I personally would say Percy not only finishes better but also creates more out of nothing.
    That said Morgan is a good player and does well with limited service, I do not know how anyone can say he is average/competent.
    SaintH517 Grace still scored even with the defence on top of him, in my opinion Percy carried the ball 10-15M too long allowing the cover to gain ground. This is not knocking Percy just an observation. Would have loved to see if Johnston could have got to Regan on the diagonal if Regan got the ball early, chaser being quicker without ball in hand and all that.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Mark Percival is a world class centre, I am not and have never knocked him. Ryan Morgan is more than a bang average centre. Both are human and make mistakes. Comparisons between the two are impossible, the stats say Morgan is a better finisher on carries/tries ratio, I personally would say Percy not only finishes better but also creates more out of nothing.
    That said Morgan is a good player and does well with limited service, I do not know how anyone can say he is average/competent.
    SaintH517 Grace still scored even with the defence on top of him, in my opinion Percy carried the ball 10-15M too long allowing the cover to gain ground. This is not knocking Percy just an observation. Would have loved to see if Johnston could have got to Regan on the diagonal if Regan got the ball early, chaser being quicker without ball in hand and all that.
    The carries/ tries ratio is a completely pointless stat - Percival does far more work at the wrong end of the pitch helping the team out with the hard carries - he does more to seek out the work than Morgan imo.

    You said Morgan was more of a wingers centre than Percival - the stats don’t back that up with him only having 2 assists all year, and has never once handed his winger a stroll in. He doesn’t create opportunity in the same way as Percival does, and lacks basic game sense. Every player is taught from the age of 5 when the last man puts himself between you and your support you dummy first to make him jump the line - Morgan didn’t do this and it gifted Wakefield their first try. He has a nice deceptive running style that makes use of the space others like Barba can create for him, but he’s not quick enough to get free from the retreating defence to set Makinson away or strong enough to get over the covering defence. He’s not particularly strong in the tackle. What attributes does he have which is above average?

    That’s not to say he doesn’t do the job we need him to this year, but it also means that we shouldn’t be striving for better.

    I’m not sure why Graces second try keeps getting brought up as an example of bad centre play for Percival? It’s well known Graces main attribute is acceleration rather than raw speed and was relatively easily caught in cover in the first half too when he was released. Percival kept hold of it for as long as possible to stop he defence shifting over. Passing earlier would of led to Grace being tackled.

  18. #68
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    Ive said before i think Morgan is average and that he will eventually cost us in a big game. To his credit he’s been playing well since Easter but it helps that we’re top of the league. I stand by what i said about preferring Makinson over Morgan at centre, but then we lose Makinsons strong ball kick returns from wing. So i can see the sense in having Makinson on the wing. The reason i think Makinson is a better centre is because he is just a really good competitor. He doesn’t wait for the ball to find him. He goes looking. He tackles with intent, he jumps on every loose ball and chases every kick no matter how poor. That sort of competitor is wasted on the wing.

    Regarding Mark Percival. He’s a real enigma IMO. His treatment of Grace is sometimes shockingly bad. He seems to run to create something for himself and if he gets closed down his plan B is to ship the problem onto Grace with nothing on and it can make Grace look really bad. Some days Percival looks all class, and a very competent wingers centre. On other days i watch him and find myself thinking that he’s probably the most overrated player in the league.
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    Makinson is a quality winger and an average centre. He can cover any position on the back line probably but ultimately his best position is wing and we’ll never see him move from that.

    Morgan has struggled with service I think. No doubt about it Saints heavily prefer their left edge. I think it’s credit to Morgan that he’s even close to Percival for tries because he’s probably received 1/5 of the amount of ball Percival has had this season. I don’t think Morgan is any better than ‘good’ but he’s one of the better centres in super league for me.

    My top 5 in no particular order would be:
    Percival
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    I can't believe people are even contemplating calling either of our centres average.

    What I think people mean when they say average is not Jamie Lyon or Paul Newlove. Calling them average shows the poor depths of mathematics in this country.

    Add up all the centres in SL and Percy and Morgan would be no where near the middle. Next year we are buying an excellent centre but that does not make Morgan average.

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    MS I agree that we should always strive for better, but I think Morgan a better than average centre.
    You use a stat then claim a stat as pointless, that is being a la carte. I have stated Percy is a world class centre but human and prone to an odd bad decision, as pointed out in Regan`s second try. Regan caught easily in the first half? the fullback made a cover tackle and was favourite for it. I have just watched the Morgan mistake back a few times if he dummies he gets put over our line for a drop out, I would sooner see an attacking risk play if conditions are right as such rather than a dominant find the ground tackle with a kick down field.
    It did not work but the game is better for mistakes as it adds to the spectacle.
    MS you think Morgan is average, I think he is good, that`s all we differ on. Isolated plays/incidents can be used against any player to confirm a point the overall package is what we need to view. James Roby has made two mistakes this year

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Ive said before i think Morgan is average and that he will eventually cost us in a big game. To his credit he’s been playing well since Easter but it helps that we’re top of the league. I stand by what i said about preferring Makinson over Morgan at centre, but then we lose Makinsons strong ball kick returns from wing. So i can see the sense in having Makinson on the wing. The reason i think Makinson is a better centre is because he is just a really good competitor. He doesn’t wait for the ball to find him. He goes looking. He tackles with intent, he jumps on every loose ball and chases every kick no matter how poor. That sort of competitor is wasted on the wing.

    Regarding Mark Percival. He’s a real enigma IMO. His treatment of Grace is sometimes shockingly bad. He seems to run to create something for himself and if he gets closed down his plan B is to ship the problem onto Grace with nothing on and it can make Grace look really bad. Some days Percival looks all class, and a very competent wingers centre. On other days i watch him and find myself thinking that he’s probably the most overrated player in the league.
    Perhaps you are just incapable of judging centre play.

    Percival is currently rated by pundits as outstanding - a view publicly shared by Holbrook and Barba while even Wayne Bennett believed he was worthy of selection for England - and you seem to take no account of the fact that on many occasions a pass to Grace would simply result in him being knocked into touch.

    You make the utterly ridiculous claim that the quality of Morgan’s performances are helped by our position in the league. Do you not understand which factor is causal rather than a consequence of the other? Also, to condemn someone because of a suspicion that they will eventually cost us in a big game is no valid argument as to their worth. On that basis Don Fox was average.

    Finally, you believe that Makinson is a centre when he has shown himself to be largely unable or unwilling to pass the ball, an aspect for which you are more han willing to damn Percival. Yes, Makinson is a supreme competitor but the various facets of his game that you list contribute little to good centre play. Using your criteria, Peyroux and LMS are similarly better centres than Morgan.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Perhaps you are just incapable of judging centre play.

    Percival is currently rated by pundits as outstanding - a view publicly shared by Holbrook and Barba while even Wayne Bennett believed he was worthy of selection for England - and you seem to take no account of the fact that on many occasions a pass to Grace would simply result in him being knocked into touch.

    You make the utterly ridiculous claim that the quality of Morgan’s performances are helped by our position in the league. Do you not understand which factor is causal rather than a consequence of the other? Also, to condemn someone because of a suspicion that they will eventually cost us in a big game is no valid argument as to their worth. On that basis Don Fox was average.

    Finally, you believe that Makinson is a centre when he has shown himself to be largely unable or unwilling to pass the ball, an aspect for which you are more han willing to damn Percival. Yes, Makinson is a supreme competitor but the various facets of his game that you list contribute little to good centre play. Using your criteria, Peyroux and LMS are similarly better centres than Morgan.
    Perfect response. 100 % agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    According to John Wells, Morgan has been told by the club that he is no longer wanted.
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    I can't believe people are even contemplating calling either of our centres average.

    What I think people mean when they say average is not Jamie Lyon or Paul Newlove. Calling them average shows the poor depths of mathematics in this country.

    Add up all the centres in SL and Percy and Morgan would be no where near the middle. Next year we are buying an excellent centre but that does not make Morgan average.
    Since the two greats you mention, Morgan has been one of our better centres. I think in the last 10 years I would rate Gidley Percival Shenton and maybe Talau in front of him. Though Talau was a totally different type of centre, and as good has he has been, Shenton (also on the right) didn't produce for us.

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