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Thread: Some Things Never Change

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    As per title things will never change until we have 2 refs per game, there is just too much going on between the two teams for one single ref to judge and officiate. It’s also worse when your ref is unfit or inexperienced, Hewer was an example last week of being unfit to keep up with the game, at times he was struggling to set the 10 metres defensive line and allowing extra seconds at the PTB. Other times he was too far away to make a good judgement head tackles, obstruction, interference etc.
    The RFL need to create a major procurement program to triple the amount of officials we have at present, we should have a primary ref and a secondary ref. At the moment despite the errors and inconsistency of referees they can only be dropped for one game because of the shortage of official numbers.
    There should also be a schooling of coach and ref in way of a working group to reduce the amount of inconsistency created by players conning the ref or intepretation of the game by the referee himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    As per title things will never change until we have 2 refs per game, there is just too much going on between the two teams for one single ref to judge and officiate. It’s also worse when your ref is unfit or inexperienced, Hewer was an example last week of being unfit to keep up with the game, at times he was struggling to set the 10 metres defensive line and allowing extra seconds at the PTB. Other times he was too far away to make a good judgement head tackles, obstruction, interference etc.
    The RFL need to create a major procurement program to triple the amount of officials we have at present, we should have a primary ref and a secondary ref. At the moment despite the errors and inconsistency of referees they can only be dropped for one game because of the shortage of official numbers.
    There should also be a schooling of coach and ref in way of a working group to reduce the amount of inconsistency created by players conning the ref or intepretation of the game by the referee himself.
    Spot on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    Thanks mate. That actually makes it worse, to think that there are an increasing number of poor officials! They're starting to make Steve Ganson look like an open minded non egotistical, good ref!
    No worries mate they all blend in to one at the moment.............I didn't see the game on Sunday but the Catalan V Wigan game was utterly disgraceful.

    If refs can't stand up to the likes of Wane and Ratboy they shouldn't be out there. Totally bottled it and fell for every trick in the book.

    I honestly think age is now an issue, Liam Moore, who refereed that game is 21 years old............21 years old! A 21 year old refereeing a Super League game?? One with 2 clubs that never stop whingeing about refs and both have appalling disciplinary records. On top of that one of the teams has a record of pressurising refs by sending players to talk to them at half time too.........does that make any sense to anyone except the RFL?

    Not only that but he was born in Wigan. I mean, come on..........the bloke was on a hiding to nothing and what he got from Guasch and the French fans is nothing compared to what Wane would have done if he had not handed them a bundle of decisions in the second half. He was in a no win situation. I felt sorry for him tbh at the end his decision not to award a ball steal was absolutely hysterical.

    I am sure he will say he called it as he saw it but, wow, there were a lot of questionable decisions there second half and the all went one way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Benny View Post
    So how do you explain both sides constantly getting the rub of the green, both with referee's and the disciplinary? No one is saying there's some grand conspiracy. But it's pretty obvious they get away with more than other sides.
    I don't accept that they do. All sides have occasions where they get dubious decisions going for or against them but I don't see the evidence for saying that Wigan and Leeds get the rub of the green more than us, for example.
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    I think blaming the ref is just a fans way of venting their frustration when things don't go well.
    Yes they do make mistakes, that's never been any different.
    Unfortunately these days broadcasters like to highlight the errors.

    We seem to have a lot of inexperienced refs at the moment, I think all we can do is hope that in time they'll improve.
    On that note we have : S. Mikalauskas for the Huddersfield game.
    I don't think we've had him before

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    Last season we were on the wrong end of some bad calls. The narrow loss at Cas when the last Cas tryscorer was offside from the kick being a big one. I was expecting the calls to balance out over time and we’d get a break in our favour but it never happened. Throughout 2017 we seemed to get loads of shite calls go against us.
    We lost the semi at Cas because Percy missed conversions, fair enough. But the penalty against Morgan was soft, then to add insult to injury Childs ignored the Cas players obstructing our lads when Gale kicked the drop goal.

    The season before that when we lost at Warrington in the play offs. We played too conservatively on the night, but still, Lineham was awarded a try that never should have stood, then Ben Thaler disallowed a perfectly good try from Peyroux at the death.

    The officials are a joke IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous Grouse View Post

    We seem to have a lot of inexperienced refs at the moment, I think all we can do is hope that in time they'll improve.
    On that note we have : S. Mikalauskas for the Huddersfield game.
    I don't think we've had him before
    He reffed us last year in the Salford game when Matty did the last second drop goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMo View Post
    I don't accept that they do. All sides have occasions where they get dubious decisions going for or against them but I don't see the evidence for saying that Wigan and Leeds get the rub of the green more than us, for example.
    There is a logical problem with the Leeds/Pies argument that no one seems to have mentioned. It can be summarised in a question, “what happens when Leeds play Wigan?”

    To my way of thinking, Thaler allowed Wigan too much time in the tackle when they played on Friday. He also missed, or failed to penalise, clear head shots by O’Loughlin. Does that mean that he was biased against Leeds (who according to the logic of some on this thread get special treatment from refs and the RFL) or does it mean he made some mistakes? Might it also mean that my own interpretation of what was going on was coloured by my desire to see Wigan lose?

    I don’t know much about refs and after watching the highlights against Wakefield, wonder whether they have to pass a fitness test? However, I think that any player who abuses or even questions a refs decision in an unreasonable fashion, should be disciplined. I don’t think refs should use names when addressing players. They should keep their distance and use team and number and in turn, refs and assistants should all be “sir” (or “miss” or whatever is recommended for female officials). This may seem petty but it reminds everyone concerned that the official is automatically entitled to respect, even when their officiating has been awful.

    If refs are currently subjected to pressure at half time, that practice should stop. The RFL can easily deny access to them. It is up to the ref to deal with unreasonable pressure on the field and they should be encouraged to do so.

    I doubt whether there is a large pool of individuals queuing up to be refs. If existing refs are subjected to abuse and unreasonable pressure, that pool will diminish further and the chances of getting decent officials will diminish with it.

    As a fan, I’m never going to love the officials and cheer them on. Realistically, however, I accept that they are an essential part of the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    There is a logical problem with the Leeds/Pies argument that no one seems to have mentioned. It can be summarised in a question, “what happens when Leeds play Wigan?”

    To my way of thinking, Thaler allowed Wigan too much time in the tackle when they played on Friday. He also missed, or failed to penalise, clear head shots by O’Loughlin. Does that mean that he was biased against Leeds (who according to the logic of some on this thread get special treatment from refs and the RFL) or does it mean he made some mistakes? Might it also mean that my own interpretation of what was going on was coloured by my desire to see Wigan lose?

    I don’t know much about refs and after watching the highlights against Wakefield, wonder whether they have to pass a fitness test? However, I think that any player who abuses or even questions a refs decision in an unreasonable fashion, should be disciplined. I don’t think refs should use names when addressing players. They should keep their distance and use team and number and in turn, refs and assistants should all be “sir” (or “miss” or whatever is recommended for female officials). This may seem petty but it reminds everyone concerned that the official is automatically entitled to respect, even when their officiating has been awful.

    If refs are currently subjected to pressure at half time, that practice should stop. The RFL can easily deny access to them. It is up to the ref to deal with unreasonable pressure on the field and they should be encouraged to do so.

    I doubt whether there is a large pool of individuals queuing up to be refs. If existing refs are subjected to abuse and unreasonable pressure, that pool will diminish further and the chances of getting decent officials will diminish with it.

    As a fan, I’m never going to love the officials and cheer them on. Realistically, however, I accept that they are an essential part of the sport.
    I agree with you on most of this (especially protecting officials from coaches at half time). Why oh why is it that O'Loughlin makes head shot after head shot with impunity? He's done it for years and nearly every tackle he was involved in at Leeds was a high shot. Why can't officials see this? I can excuse one or two being missed, but every time he piled in it was over the top. I think to answer your question re what happens when the two teams who enjoy "the rub of the green" more than any others meet, you get what you saw the other night. A dire defensive game, with loads of penalties and a low score. If you recommended a non SL fan watch two of the most successful teams in SL and they watched that, they wouldn't be back for more! Even Eddie Hemmings was bored watching his beloved Ratboy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    I agree with you on most of this (especially protecting officials from coaches at half time). Why oh why is it that O'Loughlin makes head shot after head shot with impunity? He's done it for years and nearly every tackle he was involved in at Leeds was a high shot. Why can't officials see this? I can excuse one or two being missed, but every time he piled in it was over the top. I think to answer your question re what happens when the two teams who enjoy "the rub of the green" more than any others meet, you get what you saw the other night. A dire defensive game, with loads of penalties and a low score. If you recommended a non SL fan watch two of the most successful teams in SL and they watched that, they wouldn't be back for more! Even Eddie Hemmings was bored watching his beloved Ratboy!
    From what I’ve read on here, officials, like teams, review matches. If that is the case, you’d think that they’d learn to watch out for the teams who specialise in verbal/psychological pressure when things don’t go their way. You’d also think that they’d know the cheap shot merchants and teams that get away most with slowing down the PTB. I don’t see any obvious signs that they are aware of these things and I think there is a great deal of room for improvement. The bottom line, however, is that because of the job they are doing players and coaching staff should respect them.

    What is clear from the Percival incident is that players need to be aware of the consequences of putting undue pressure on an official or being disrespectful to an official. One consequence of reacting badly to a decision is that it distracts players from playing. We’ve seen tries scored against teams who are too busy arguing to defend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Biased ref!!!! So he purposely wanted saints to lose and took the opportunity to knowingly favour wakefield?

    So he didn't make any mistakes, he consciously went out to make wrong decisions aimed at helping wakefield win?

    Just watched the video, I think there are more biased fans than refs. Remember the ref doesn't get 24 hours and a video to reflect on before making a decision like every expert on here.

    When you view the video and critique the ref that's the advantage you have. The Percival try came from PTB from a player who hadn't regained his feet fully, that could have been a penalty to wakey, you see it works both ways.
    Interesting to see Hewer hasn't been given a super league game this week.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    Interesting to see Hewer hasn't been given a super league game this week.....

    Why do you think that is?

    Maybe it's due to his performance, but to suggest it was one way errors is inaccurate IMO. The playing the ball before fully regaining his feet for the Percival try is one thing I picked out.

    Generally speaking that is an issue with the game that needs sorting, it would help players and officials to ensure a correct PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMo View Post
    I really don't buy in to this bias accusation against officials with any club. Incompetence, human error, lack of fitness in keeping up with play I can believe but I really don't think there is a grand conspiracy against Saints because we are not Wigan or Leeds and have somehow earned the opprobrium of the RFL.
    Do you remember the days of Ian Smith?
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    Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............

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    Quote Originally Posted by warringtonsaint View Post
    Do you remember the days of Ian Smith?

    I know I do, as a fan and a player I have never focussed on the ref anywhere as much as people do now. It seems an absolute obsession, if he was bias I have no idea as I was watching the players and the rugby and not fixated on the ref

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    Interesting to see Hewer hasn't been given a super league game this week.....
    Neither has Robert Hicks. However there are only four super league fixtures so no drama and both are refereeing Super league teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I know I do, as a fan and a player I have never focussed on the ref anywhere as much as people do now. It seems an absolute obsession, if he was bias I have no idea as I was watching the players and the rugby and not fixated on the ref
    I've never thought referees have been biased or in anyway corrupt. Like players can be absolute crap.

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    The way people go on you would honestly have thought that have never received a favourable decision. Some go for you, some go against you, it's how it always has been, how it always will be.

    The often rolled out line is "all we want is consistency", but what is consistency? It is acting in the same way over time. To avoid being a pedant, I assume we want consistently correct, not consistently wrong. But in a game where hundreds of decisions have to be made, that's just not possible. It's particularly hard when players and coaches will bend the rules to gain an advantage (and they aren't wrong to do so).

    Saints have made 138 errors this season, an average of 12 per match. It's likely that referees will make a similar amount of errors per game, some of which major, some minor. If we accept that players make mistakes, then why can't we accept that referees do? Instead, we hound them.

    Many fans have a pre-conceived idea that a referee will have a bad game before it even kicks off, so in some people's eyes, they have failed before even starting. They don't even get given a chance.

    As for the idea that referees are biased against us, there is just no evidence to support that. And having decisions go against us is not evidence. Does anyone really think that Hicks would have been pleased at missing that forward pass last week? I have little doubt he would have felt embarrassed.

    For example. for every forward pass try Hull get awarded against us, we get a try incorrectly awarded against Widnes.

    For the try Wire got against us this year where there was a knock on in the build up, we get an incorrect penalty to level the game against Wigan at a crucial time on Good Friday.

    For the succession of bad decisions we got against Wire in the 2016 play off semi-final, we get a succession of favourable decisions against Catalans in the 2014 play off semi-final.

    We have our best team in years. We are playing our best rugby in years. We have players with skill and flair. Maybe some of us should go to the match to watch the rugby instead of watching the ref? Maybe we would enjoy it more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    The way people go on you would honestly have thought that have never received a favourable decision. Some go for you, some go against you, it's how it always has been, how it always will be.

    The often rolled out line is "all we want is consistency", but what is consistency? It is acting in the same way over time. To avoid being a pedant, I assume we want consistently correct, not consistently wrong. But in a game where hundreds of decisions have to be made, that's just not possible. It's particularly hard when players and coaches will bend the rules to gain an advantage (and they aren't wrong to do so).

    Saints have made 138 errors this season, an average of 12 per match. It's likely that referees will make a similar amount of errors per game, some of which major, some minor. If we accept that players make mistakes, then why can't we accept that referees do? Instead, we hound them.

    Many fans have a pre-conceived idea that a referee will have a bad game before it even kicks off, so in some people's eyes, they have failed before even starting. They don't even get given a chance.

    As for the idea that referees are biased against us, there is just no evidence to support that. And having decisions go against us is not evidence. Does anyone really think that Hicks would have been pleased at missing that forward pass last week? I have little doubt he would have felt embarrassed.

    For example. for every forward pass try Hull get awarded against us, we get a try incorrectly awarded against Widnes.

    For the try Wire got against us this year where there was a knock on in the build up, we get an incorrect penalty to level the game against Wigan at a crucial time on Good Friday.

    For the succession of bad decisions we got against Wire in the 2016 play off semi-final, we get a succession of favourable decisions against Catalans in the 2014 play off semi-final.

    We have our best team in years. We are playing our best rugby in years. We have players with skill and flair. Maybe some of us should go to the match to watch the rugby instead of watching the ref? Maybe we would enjoy it more.

    Probably the best post I have ever seen on this board. It's what I've wanted to say without having your skill for putting it into words.

    The amount of times people have asked me who is the ref today, what ever the response is they will roll their eyes and say something like "we are in for some bad calls today then" I swear it doesn't matter who the ref is the response is the same, I could say Donald Duck and they would reply the same.

    I think the amount of players trying to fool the ref seems to have increased recently, throwing themselves on the floor at the PTB, dropping th ball and claiming its stolen etc. something else that makes it harder for the officials. People may say players are entitled and it's part of sport, I don't like it but have come to reluctantly accept it's currently part of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Why do you think that is?

    Maybe it's due to his performance, but to suggest it was one way errors is inaccurate IMO. The playing the ball before fully regaining his feet for the Percival try is one thing I picked out.

    Generally speaking that is an issue with the game that needs sorting, it would help players and officials to ensure a correct PTB

    No idea, I wasn’t at the game so can’t comment on his performance. Just saw the refereeing appointments for this week and noticed he didn’t have a game. I don’t think I suggested anything did I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    No idea, I wasn’t at the game so can’t comment on his performance. Just saw the refereeing appointments for this week and noticed he didn’t have a game. I don’t think I suggested anything did I?

    Apologies if you didn't, it did seem that you were making a point, I may have mistakenly thought it was suggesting he had been punished for a poor performance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Probably the best post I have ever seen on this board. It's what I've wanted to say without having your skill for putting it into words.

    The amount of times people have asked me who is the ref today, what ever the response is they will roll their eyes and say something like "we are in for some bad calls today then" I swear it doesn't matter who the ref is the response is the same, I could say Donald Duck and they would reply the same.

    I think the amount of players trying to fool the ref seems to have increased recently, throwing themselves on the floor at the PTB, dropping th ball and claiming its stolen etc. something else that makes it harder for the officials. People may say players are entitled and it's part of sport, I don't like it but have come to reluctantly accept it's currently part of the game.
    I think you've made better points there than the post you've replied to, to be honest. It's a difficult sport to referee, as difficult as it has ever been. It's not something I'd ever want to do. It takes guts to go out there and I have no doubts that they do their best.

    I think there are a couple of myths that get put out there. Any talk of referees favouring one team over another is false to me. Supporters talk about the referee needing to allow a quick ruck, I disagree. Of course there is a cut off point but players control how quickly the game is played. If I'm defending in a two/three man tackle and we've put the defender on his back, I'd expect a slower ruck. Likewise, if I'm running with the ball, break the tackle and land on my front, I'd expect a quick ruck.

    Players are judged on their performance, referees should be to. I thought the referee was poor for both teams on Sunday, I see a lot of poor decisions made in other games to. I don't know how good a ref Hewer is because he doesn't give himself a chance, he's constantly behind play. Mistakes happen, the aim should be to find a way to minimise them. RV12 gives examples of how mistakes prove that non biase but it also shows how many mistakes have been made in big games in recent years.

    I think the linesman need to do more and should be held on an equal standing to the bloke in the middle. There’s a lot to look at for one guy and inevitably, if he isn’t supported, he’ll miss things. Super League officials are in contact with each other, make the most of it. Split the play between them (one focuses on the attacking team, the other controls the offside line, sort it our between themselves. They should be a team in their own right, not three individuals and should all have equal responsibility looking at different areas.

    IMO there needs to be consistency with regards to disciplinary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    I think you've made better points there than the post you've replied to, to be honest. It's a difficult sport to referee, as difficult as it has ever been. It's not something I'd ever want to do. It takes guts to go out there and I have no doubts that they do their best.

    I think there are a couple of myths that get put out there. Any talk of referees favouring one team over another is false to me. Supporters talk about the referee needing to allow a quick ruck, I disagree. Of course there is a cut off point but players control how quickly the game is played. If I'm defending in a two/three man tackle and we've put the defender on his back, I'd expect a slower ruck. Likewise, if I'm running with the ball, break the tackle and land on my front, I'd expect a quick ruck.

    Players are judged on their performance, referees should be to. I thought the referee was poor for both teams on Sunday, I see a lot of poor decisions made in other games to. I don't know how good a ref Hewer is because he doesn't give himself a chance, he's constantly behind play. Mistakes happen, the aim should be to find a way to minimise them. RV12 gives examples of how mistakes prove that non biase but it also shows how many mistakes have been made in big games in recent years.

    I think the linesman need to do more and should be held on an equal standing to the bloke in the middle. There’s a lot to look at for one guy and inevitably, if he isn’t supported, he’ll miss things. Super League officials are in contact with each other, make the most of it. Split the play between them (one focuses on the attacking team, the other controls the offside line, sort it our between themselves. They should be a team in their own right, not three individuals and should all have equal responsibility looking at different areas.

    IMO there needs to be consistency with regards to disciplinary.
    Another very balanced post with some very good and interesting ideas.

    I'm an advocate for rewarding a good tackle. So agree, tackled on the back, the reward is a slower ruck. The modern style of holding up, then taking to ground on the refs 'held' call is unattractive, slow and rewards a poor tackle imo. I would look to reward more those who go to ground and shout 'held' much more quickly if held up, rewarding a player who can keep their feet in a tackle. I'm not too worried about slightly slower rucks, I think they would tidy the PTB up and bring more control, the gaps would still appear if we reduce the amount of interchanges as player will still tire. The problem with allowing quick rucks all the time is the single option of running from dummy half being the dominant attacking style which lacks creativity.
    So yes control the ruck, reward good tackles and don't be worried to slow it down slightly.
    Reduce the amount of interchanges.

    Agree the touch judges could be more involved, I like the in goal judges, all those officials could divide some responsibility to help improve the percentage of correct calls
    I'd also look to adopt the video ref like cricket does, only there to stop the howler, not the close call. We spend 5 minutes looking for a finger nail in touch, it's the obvious error that it should be there for, of it takes more than 2 minutes to view it's too close and go with the ref. I'd also consider the captains call for review like cricket, obviously this needs thinking through a bit more.

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    I don't buy in to the theory of any ref being biased.The biggest problem is consistency and fitness. I suspect games officiated by the likes of Hewer who does not appear to be as fit as others have longer play the balls because he needs a breather so the game is different for a start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I don't buy in to the theory of any ref being biased.The biggest problem is consistency and fitness. I suspect games officiated by the likes of Hewer who does not appear to be as fit as others have longer play the balls because he needs a breather so the game is different for a start.
    You could say there is an inconsistent bias to how the game is officiated. Certain refs are more tolerant on head tackles, lying on and off side, loose carries in a ruck etc. Bentham, Child and Hicks you can put into this category.

    SKY put a lot of pressure on refs as field decisions get analysed to death, last season Thaler was effected the most alongside Jack Smith.

    The other refs are perhaps less mentally strong and become more erratic when confronted by players directly or the head team coach indirectly.

    There is no doubt that all the refs know the rules of the game and how to apply them,but when outside forces come into play then Consistency becomes a very difficult and unpredictable challenge.
    N

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