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Thread: Not technically a sport

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    The poor promoting of the sport, poor officiating, inconsistent disciplinary system, cheap balls the players can’t keep hold of, questionable sponsorship deals etc. Ive said it before (and will get laughed at for being a conspiracy theorist) but i sometimes wonder if Fat Nigel and co have a hidden agenda to slowly cripple the sport in to the ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    This is a brilliant, brilliant post. You've nailed it

    I do watch Union and played it a bit. I do like the game.

    Go to a Union international though. Full of hooray henry's who haven't a clue what they're watching but they spend a fortune on matchday. Thousands upon thousands of them.

    You'll struggle to meet a spectator at an England RU game who follows a club team


    While there ar a few corporate types at those games, I think you will find that the majority of tickets are sold to members of their local RU clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    But would you not accept that during that period in the 80s when union was in the doldrums it was still the darling of the broadcast media? Nobody cared but the boys at Oxbridge but if the boys at Oxbridge care you get national exposure. All of which leaves them in a better position to develop from where, you are quite right, they have done a fine job of marketing their game. They have stretched an elastic band to the moon, quite frankly.

    Our game, while it does little to help itself, faces age-old opposition from much of the broadcast and print media. I studied this at university and without going into the finer points of a very boring 12000 word dissertation the tabloid press ignore rugby league. Even that unspeakable rag that is part of the stable that helps fund the sport.
    Im sorry but i don't believe it has the effect thought by some.

    Stephen Jones and his ilk are just bigots, i got as offended by anyone by his bile but let's be honest we should have been better at dealing with it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    I'll answer by using a comparison.

    Union in the 80's was struggling in this country. No real league structure, not a very exciting product and losing all its top players to league (many fans conveniently forget that last part).


    What did they do? They identified the issues and they overhauled their entire structure, lots of it copied from league but nevertheless you cant argue it has changed the game and they have benefitted massively.

    What does Rugby league do when it can be argued we are in a similar position?



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    Union in the 80’s was very much middle to upper classed based at the higher level, at grass root level as mentioned it was very unstructured, I could get a game at Moss Lane but would struggle to get into a Pilks recs side.

    Remember the England international side the commentary when the game was dull was switched to individual players, he,s a doctors son, has a masters degree, works in the city, studying in law etc etc hence the snobbery divide between Union and League.

    The league invasion into Wales to buy up all the best talent was a wake up call for Union in the UK, money and protectism grew into the Union Big Boys around a dozen clubs. This was around the time Wigan started to dominate for about 8 years, in reality we could have easily called our game Rugby League Wigan both domestically and perhaps at international level as well.

    By the time Uncle Mo broke the one team chain and gave us Superleague the divide between Union and League in the marketing department was too much to bridge and its been like that for the last 20 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    I'll answer by using a comparison.

    Union in the 80's was struggling in this country. No real league structure, not a very exciting product and losing all its top players to league (many fans conveniently forget that last part).

    How many English/Scottish/Irish union players can you name who switched to playing league?

    If we're moving onto the subject of RL signing union players, then let's look at the hypocrisy and the prejudice.

    A person with a talent for playing *rugby* was prevented by the RFU and other RU bodies from earning a living from their talent. A rugby union player could (and did) earn money from other professional sports like cricket and in those cases the Corinthean spirit of amateurism stopped applying. But play rugby league (even not for money!) and it was inquisition time.

    Pure and simple prejudice.

    They weren't just banned from playing rugby union ever again, they were ostracised by former friends, barred from entering rugby union clubhouses and stadia. Pathetic.

    What makes this even more laughable was the 'boot money' farce of shamateurism. The top players were of course paid. And many took advantage of the old school tie network to land pretend-jobs that required very little of them but gave them a salary so they could concentrate primarily on the rugger.

    And then, once the union authorities bow to pressure from the clubs and remove the veneer of 'amateurism', suddenly it's as if the prejudice and holier-than-thou posturing of the preceding century didn't exist, and the RFU were handing fat contracts to league players and coaches.


    Like Stephen and others are at pains to say, as a sport, of course rugby league has a dead-eye aim when it comes to shooting itself in the foot. The parochialism and self-interest of clubs is horrendous - just witness the shocking situation of reserve sides. The marketing nearly always seems dreamt up by a bunch of year 7 school kids doing a project. We change the rules seemingly every time porcine Nigel farts. The powers that be tweaked the ptb/offside rules/interpretation to turn a fast-paced, vibrant, try-fest spectacular into an automated crash-a-thon and wrestlefest, where the ability to manipulate the ref into not penalising your team for 3/4/5 blokes slowly getting off the tackled man one by one can and does decide games.

    But neither the ineptitude of the RL authorities, the poor on-field product nor parochialism of clubs (accentuated by the Leeds-led Yaaaarksher 'mafia') can be looked at in isolation when it comes to reasons for our sport's perpetual struggle to get not only adequate media attention and representation, but simple recognition by the global sports body that has evolved to be the arbiter of deciding what is and isn't an actual sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Union in the 80’s was very much middle to upper classed based at the higher level, at grass root level as mentioned it was very unstructured, I could get a game at Moss Lane but would struggle to get into a Pilks recs side.

    Remember the England international side the commentary when the game was dull was switched to individual players, he,s a doctors son, has a masters degree, works in the city, studying in law etc etc hence the snobbery divide between Union and League.

    The league invasion into Wales to buy up all the best talent was a wake up call for Union in the UK, money and protectism grew into the Union Big Boys around a dozen clubs. This was around the time Wigan started to dominate for about 8 years, in reality we could have easily called our game Rugby League Wigan both domestically and perhaps at international level as well.

    By the time Uncle Mo broke the one team chain and gave us Superleague the divide between Union and League in the marketing department was too much to bridge and its been like that for the last 20 years.
    Really.

    LSH in my time there had 6 teams plus a vets, West Park 5 and Ruskin 3.

    Real issues at grass roots.

    Why people continue this bs is beyond me. There were as many playing union in the town as league

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Im sorry but i don't believe it has the effect thought by some.

    Stephen Jones and his ilk are just bigots, i got as offended by anyone by his bile but let's be honest we should have been better at dealing with it

    The greater damage to league is caused by more subtle methods than Jones gobbing off. Lack of column inches in newspapers and coverage (the BBC only showing the RL highlights show in the north - insisting on a repeat of Allo! Allo! for the rest of the country). Lobbying done behind the scenes at international organisations to keep the game from being recognised, deterring sponsors. Having league banned from being taught in schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    How many English/Scottish/Irish union players can you name who switched to playing league?

    If we're moving onto the subject of RL signing union players, then let's look at the hypocrisy and the prejudice.

    A person with a talent for playing *rugby* was prevented by the RFU and other RU bodies from earning a living from their talent. A rugby union player could (and did) earn money from other professional sports like cricket and in those cases the Corinthean spirit of amateurism stopped applying. But play rugby league (even not for money!) and it was inquisition time.

    Pure and simple prejudice.

    They weren't just banned from playing rugby union ever again, they were ostracised by former friends, barred from entering rugby union clubhouses and stadia. Pathetic.

    What makes this even more laughable was the 'boot money' farce of shamateurism. The top players were of course paid. And many took advantage of the old school tie network to land pretend-jobs that required very little of them but gave them a salary so they could concentrate primarily on the rugger.

    And then, once the union authorities bow to pressure from the clubs and remove the veneer of 'amateurism', suddenly it's as if the prejudice and holier-than-thou posturing of the preceding century didn't exist, and the RFU were handing fat contracts to league players and coaches.


    Like Stephen and others are at pains to say, as a sport, of course rugby league has a dead-eye aim when it comes to shooting itself in the foot. The parochialism and self-interest of clubs is horrendous - just witness the shocking situation of reserve sides. The marketing nearly always seems dreamt up by a bunch of year 7 school kids doing a project. We change the rules seemingly every time porcine Nigel farts. The powers that be tweaked the ptb/offside rules/interpretation to turn a fast-paced, vibrant, try-fest spectacular into an automated crash-a-thon and wrestlefest, where the ability to manipulate the ref into not penalising your team for 3/4/5 blokes slowly getting off the tackled man one by one can and does decide games.

    But neither the ineptitude of the RL authorities, the poor on-field product nor parochialism of clubs (accentuated by the Leeds-led Yaaaarksher 'mafia') can be looked at in isolation when it comes to reasons for our sport's perpetual struggle to get not only adequate media attention and representation, but simple recognition by the global sports body that has evolved to be the arbiter of deciding what is and isn't an actual sport.
    Cant recall many irish but off the top of my head Bentley, Strett, Williams all from England and of course Tait from scotland.

    But again facts dont really come into this. You're also ignoring athletes banned professionals around those times although i cant recall what year that changed.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    The greater damage to league is caused by more subtle methods than Jones gobbing off. Lack of column inches in newspapers and coverage (the BBC only showing the RL highlights show in the north - insisting on a repeat of Allo! Allo! for the rest of the country). Lobbying done behind the scenes at international organisations to keep the game from being recognised, deterring sponsors. Having league banned from being taught in schools.
    They're big boys running this sport im not sure sticks and stones is a good enough excuse for chronic mismanagement.

    Our very own coach had his own weekly column in a national newspaper, did he use it to promote the game or show it in a positive light?

    No he moaned about it and lied to the fans about which union players we were signing!

    Was that unions fault as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    They're big boys running this sport im not sure sticks and stones is a good enough excuse for chronic mismanagement.

    Our very own coach had his own weekly column in a national newspaper, did he use it to promote the game or show it in a positive light?

    No he moaned about it and lied to the fans about which union players we were signing!

    Was that unions fault as well?

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    I had forgotten about that,i don't think it was lies,he had such a massive ego (still does)i think he really believed if he spoke with them they would sign (totally delusional)reminds me of another of our coaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Really.

    LSH in my time there had 6 teams plus a vets, West Park 5 and Ruskin 3

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    I,m talking league structure in Union in the 80,s, from my memory it was a lot of friendly games then years after that they organised and copied a similar rugby league format as per your earlier post #38.

    Further to my earlier post of Wigan domination, how many ex Wigan players got recognition by Union and migrated over to the other code to strengthen their game, whilst the RFL turned there head away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post

    Our very own coach had his own weekly column in a national newspaper, did he use it to promote the game or show it in a positive light?
    It was only in northern print-runs; Midlands, South/South-East, Scotland, Wales, etc didn't have it.

    Edit: and that was the Daily Mirror, a generally left-leaning paper, and hardly likely to be read by - never mind influence - the demographics who make decisions regarding sponsorship, etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I,m talking league structure in Union in the 80,s, from my memory it was a lot of friendly games then years after that they organised and copied a similar rugby league format as per your earlier post #38.

    Further to my earlier post of Wigan domination, how many ex Wigan players got recognition by Union and migrated over to the other code to strengthen their game, whilst the RFL turned there head away.
    You're missing my point completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Really.

    LSH in my time there had 6 teams plus a vets, West Park 5 and Ruskin 3.

    Real issues at grass roots.

    Why people continue this bs is beyond me. There were as many playing union in the town as league

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    You are right,union teams in the 80's had a lot of teams i was in the colts there in '88/89 then played in a few teams from the 5ths to the 3rds before going on to blackbrook. But i wonder how much of that was down to the system at the time. We were not allowed to play league in school so it was union or nothing due to the powers that be trying to strangle the game. The whole amature game was reeled out time after time yet so many union clubs around the area had ex pro's either playing under false names or coaching,whilst the likes of David Campese were getting paid for playing,everyone knew it but nothing was ever done about it. I remember watching a program about the game games one and there was an interview with a Coventry player,he was asked about playing and claiming expenses and with a smug look on his face he said " yes we get expenses,just some of us drive far bigger cars than others "

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    You are right,union teams in the 80's had a lot of teams i was in the colts there in '88/89 then played in a few teams from the 5ths to the 3rds before going on to blackbrook. But i wonder how much of that was down to the system at the time. We were not allowed to play league in school so it was union or nothing due to the powers that be trying to strangle the game. The whole amature game was reeled out time after time yet so many union clubs around the area had ex pro's either playing under false names or coaching,whilst the likes of David Campese were getting paid for playing,everyone knew it but nothing was ever done about it. I remember watching a program about the game games one and there was an interview with a Coventry player,he was asked about playing and claiming expenses and with a smug look on his face he said " yes we get expenses,just some of us drive far bigger cars than others "
    Sorry mate but what does union players getting expenses have to do with this discussion?

    Who cares if they were paid or not? If our sport had been managed correctly none of this would matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    What about the fact that most people's experience judging by the posts on here is that they were actively prevented from playing rugby league in school? Are you suggesting that this was the fault of league authorities and nothing to do with dark forces in union? Is this something else we should be blaming Nige for?
    Of course there was no league clubs with junior teams at the time was there?

    We were actively prevented from playing football at school but i dont recall it stopping us.

    Some of these comments are just childish now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Were you? Obviously I wouldn't know but all of my mates played football at school. Organised football I mean, like a proper school team.
    Absolutely. We played at break time but no school team

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Some of these comments are just childish now.
    And I think, by refusing to accept a point that everyone else is absolutely adamant on, you're coming across like that Comical Ali guy.

    We've had poster after poster wholeheartedly acknowledging the shortcomings of RL management over the years.

    But you are refusing to concede that rugby union and its media supporters have had any role in the suppression of our game, despite people listing evidence to the contrary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    And I think, by refusing to accept a point that everyone else is absolutely adamant on, you're coming across like that Comical Ali guy.

    We've had poster after poster wholeheartedly acknowledging the shortcomings of RL management over the years.

    But you are refusing to concede that rugby union and its media supporters have had any role in the suppression of our game, despite people listing evidence to the contrary.

    Its a simple point im making. Instead of all the whinging and blaming im suggesting that rugby league could and should have dealt with this.

    And as for suppression did league not have live club games on tv first?



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    Last edited by Buddy; 26th October 2017 at 12:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Of course there was no league clubs with junior teams at the time was there?

    We were actively prevented from playing football at school but i dont recall it stopping us.

    Some of these comments are just childish now.

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    It wasn't the school itself that didn't allow us to have a league team,it was the education authority ( highly influenced by the union power brokers ) The point being no matter how hard we tried as a sport it was getting strangled at every level. If you are only allowed to play union at school and you find you enjoy it then you are more likely to continue playing it are you not ? Also if you find you don't like playing it you are probably not even going to give league a try.

    There was a period even playing amature league was shunned by the rugby union and players who did so were asked to leave union clubs they went to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    It wasn't the school itself that didn't allow us to have a league team,it was the education authority ( highly influenced by the union power brokers ) The point being no matter how hard we tried as a sport it was getting strangled at every level. If you are only allowed to play union at school and you find you enjoy it then you are more likely to continue playing it are you not ? Also if you find you don't like playing it you are probably not even going to give league a try.

    There was a period even playing amature league was shunned by the rugby union and players who did so were asked to leave union clubs they went to.
    Highly influenced by union power brokers? Come on this isnt some sort of mafia movie.

    I know the JFK stuff is going on today but this is just conspiratorial nonsense.


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    some of the super rugby games ive seen in the last two years apart ,rugby league as always been more exciting played by stronger athletes with more skill and yet its always in this country been in the shadow of union the r.l have had this great product to sell for a long time and i cant help but think theve not made the most of what they have to offer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Highly influenced by union power brokers? Come on this isnt some sort of mafia movie.

    I know the JFK stuff is going on today but this is just conspiratorial nonsense.


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    So why else was league all but banished from schools ? Have a good reason do you ? We played literally everything but and when we asked the games teacher ( he played scrum half for pilks recs and was very pro league ) We got the reply " we are not allowed to play league in schools." So you had the situation that all around the rl areas league was banned in schools. Talk to ray French or Clive Griffiths and they will tell you they would of liked to of had league teams at Cowley,as will ex pro's who went on to teach at other schools. The people who run union have connections and influence,it's the old school tie brigade. What better way is there to kill a sport than trying to stop school kids from playing it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    So why else was league all but banished from schools ? Have a good reason do you ? We played literally everything but and when we asked the games teacher ( he played scrum half for pilks recs and was very pro league ) We got the reply " we are not allowed to play league in schools." So you had the situation that all around the rl areas league was banned in schools. Talk to ray French or Clive Griffiths and they will tell you they would of liked to of had league teams at Cowley,as will ex pro's who went on to teach at other schools. The people who run union have connections and influence,it's the old school tie brigade. What better way is there to kill a sport than trying to stop school kids from playing it ?
    Did it work?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Highly influenced by union power brokers? Come on this isnt some sort of mafia movie.

    I know the JFK stuff is going on today but this is just conspiratorial nonsense.


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    I’m sure RU tried to suppress RL in the distant past because they saw us as a threat but I think it’s world wide influence is being over stated somewhat in this thread. For at least ten years they have had the better product and not because of the Daily Mail or ex public school boys have positions of power or influence. They have a broader appeal and we have evolved into a less skilful game. Sky portrays our players as terminator style machines. Sky isn’t the BBC. Even the BBC has much less influence than social media. If we get back to more exciting games dominated by barn storming forwards (eg Sonny Nicole), fast wingers ( Anthony Sullivan, Martin Offiah) and incredible half backs ( Alex Murphy, Tommy Martin) and a better league structure with stronger management neither the Daily Mailnor the South African RU will matter in my view. We have missed a trick as epitomised by “the grind” which had some many people turned of RL.

    I prefer cock up theories to conspiracy theories in this case

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