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Thread: 19 man squad v Wakefield - Amor dropped

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    If Smith gets dropped on form I wouldn't argue with that because he has been poor. But on the basic principle of dropping players who are out of form he might consider himself unlucky. There are half a dozen players who have been playing way below what we need and of those so far only Amor has suffered the consequences. Our squad isn't deep enough to drop everyone who hasn't been playing well.
    Oh, I'm with you completely on this one. Too many out of form players exposes our lack of depth and there are plenty of areas in the team that need improvement. JH doesn't have the luxury to drop every out of form player - though i do think he could drop those in playmaking roles (which he did last week in Fages and Richardson) and still have options to fill in the gaps with more in form players. Even if Smith has played better than some of our other forwards and backs - i don't think he's played better than the competition for his own position. I don't think he could grumble about that much - even if other players in different positions are very lucky to hold onto their own places in the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Judging by this and some of the other posts looks like the team could be something like:

    Barba, Makinson, Morgan, Percival, Grace, Lomax, Richardson, Douglas, Roby, Thompson, Taia, Peyroux, Wilkin.
    Subs: Fages, LMS, Walmsley, Knowles.
    If that is the team, then I do not think many people will complain about that.

    Although it would not surprise me if he drops Fages again with Smith at #7 and Richardson on the bench.

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    If Fages is dropped again and does not feature unless we are playing dead rubbers, I can see him looking elsewhere for next season. He has his faults but I can not see what more he can do. I think one thing we miss when he is not playing is all his tackles. Smith will never be able to offer that. After seeing Smith for some games now I just can't see how he is better than Richardson and Fages combo. He just is not. If I was Fages I would be angry and miffed at being left out.
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    Yes, an overhaul of the SL is well in order and create quality rugby in this country - rather than more even competition. Though, like you - I don't see this happening anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    In the context of Fages getting dropped last week then absolutely Smith can have no complaints if he doesn't make the side tonight. But I don't think Theo was dropped because of poor form. I just think that JH thought he could get away with not having that extra back in the 17 and to do that he had to choose one (or two if you include Richardson who didn't make the 19 last week) of them to leave out. Obviously in areas where we do have a bit of depth, the halves arguably being one, then JH can afford to be a bit more ruthless.

    It all comes back to the salary cap again. How many sides do have the depth to leave out their established players if they have a run of poor form? Most would then be relying on kids or on players who were back-ups to the players that are under-performing for a reason. The whole league lacks depth and yet people want 14 teams again.

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    Lomax is a square peg in a round hole. Regardless of how good a full back he is, he isn't and never will be a HB. If Barba has to play FB then I'd go with Fages and Richardson at HB, but personally would prefer 1 Lomax, 6 Barba, and 7 Smith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelCloset View Post
    Lomax is a square peg in a round hole. Regardless of how good a full back he is, he isn't and never will be a HB. If Barba has to play FB then I'd go with Fages and Richardson at HB, but personally would prefer 1 Lomax, 6 Barba, and 7 Smith.
    Are you not contradicting yourself a bit here? Barba is no more of a 6 than Lomax is so is similarly a square peg in a round hole. I'm not saying Barba wouldn't necessarily do well at 6 but like I said, he's no more familiar to the role than Lomax is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelCloset View Post
    Lomax is a square peg in a round hole. Regardless of how good a full back he is, he isn't and never will be a HB. If Barba has to play FB then I'd go with Fages and Richardson at HB, but personally would prefer 1 Lomax, 6 Barba, and 7 Smith.
    Is Barba any more a 6 than Lomax, though? He played there for a season at Brisbane and was a flop, by all accounts.

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    looks like the game will be played in wet weather

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hemmings' Wig View Post
    I agree, I just cannot see any situation in which Smith will be dropped. Fages on the bench will be the only change from last week.

    Your very close just been told by saints legend, Smith has been dropped and Fages on the bench. Don't really fancy Lomax at 6 hopefully Fages comes off the bench early to replace Lomax. Still got 1 to 2 hours on the motorway to change there mind though.

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    I think the problem tonight will be the "merry whistleblower" rather than our team selection. Thaler is the biggest "homer" out of the lot of them. He bases his decisions on crowd reactions rather his own view - a case in point was sending off Amor at Wigan earlier this season for a normal tackle. We have benefitted from it in the past too

    If the Wakey crowd shout for stuff he will invariably give them the decisions as he's very weak and is easily manipulated

    We just need to accept they will get 90% of the decisions and try to keep our composure

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Are you not contradicting yourself a bit here? Barba is no more of a 6 than Lomax is so is similarly a square peg in a round hole. I'm not saying Barba wouldn't necessarily do well at 6 but like I said, he's no more familiar to the role than Lomax is.
    And you have just highlighted the entire problem. To facilitate BB we have to drop one of our better players or play him out of position. With such a poor squad it seems nobody is prepared to do that. The timing of the BB signing was critical as it sent a message that the club were ambitious.........problem is it causes more problems than it actually solves. It smacks of a Salford signing 3 seasons ago rather than Castleford's recent recruitment which is what we should be aping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    If Smith gets dropped on form I wouldn't argue with that because he has been poor. But on the basic principle of dropping players who are out of form he might consider himself unlucky. There are half a dozen players who have been playing way below what we need and of those so far only Amor has suffered the consequences. Our squad isn't deep enough to drop everyone who hasn't been playing well.
    It doesn't help when a players in decent/good form (Richardson & Fages) are dropped for no other reason than to accommodate other players who are either picked out of position seemingly just to squeeze them in somewhere (Lomax) or picked despite the form over the season being poor (Smith). Smacks of Cunninghamesque shitfestery.

    I also agree with criticism of Amor's continued use of social media. He's been dropped because he's been playing half-arsed and as a result been ineffective and letting the fans down. Show a bit of humility, man, instead of playing the 'Hey, everyone laugh at me... I'm having a hair cut. Durrrr'.

    We have the players to win the GF, but are throwing it away in an incredibly frustrating way. Worse, we're letting that bunch of sh*t-munching inbreds from pieland in with a chance of making the top 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulx2 View Post
    And you have just highlighted the entire problem. To facilitate BB we have to drop one of our better players or play him out of position. With such a poor squad it seems nobody is prepared to do that. The timing of the BB signing was critical as it sent a message that the club were ambitious.........problem is it causes more problems than it actually solves. It smacks of a Salford signing 3 seasons ago rather than Castleford's recent recruitment which is what we should be aping.
    I see where you're coming from to a certain extent in that it has caused a headache and a reshuffle. However I also agree with other posters who have said we simply had to take a chance on someone like Barba. Had we not gone for him and he'd signed elsewhere and then Lomax broke down injured the following week, everyone on here would be criticizing the club for not showing ambition.

    I am a fan of Lomax and I rate him but Barba is simply a better player and I think the club were right to sign him. Also, Lomax isn't the most reliable people in terms of durability and so I do think it was a position we were right to look at.
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    I just want tonight to be the end of this debate. It's gone on for weeks and weeks and it's getting repetitive. Whatever combination he goes with tonight he needs to stick with IMO. Dropping half backs every week and bringing them back in isn't good for anyone, it's not good for the players and it's not good for the team and especially at this time of the season. Whoever he wants in the spine, stick with it and give them a chance to build some sort of combination.

    Let's be honest, we aren't talking about world class International halves here. Richardson was poor v Cas and Hull IMO, Fages has had some shockers, Smith has definitely had some shockers. None of them are complete players. They've all had bad games and will have bad games but the swapping and changing needs to stop here for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulx2 View Post
    And you have just highlighted the entire problem. To facilitate BB we have to drop one of our better players or play him out of position. With such a poor squad it seems nobody is prepared to do that. The timing of the BB signing was critical as it sent a message that the club were ambitious.........problem is it causes more problems than it actually solves. It smacks of a Salford signing 3 seasons ago rather than Castleford's recent recruitment which is what we should be aping.
    Given Lomax has the ability to cover FB, centre and both HB positions (plus potentially hooker), we should be using his utility value and put him on the bench. Reinstate the HB combination that's looked by far the most capable (DR & TF) and let Smith stay in the stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Are you not contradicting yourself a bit here? Barba is no more of a 6 than Lomax is so is similarly a square peg in a round hole. I'm not saying Barba wouldn't necessarily do well at 6 but like I said, he's no more familiar to the role than Lomax is.
    In a way yes. But as overall value to the team, I believe that Lomax at 1 and Barba at 6 is better than the other way round. Last weeks experiment didn't work, so something needs to give. These high pressure games aren't the time to be experimenting though, especially with wholesale changes to key positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1964 View Post
    Yep and if it is the side,well at least we have a coach now who is prepared to change things,not be set in his ways and admit he made a mistake,fingers crossed it is,can't remember the last time i was so intrigued about what the team will be,i just feel with that team we will win tonight,Matty Smith back in the halves makes it 50-50
    I hope he does leave Smith out. Fages on the bench gives a lot of possible permutations later in the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    IHowever, I don't think Lomax has been nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to think so I'm not too worried about sticking with him.
    He's had some great games at FB, but against both Hull & Leeds was really poor (against Hull, he looked completely shot from early on). As a SO, he just isn't anywhere near good enough.

    My worry is that even if JH reinstates the DR-TR combination, they might not rekindle the best aspects of the partnership, which was developing really well (40+ points against each of Cats & Wakey; 26 away at Cas). Or, worse, if they don't click in their first game back together, JH throws Smith back in either in the game or next game. Smith's quicker-than-expected recovery from his eye injury came at a really bad time. I think with him still on the sidelines, we'd have won at least 2 of the last 3, and his return was simply a disruption to our improved game style, our team spirit & our confidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    I see where you're coming from to a certain extent in that it has caused a headache and a reshuffle. However I also agree with other posters who have said we simply had to take a chance on someone like Barba. Had we not gone for him and he'd signed elsewhere and then Lomax broke down injured the following week, everyone on here would be criticizing the club for not showing ambition.

    I am a fan of Lomax and I rate him but Barba is simply a better player and I think the club were right to sign him. Also, Lomax isn't the most reliable people in terms of durability and so I do think it was a position we were right to look at.
    I think you're right it terms of BB being quality and I genuinely don't know how much he is costing the club but I assume it must be a bundle. If that is the case, I would rather we had looked at less glamorous signings in order to beef things up before the 8's. I just think that if you look at Salford as an example, they have tried the superstar route and got nowhere but recently have been more successful in recruiting lesser known players. Catalan are now facing up to their appalling recruitment policy too.
    I mean look at Robert Lui...............awful, truly awful for the Cowboys.........first year he leaves and they win the NRL Grand Final..............comes over here and looks like Thurston. The comp we have is pretty poor and we don't necessarily need the top, top, top players...............we need those with a winning mentality and those that have a point to prove and want to win and I just think paying BB the amount a suspect we are makes it much harder for us to get the type of players we really need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. Are we really blaming refs before we have even kicked off now? If we don't beat Wakefield and if we don't qualify for the semi-finals it will be because we haven't been good enough.
    Not at all. I'm just saying that they will get everything and we need to accept that and not lose our heads. Good sides will take the referee out of the contest and win the game regardless

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    Drop Smith & bring Fages & Richardson in, It would of course mean that Lomax would miss out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Mullers 1988 View Post
    Drop Smith & bring Fages & Richardson in, It would of course mean that Lomax would miss out.
    Horses for courses

    Lomax is not a specialist half and Barba now first pick at the back

    Lets hope JH doesnt fall into the trap of playing players out of position to accomodate senior pros or egos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    I wouldn't disagree but it is not something we can know for sure. Lots of other players in the last three games have performed at a level way below what they produced against Wakefield last time and at Castleford. It's not certain that a Fages-Richardson halfback combination would have made the difference. On balance though I think I would have given Fages at least the opportunity. I'm not totally convinced by Richardson yet. The way people talk about him it's like he's Sean Long and that leaving him out is complete lunacy. It's not. It's arguable whether he should be in or not I think.
    I agree mate. I don't think I sae enough to suggest they should be automatic starters in this team at the minute. They both struggle with their decision making, I saw 20 mins or so of the reserves game last week and Richardson bombed two tries when I was watching. Wakefield and Catalan are very different to Leeds, Wigan and Hull and that goes for the team as a whole. Some of those scored against the former were 50 metre bursts. They're probably more likely to produce individual pieces of play though, against Hull we didn't look like scoring but Fages' set a couple up from nothing. Some simple tried weren't scored though. Obviously Richardson went off before half time v Cas.

    I like Fages on the bench but he needs to be used early. He's quick, good feet, goood support player, I'd actually like to see him as a 13 buzzing around the middle.

    I'm probably a bit biased towards Jonny but thought he did a decent job against Wigan. He was given some shocking ball but everything Saints did well went through him. Fair effort given he hasn't played in the halves in years. He's a leader within the team as well.

    Richardson's the right choice for tonight though. There's gonna be a lot of space for Saints tonight, it's won't be like last week. It's whether we can make the most of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    If Lui is a superstar what do you think Barba will do to Super League if he hits top form? A gamble worth taking I'd say given that he is a marquee signing meaning that regardless of what we are actually paying him, he only affects the cap to a certain extent.
    I'm not saying Lui is a superstar............that's my point. But in a work man like Super league team with a pack that does some grunt he stands out a mile and nobody would have thought that when they signed him.

    I reckon a BB can only be as effective as the halves he is playing with and the pack he is playing behind.............at the moment, they are still the problem areas and its been like that for years. You look at the Sharks team he played with last season...................the pack was immense with Gallen, Fifita, Ennis, Lewis, Prior............any fullback playing off the back of that lot has a great chance to change close games. Not so easy with the power puff mob that Saints are putting out at present. I mean, more in depth surgery is required.

    In my opinion there's not much point in putting lashings of icing and a great big juicy glace cherry on top of a poo pie but I reckon that's what we are trying to do by signing BB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Sorry, you said he looked like Thurston who is a superstar. I don't think we are going to come to an agreement on this but I can't get my head around the idea that you pick a weaker player at fullback because you have flaws in your team elsewhere. If Barba hits top form he can only make the side better. There is no other possible outcome. I know that it has led to a lot of chopping and changing and uncertainty about what our best team is but it's not as if we had a brilliant, settled team before Barba arrived. It needed something, and he may or may not be it. He's not the solution by himself, but he can't do any harm unless he starts to display disruptive behaviours. On quality alone he must play.
    I agree we'll have to disagree but I hope you are right and I am wrong. It just smacked of desperation to me at a point in the season where it looked like the fans were going to really turn on the club. It hasn't worked out well to date but if he turns it on next season and stays for the full 2 years I'll bow to your point of view. I do at this point have to say though that as my wife says.............I am never wrong!!

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