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Thread: Widnes moving?

  1. #26
    In The South Stand Paul Newlove's Avatar
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    I worry for the likes of Salford, they're second in the league and doing better than they have done for years but barely anyone wants go. Businesses can't run like this and Koukash won't keep pouring money into with no sign of self sufficiency. Unfortunately the future for some clubs may be part time Championship clubs, it's sad for the game but I'd sooner that than see a club disappear. If this happened a strong championship would have be trumpeted by the RFL with a proper tv deal.

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    This is a subject that splits people. If you like the history of SL you want to see Widnes continue, but then where do you stop with that. Should the RFL have helped Bradford more or other 'clubs with a history' if they struggle. Then what about clubs struggling without a successful history?
    The fact is, it's a business based sport. The truth IMO is I think the RFL are looking to change the league structures again. I think that they are leaning to getting the likes of Toronto and Toulouse into the 'big time'. If that means losing Widnes and their 3.500 followers they will live with the brief outrage. In someways I agree with that idea, (but my heart thinks it stinks) but then I support a club that won't be threatened. For the SL to be attractive to fans and sponsors it needs to be exciting, competive and have good crowds. If the RFL can manipulate the league so it becomes that they will. I think everyone knows trying to expand within the UK is a lost cause. North America, and another French team seems a viable option. Or at least it can't fail any worse than all the other attempts to expand into Wales etc.
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    Absolutely spot on with regards to Toulouse and Toronto, Toulouse are unlikely to make super league just yet, however Toronto I'd expect to see in the middle eights next year and taking Super League sides on.

    If either of them win promotion, at least they've earnt the right to do so

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Because franchising was a massive success outside RL areas such as Paris, South Wales, Gateshead etc

    Oh, hang on...
    Paris aside, none of those had any real potential or the correct financial backing. The RFL were just taken in by a PDF business plan and a guy with a million quid in his bank account. Obviously there needs to be a severe vetting procedure for any franchise purchases, but if they can attract the right investor and the right clubs to come into the competition it could be successful.

    Do I want to lose Widnes and Wakefield? Not particularly, I have fond memories of both clubs and I'd also love to see club like Bradford and Halifax back and competing in Super League. But money talks and at the moment the sport has absolutely none of it. It might not be a case of lose Widnes to a franchise sale or keep them. It might well be a case of lose Widnes either way and it's just about what you do to replace them. Promote another soon to be bankrupt club with no future?

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    Widnes has already moved, from Lancashire into Cheshire. Or they kid themselves that hey have because they want to sound posh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Because franchising was a massive success outside RL areas such as Paris, South Wales, Gateshead etc

    Oh, hang on...
    And how do we spread the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Seems to me that they are really pushing the intercontinental bit at the moment. We could have Toulouse in the competition next season as well as Catalans and Toronto would be the obvious purchasers of Widnes' place in Super League.

    Then, if they also got rid of Wakefield, Salford (Replaced by a Manchester club) and Huddersfield we'd have a decent competition.
    Can you imagine a Superleague with Salford, Huddersfield, Catalans, Toulouse and Toronto, on home games for half the season we could close the East Stand because there will hardly be any away fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Paris aside, none of those had any real potential or the correct financial backing. The RFL were just taken in by a PDF business plan and a guy with a million quid in his bank account. Obviously there needs to be a severe vetting procedure for any franchise purchases, but if they can attract the right investor and the right clubs to come into the competition it could be successful.

    Do I want to lose Widnes and Wakefield? Not particularly, I have fond memories of both clubs and I'd also love to see club like Bradford and Halifax back and competing in Super League. But money talks and at the moment the sport has absolutely none of it. It might not be a case of lose Widnes to a franchise sale or keep them. It might well be a case of lose Widnes either way and it's just about what you do to replace them. Promote another soon to be bankrupt club with no future?
    I think you've just hit the nail on the head, rugby league has no money, so how do we reverse this? We are not likely to increase attendances significantly enough to make us rich, so investment is the only way. Businesses are unlikely to invest in a NW sport so we need to look more national or global. Rugby league is played in moremcountries than ever before, albeit at a low standard in many of those places, we have promising options such as Toulouse and Toronto but apart from that it's a chicken and egg. No widespread teams playing no investors, no investors no money, no money failed franchises etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Can you imagine a Superleague with Salford, Huddersfield, Catalans, Toulouse and Toronto, on home games for half the season we could close the East Stand because there will hardly be any away fans.
    I understand but wha options do we have? We don't have lots and lots of fans coming to home games let alone travelling, for me this is a hazard we may have to put up with to improve the wider game.

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    There are some very interesting observations made on this thread. Someone spoke of the fan base dying off and this should not be underestimated. The vast majority of people I know personally who are lifelong Saints die hards are well over 60 now and whilst many still attend regularly there are others who, for health reasons, don't attend as often as they would like, me included. Look at the attendance for the recent Wigan game - just over 13,000. We had a new coach in place, we had just hammered Hull, signed Ben Barba and it was glorious weather. I remember times when, given those circumstances, the stadium would have been bursting at the seams.

    I despair at the RFL's obsession with expansionism. I have been around long enough to see that, apart from Catalans, it has never really worked. In this country RL will always be eclipsed by RU whether we like it or not. Our major cities such as London, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool as examples have demonstrated they won't support RL to any serious degree. In Australia RL is on a par with RU partly due to the fact that it is a major sport in the largest centres of population such as Sydney and Brisbane and even competes well against Aussie Rules in Melbourne. I firmly believe we should forget the notion of expansionism, recognise that we are, by and large, a north of England sport and focus our attention on ensuring that those clubs which form the bedrock of our sport continue to exist and operate on a successful and economically viable footing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I understand but wha options do we have? We don't have lots and lots of fans coming to home games let alone travelling, for me this is a hazard we may have to put up with to improve the wider game.
    I think the RFL have run out of options now, the fan base will die off especially from the 40, 50, 60 year olds who can remember the quality of players we,ve had compared to the abysmal number of class players we have now. We have also have the terrible inconsistency of referees which are now directly effecting the outcome of games, add in the mix of a salary cap that can;t compete with the NRL and Union then you have a cocktail for a dying sport at full professional level with limited sponsors and media coverage.

    There is a possibility the wider game will grow in Canada but for the UK we are what we are, a second rate sport.

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    Learning All The Songs bewareshadows's Avatar
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    Any merger talk is pointless if Widnes fail then any fans wanting to keep watch live rl will naturally move to watching saints or Warrington over a period of years. Similarly to how Bradford soaked up local support from other teams.


    It does sound like someone is sniffing about to get a leg up into SL, but would they be able to bring that amateur set up with themy? or is the expectation that saints and wire will maintain that local development?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    The issues you raise will not be solved by expansion They will be solved only by getting the product right on the field. Wrestling, too many interchanges and other factors have diluted the entertainment. That, and the advent of Thursday night games have had an effect on attendances. That's why we get 13000 for a home game with Wigan after the Hull game and the signing of Barba. We won't sort that by sacking off Widnes and Salford and plonking a team from Manchester or Newcastle in the league. They'll still be playing five drives and a kick. The game needs a revolution tactically and that would be assisted by another look at the rules.
    Diluted and fragmentation is always a descriptor of todays game, we can't create expansion with those parameters heavy against succeeding. Like you say there needs to be a significant shift in how the game is played, controlled and marketed, SKY has made the game a bit insular and is not helping the dilution by dictating schedules which could be Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and maybe Monday.

    Our game against the Goons on Thursday night of 13000 was about 3000 shy, it was noticeable the East Stand was poorly occupied maybe an injury ravaged Goon team, Thursday night schedule was a factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    It makes you wonder if Widnes have finance problems, they don't have big crowds and seem reluctant to sign better players and a coach. They have stagnated into the bottom 4 again and don't inspire confidence to change, maybe it is a bit of propaganda to stir up some investment interest.
    Is Steve O'Connor trying to bail out? Because he's got serious money - here's his house (valued at £4.75m... and that doesn't include his helicopter)

    http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/ho...-pool-11329344



    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I think you've just hit the nail on the head, rugby league has no money, so how do we reverse this? We are not likely to increase attendances significantly enough to make us rich, so investment is the only way. Businesses are unlikely to invest in a NW sport so we need to look more national or global. Rugby league is played in moremcountries than ever before, albeit at a low standard in many of those places, we have promising options such as Toulouse and Toronto but apart from that it's a chicken and egg. No widespread teams playing no investors, no investors no money, no money failed franchises etc.
    I think you're spot on.

    For all people drone on about giving 'traditional' clubs a go in SL, most simply couldn't cut it and would just lower the overall quality of the competition. Every so often, a club like Leigh will have the financial backing, enthusiastic fan base & ambition to make the leap - although I don't see them threatening the Super 8's (and are more likely to bustle around in mostly positions 9-12 for a few seasons before falling away again).

    To date, efforts to expand have fallen down, but without trying to make it work, we're just stuck on a merry-go-round of seeing too-small clubs in parochial, small northern towns failing to crack SL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    The issues you raise will not be solved by expansion They will be solved only by getting the product right on the field. Wrestling, too many interchanges and other factors have diluted the entertainment. That, and the advent of Thursday night games have had an effect on attendances. That's why we get 13000 for a home game with Wigan after the Hull game and the signing of Barba. We won't sort that by sacking off Widnes and Salford and plonking a team from Manchester or Newcastle in the league. They'll still be playing five drives and a kick. The game needs a revolution tactically and that would be assisted by another look at the rules.
    Whilst people are obsessed with the quick play of the ball we will continue to see five drives and a kick, why not 10 easy yards each time, slow the ruck, keep the whistle in the pocket and the games will have more tension.

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    The real decline for the future may be with young people today and the way youth rugby is not anyway near as successful as it used to be, will young people be the supporters of the future? there are far more alternatives these days and that is not going to change as far as I can see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    Whilst people are obsessed with the quick play of the ball we will continue to see five drives and a kick, why not 10 easy yards each time, slow the ruck, keep the whistle in the pocket and the games will have more tension.
    I think you're in a very small minority.

    Most people would end up bringing a book to while away the tedium as an 'arm wrestle' grind sees each PTB take 2 minutes due to 4/5/6 blokes rolling round on the floor after each tackle. Sue you're not a rugby yawnion fan here on the wind-up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybs View Post
    The real decline for the future may be with young people today and the way youth rugby is not anyway near as successful as it used to be, will young people be the supporters of the future? there are far more alternatives these days and that is not going to change as far as I can see.
    I see many many more youth players now than when I was playing n the 80s. There was one league per age group now there are four.
    Kids playing isn't the issue. I remember many dire games at saints in the 80s, attendances were fewer also.
    Your right though, many more options for their attention, video games, football very strong, other sports etc.
    How do we convert them to watching regularly? Is 8pm kick off too late?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I see many many more youth players now than when I was playing n the 80s. There was one league per age group now there are four.
    Kids playing isn't the issue. I remember many dire games at saints in the 80s, attendances were fewer also.
    Your right though, many more options for their attention, video games, football very strong, other sports etc.
    How do we convert them to watching regularly? Is 8pm kick off too late?
    Yes, chasing the corporate pound needs to be balanced against larger attendances possible on a sat/sun afternoon

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    I will begin by saying that Widnes moving away certainly isn't the answer. They have never been a hugely well attended club even in the days they were regularly picking up silverware. At best they only drew crowds of eight and nine thousand when the last won the league.

    The current stagnation of the game is down to a multitude of factors.

    Firstly the RFL have just not done enough to improve the financial strength of the sport through weak sponsorship deals and a far too cosy relationship with just one broadcaster. Sky's presentation of the game just hadn't moved on from when they first started broadcasting games in the Pre SL era too.

    In terms of style of play, the switch to a predominant five drives and a kick style of play is a lot purely down to the increase in the number of substitutes and the number of interchanges. Back in the day when only two subs were allowed and less interchanges permitted, substitutions were far more tactical rather than about giving players especially the forwards a rest. Too many coaches have simply gone down a route of having four forwards on the bench or a mixture of three props/secondrowers and an interchange hooker. This has been highly detrimental to the game being less easy on the eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parrsaint View Post
    I will begin by saying that Widnes moving away certainly isn't the answer. They have never been a hugely well attended club even in the days they were regularly picking up silverware. At best they only drew crowds of eight and nine thousand when the last won the league.

    The current stagnation of the game is down to a multitude of factors.

    Firstly the RFL have just not done enough to improve the financial strength of the sport through weak sponsorship deals and a far too cosy relationship with just one broadcaster. Sky's presentation of the game just hadn't moved on from when they first started broadcasting games in the Pre SL era too.

    In terms of style of play, the switch to a predominant five drives and a kick style of play is a lot purely down to the increase in the number of substitutes and the number of interchanges. Back in the day when only two subs were allowed and less interchanges permitted, substitutions were far more tactical rather than about giving players especially the forwards a rest. Too many coaches have simply gone down a route of having four forwards on the bench or a mixture of three props/secondrowers and an interchange hooker. This has been highly detrimental to the game being less easy on the eye.
    I think the subs rule has contributed to those tactics but not the entire reason.

    Two subs seems like so long ago now, when you came on you stayed on

    I doubt they will go back to two with the pace of the game, but I hope they reduce the amount of interchanges

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upside View Post
    I think the subs rule has contributed to those tactics but not the entire reason.

    Two subs seems like so long ago now, when you came on you stayed on

    I doubt they will go back to two with the pace of the game, but I hope they reduce the amount of interchanges
    I can't see them going back to two subs either. I will maintain though that the issue of having four subs and the number of interchanges has led over time to a situation where its far too easy for any coach to play forwards in 20 minute stints and a less creative game. As much as we have less creative backs playing the game, the forwards are far less adept these days in terms of offloading in the tackle and few can play anything like a full 80 minutes.

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    Every time a team struggles we try to change the rules and structure. If we want good teams at the top who win games then we need bad teams at the bottom who lose games. That is what sport is. It seems that Rugby League is determined to have a league were all the teams are 50/50, with none truly good and none truly bad. That is the road to utter tedium, because a league with an equality of talent leads to a league of mediocrity.

    The NRL has teams at the bottom who are not at the level of those in the Top 3 or 4. Is there anything wrong in Newcastle and Wests being nowhere near as good as Melbourne and Cronulla? Of course not. So, I see no issue with Widnes being a bit crap at present, because that's life. Somebody has to be bottom, somebody has to be second from bottom, etc. But in RL being bottom means that the club is 'failing' and that we need to change things to either give them a better chance or kick them out. And for what? So that another team comes in and then another team ends up in 12th? What do we do with them then? And on and on we go.

    We keep making wild presumptions that our game is brilliant and that there are untapped masses just waiting to take it to their hearts. Whether it be Paris, South Wales, Coventry, Newcastle, Toronto or wherever, there's an assumption that plonking a team there will mean that people will flock to it, stick with it and turn the area into a RL hotbed. So far, we have a 0% success rate. Toronto get decent crowds, but why do we suppose that they will stick around once the buzz of something new has disappeared? Why do we suppose that Canadians will remain invested in playing a game against teams from medium sized towns in Northern England? But we seem determined already to get them into SL as quickly as possible, with the obvious end result of throwing out a team here.

    So, suppose we get rid of Widnes and end up with a SL with Toronto in it. Will we then see Huddersfield replaced by Toulouse? Wakefield replaced by a Midlands club? It could go on and on until we're left with Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Hull, Warrington and a load of clubs in areas with no cultural attachment to the game. It may work, but how do we know? Some will say 'you can't find out unless you try!' and that's an argument. But suppose it doesn't work. Once you write off a club and write off RL as a relevant sport in an area with a RL culture you kill things. You kill the youth set-up beneath the professional level because it has no funding. You kill the desire of young kids to get into the game because they have no top level local club to dream of playing for, and you alienate the very people that you should be protecting, namely the long term fans of a RL community. Some think the risk is worth it, I don't.

    RU is a good example of how to do things well. Saracens are the European Champions yet average less than 10,000 a game. There is no call to ditch them because they get crap crowds. Newcastle, Sale and Worcester average 6-8,000 a game, and people accept it because those clubs are there on merit and those average crowds are par for the course. The RU Prem perennially has clubs at the top who are in a different league talent wise to the teams at the bottom, yet nobody thinks this is weird or cause to rip up the structure.

    Instead of trying to remove clubs the RFU simply see it as an accepted state of how club RU is, and they instead focus their energies on improving crowds at the clubs who have bigger fanbases like Leicester, Wasps and Northampton. RU has grown and grown at club level in the last decade despite having a top division with clubs that get attendances on par or fractionally higher than Wakefield, Widnes and Castleford. How on earth can they get TV deals with BT worth £270m over 6 years (compared to £182m over 5 that we got from Sky) when they have Worcester and Sale averaging 6-7,000? How on earth can they get a TV deal with Channel 5 to show live games on FTA TV when they have Bristol losing 19 of 22 games this season? We all know the reasons... because that is sport. Some teams succeed, some fail, and each season can be different. Some clubs get good crowds, some get crap crowds, some have bigger catchment areas, some have smaller ones. It happens, and RU is no different to RL in that respect.

    We need to start accepting some of the things about our sport that are average, both on and off the field. Being average is what some clubs are, and provided that they sit beneath several clubs who are good there should be no problems. Wigan and Leeds should average 15,000 plus per game. Saints, Hull and Wire should average 12-13,000 a game. If they don't then that is the fault of the clubs, the game in general and the RFL. Try and work out why, and realise that the ills of the game are not caused by Widnes being average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Every time a team struggles we try to change the rules and structure. If we want good teams at the top who win games then we need bad teams at the bottom who lose games. That is what sport is. It seems that Rugby League is determined to have a league were all the teams are 50/50, with none truly good and none truly bad. That is the road to utter tedium, because a league with an equality of talent leads to a league of mediocrity.

    The NRL has teams at the bottom who are not at the level of those in the Top 3 or 4. Is there anything wrong in Newcastle and Wests being nowhere near as good as Melbourne and Cronulla? Of course not. So, I see no issue with Widnes being a bit crap at present, because that's life. Somebody has to be bottom, somebody has to be second from bottom, etc. But in RL being bottom means that the club is 'failing' and that we need to change things to either give them a better chance or kick them out. And for what? So that another team comes in and then another team ends up in 12th? What do we do with them then? And on and on we go.

    The problem is when it's the same clubs perpetually struggling. Their fans become disillusioned & stop going, the club struggles for money, recruitment drops off, results get even worse, etc.

    In the NRL the best clubs change - I remember Newcastle being THE team not that long ago.

    I agree that trying to even things up too much isn't going to work, but this season we see two unfashionable sides whose average gates are well down on the usual final-contesters, topping the table - and it's a breath of fresh air. Could they have done this without the levelling effect of the Cap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    The problem is when it's the same clubs perpetually struggling. Their fans become disillusioned & stop going, the club struggles for money, recruitment drops off, results get even worse, etc.
    The same can be said for the likes of Newcastle, Bristol, London Irish etc in RU really. The genuine threat of relegation, coupled with the excitement of a promotion bid when they go down means that these perennial strugglers always seem to have stuff to play for. I think we maybe under-estimate the factor that no P&R had in terms of crowds.

    If you are a fan of a club that hovers around the bottom 4, but couldn't get relegated in the previous system now arrogantly assumes is probably too good to not do well in the Middle 8s in the current system it produces apathy. Hull KR are averaging more or less the same this season in the Championship as they did in the SL when you would have expected crowds to fall. The shock of relegation and the challenge of a promotion bid has re-energised that fanbase. But had they simply stayed up from the Middle 8s I reckon their average crowd would have been smaller this season in SL.

    A proper 2 up, 2 down P&R would IMO produce higher attendances.

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