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Thread: Credit to an injury hit Wigan

  1. #51
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    Bit of a mixed game to say the least.

    The big thing for me was being 6-14 behind. At the time I was head in hands despairing at the same old same old false dawn, but rather than capitulating and going into half time 20 points behind, they were able to pick themselves back up, and find a way to (almost) even it up by halftime. Poor performance aside, that attitude change is key.

    Not going to bag individual performances, it was a team win that one. Holbrook has now seen the Jeykll and Hyde nature of the team he's inherited!

  2. #52
    In The West Stand Ralph Fridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I thought Douglas was poor throughout when carrying - too soft on impact, going to ground to easily. Tell you what, though, that dirty tw*t MacIllorum didn't pull out with the knees to the head when Douglas went to drop on that loose ball. Very unconvinced overall with Douglas. There've been a few games where I've thought "that's the player I was expecting" when he's run strong & put a shift in, but others like tonight where he's been Richardsesque in his lack of dynamism in attack.

    One of the best atmospheres at LP/TTWS yet. I was in the north stand cos I'd taken the missus & our youngest, and even there it was lively at times.

    WRT to the drop goal attempts, the kicker wasn't far from level with us and both times the piescum were even more offside than usual. to close it down. Bent-than, of course, just let it go.




    I think you're being unfair. He's barely put a foot wrong, and both (yeah, just two that I can think of!) handling errors came after questionable 'tackles' on him. His defence has been a million times better than I'd expected, too. What's frustrating me is the lack of service he's getting. Numerous times there's been the situation where a bit of space has developed on our left edge and Percival and Taia have both been guilty of using Grace as a foil to try to make the break themselves rather than get the ball to him with some clean air in front of him. I was tearing my hair out at Taia last night late in the game before Percy got the winner. We had numbers on the left and Taia needed to run straight, pin his man, and slip it to Percival to do the same & pass to Grace who I'd have bet my trousers on blazing through to score. Instead, Taia ran diagonally (crowding out the space that had developed), tried to beat his man, then, when tackled, belatedly thought to offload but dropped the ball. Thought the game was gone then. Stupid, dumb, selfish play.

    Saying all that, I don't want to burn Grace out, as he's a talent.
    I agree with you regarding Grace. Think he needs to be cut some slack. He's a speedster and should be allowed to develop.
    Swifty was decent last night, just always seems to have a big mistake in him but it was a poor pass from Walmsley initially that led to that.

    I think the key difference is, we are making mistakes still, but we are keeping our heads up and battling on. That wasn't happening before

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    Could not agree more, listening to the post match interview you would think he was born in St Helens
    I was grinning and a tingle went down my back seeing him so passionate at the end. I'm not one for smoltz but I genuinely was pleased and excited with his enthusiasm. If that rubs off on the playing and backroom staff we will be in a much better place.

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHANNEL22 View Post
    When I look at a teamsheet I look at the squad numbers. Wigan had 10 players with numbers 17 or less, so not far off with your 11.
    I think you're both mistaken. 9 of Wigan's first 17 played.
    2 April 2010 - HISTORY CANNOT BE REWRITTEN

  5. #55
    really is sorry Reacher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    I'd hate to see Grace dropped. If there's uncertainty in defence on that side it is at least contributed to by Taia and Percival who often do their own thing. Swift comes up with a howler every week so I don't think he'd be a steadying influence on the other two. Grace is the future and for me Swift is the one who should be worrying about his place when Barba is available.
    Coaches are actively targeting him though. That's the worry.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Coaches are actively targeting him though. That's the worry.
    And so far, hes stood up to the challenge. Hes made a few errors but certainly no more (or more costly) than those made elsewhere on the pitch.

    I would expect every team to target him, just as I would expect Saints to target any other young kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    And so far, hes stood up to the challenge. Hes made a few errors but certainly no more (or more costly) than those made elsewhere on the pitch.

    I would expect every team to target him, just as I would expect Saints to target any other young kid.
    For his age and experience he's doing fine, but the odd mistakes he has made are in bad positions for us running the ball back from a kick. Whether it's the way he carries the ball, or simply his size, I feel that teams will kick to his wing and then make sure they have a couple of big lads in place to be the first ones to hit him to try to force the error.

    I'm not advocating dropping him because Swift isn't exactly error free either, but I did sense last night that Wigan had a 'plan' for him, and were chiming in with two men to force the fumble rather than simply stopping the return as is usually the case. JH will need to make him aware of that.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Coaches are actively targeting him though. That's the worry.
    Grace is losing the ball on that initial first impact and he got a few head shots last night one specifically from Paddy Whack.

    When Lomax comes back I would rest Grace from the firing line for a couple of games and have our usual Makinson and Swift on the wings, but we then must put pressure on Swift to cut out his errors or Grace comes back in for an extensive run. Most probably Lomax will only last a few games though and we re-adjust Makinson to full back.

    I,m pretty sure Grace will be a success and will get stronger and smarter, he's got a lot of years ahead of him so we don't need to keep him in the deep end playing every game this season.

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    Hardly posted in the past, so go easy ha!

    What I did see, is when we were attacking the Wigan line in the second half (seemed like 4-5 consecutive sets), T.M seemed to struggle to pose a real threat. From what I have seen of Barba, this is something that we will really see come to life as it seems he has a knack of wriggling through the line and causing real problems for the opposition, regardless of where he is on the pitch. Some of his breaks are mouthwatering and if he hits the ground running and stays injury free, who knows where we will finish the season. I feel that if he had played last night we would have put a real score on Wigan, as they wouldn't have known what had hit them. Saying that, this isn't a criticism of T.M as he possesses all the other qualities that you want in a FB and has done a sterling job in Lomax's absence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickBateman View Post
    Hardly posted in the past, so go easy ha!

    What I did see, is when we were attacking the Wigan line in the second half (seemed like 4-5 consecutive sets), T.M seemed to struggle to pose a real threat. From what I have seen of Barba, this is something that we will really see come to life as it seems he has a knack of wriggling through the line and causing real problems for the opposition, regardless of where he is on the pitch. Some of his breaks are mouthwatering and if he hits the ground running and stays injury free, who knows where we will finish the season. I feel that if he had played last night we would have put a real score on Wigan, as they wouldn't have known what had hit them. Saying that, this isn't a criticism of T.M as he possesses all the other qualities that you want in a FB and has done a sterling job in Lomax's absence.
    Agreed. The problem with Makinson is that not only does he rarely pass the ball but all too often he runs with the ball in one hand thereby showing the defence that he is not going to pass which provides a much easier position to defend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Agreed. The problem with Makinson is that not only does he rarely pass the ball but all too often he runs with the ball in one hand thereby showing the defence that he is not going to pass which provides a much easier position to defend.

    He'a bit like Ratchford without an offload, surely JH can coach him some passing skills and full back play.

  12. #62
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    If Ben Flower had played they'd have won!

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    Controversial maybe, but a fit Lomax is a better 6 than Fages.

    Quality player, proper rugby brain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    If Ben Flower had played they'd have won!
    By 40 points....


    Back to TM, he seems to have found himself a big fend which is gaining him far more meters than he ever got by just running in Ade Gardner style.
    I was critical of TM after the Warrington game as he and Grace and Swift served up huge errors that lead to tries, but he seems to have got his head back on and is playing some good stuff at the moment.

    Grace and Swift are looking like they will be in the mix competing for places. Both have errors and whilst Grace had a good game v Wigan at the Pie dome, he's starting to get a little more found out. I'm not going to bash him as hopefully he will grow into the role, but also we should not pin one fantastic game on him being the next wonder. We did that with Wheeler and spun one 40 minute spell against Wigan into him being the next big thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    Controversial maybe, but a fit Lomax is a better 6 than Fages.

    Quality player, proper rugby brain.
    Possibly, but will we ever get a fully fit Lomax???

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    By 40 points....


    Back to TM, he seems to have found himself a big fend which is gaining him far more meters than he ever got by just running in Ade Gardner style.
    I was critical of TM after the Warrington game as he and Grace and Swift served up huge errors that lead to tries, but he seems to have got his head back on and is playing some good stuff at the moment.

    Grace and Swift are looking like they will be in the mix competing for places. Both have errors and whilst Grace had a good game v Wigan at the Pie dome, he's starting to get a little more found out. I'm not going to bash him as hopefully he will grow into the role, but also we should not pin one fantastic game on him being the next wonder. We did that with Wheeler and spun one 40 minute spell against Wigan into him being the next big thing.
    What Grace has is real pace and, provided we can find a way of giving him the ball with room to manoeuvre, he has the potential to deliver 30+ tries per season. We need to become smarter in our ball movement and, perhaps, use the scrum restart more frequently as an opportunity for expansive rugby - there won't be any teams happy at the prospect of facing Percival and Grace at scrum time should we start to dispense with a forward driving the ball in as first receiver on every occasion.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    If Ben Flower had played they'd have won!
    That's very decent of you to say so, although I'm not sure. Certainly two or three of Sam & Joel Tomkins, Bateman, Gelling, Gildart etc etc would have helped.

    I've watched the game back this afternoon and it was actually a better quality game than I thought. (I always find it difficult to judge from behind the posts).

    The criticism of the referee I can understand, fancy missing the blatant forward pass from Smith to Zeb Taia in the build up to Saints second try, plus not stopping the game for the head injury to Liam Forsyth? Then letting LMS strip the ball in a two man tackle and giving a knock on when Isa kept hold of the ball!!

    Anyway an enjoyable evening, here's to the next one.
    Last edited by Rogues Gallery; 26th May 2017 at 19:08.

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    Plenty of reminders last night that Holbrook has a lot of work on but beating them like that is always a way to build momentum and to snatch it at the last again is always the best way to do it. We have developed a nice habit of pinching the two points at the death. That's the 3rd time since the stadium opened that I can remember that happening. Greenwood, Josh Jones and now Percival have given us the last laugh right at the end and it's a good habit against the vermin. I do though wish we'd beat the swines on a good Friday.

    I don't think we played particularly intelligently, not helped by the referee letting Wigan get away with absolute murder at the ruck yet again. They truly are the kinds of snidey, anti rugby play but unfortunately we let it get to us. After our roaring start we let them upset our rhythm with their revolting tactics and the weak referee did nothing about it. We failed to complete for (I think) 5 sets in a row which puts us under all kinds of pressure. With the exception of the drop goal, every try Wigan scored was the result of one of our mistakes. Incomplete sets, buying dummies, penalties and not knocking the ball dead.... not much excuse for any of it. With that being said I think our defence is generally pretty good and so it was for long spells last night - they scored points down to us making our lives harder for ourselves.

    It's our attack where we need to improve. We had so much pressure on Wigan's line at the start of the second half and we never looked like we were going to score. Whilst I will (begrudgingly) credit them for digging in and erecting a purple wall, we just didn't do enough and we need some work. Holbrook will improve it over time (or at least implement his ideas) and Barba will massively improve matters. For now, we need to make do and whilst we will meet a lot more teams with a poorer defence than Wigan there will be plenty of games where we need to step it up. We're getting criticism for scoring 3 of our 4 from kicks but I compliment Smith for that, he actually looked like a decent player last night. Our kicking game has been awful this season but there was not much of that last night, he took control and kicked well and put pressure on them. He was very impressive. Percival will get the credit for his brilliant catch and finish but given we were trying to score a drop goal at one point, Smith deserves a lot of credit for excellent improvisation. Our game management was always the best but it was at key times.

    We did really, really well to hang in when it was going against us and the whole stadium seemed to be buzzing and fired up. Onto the next game - with a ten day rest too.
    Last edited by The Verminator; 26th May 2017 at 18:58.
    WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF POOR BEN FLOWER?!

  19. #69
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    Really entertaining game, and it doesn't get much better than beating Wigan in the last few minutes. It wasn't a perfect performance, and at times we looked a bit short of ideas in attack. We were ok in defence. There was good commitment and we showed an ability to win a close game having lost so many this year.

    I would have been concerned if we would have lost to a Wigan side without so many of their first team, but now we are only 1 point behind them, and Wane looked a little panicked in his post-match interview.

    Much to be positive for us.

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    Cracking full blooded match last night thoroughly enjoyed it!!! I was entertained!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    That's very decent of you to say so, although I'm not sure. Certainly two or three of Sam & Joel Tomkins, Bateman, Gelling, Gildart etc etc would have helped.



    'whooosh!'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    That's very decent of you to say so, although I'm not sure. Certainly two or three of Sam & Joel Tomkins, Bateman, Gelling, Gildart etc etc would have helped.

    I've watched the game back this afternoon and it was actually a better quality game than I thought. (I always find it difficult to judge from behind the posts).

    The criticism of the referee I can understand, fancy missing the blatant forward pass from Smith to Zeb Taia in the build up to Saints second try, plus not stopping the game for the head injury to Liam Forsyth? Then letting LMS strip the ball in a two man tackle and giving a knock on when Isa kept hold of the ball!!

    Anyway an enjoyable evening, here's to the next one.
    Glad you enjoyed it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I thought Holbrook nailed it when he said we were "clunky" with the ball. Seems a very apt description. As others have said we saw plenty to be positive about but still some worries. However the new coach has only been here a week and it will take a while to improve the attack. We look clueless at times near to the line, side to side with no end product. The first time we do something different, Percy comes back on the angle and no one lays a finger on him.

    I think we also need Tommy to go back to wing and Swift the other. Grace is still learning at this level and it shows. He is all over the place defensively and doesn't know whether to drop back, come up, hold his position or not. It is creating uncertainty down that side defensively now. He has a few errors in him. He can gain some confidence back in the Reserves and build on his experience.

    Smith kicked well too last night. Also in the last 10 mins he was noticeably geeing up the crowd and players, he seems more of a leader to me than Wilkin, definitely experienced enough to cope with games like that. Walmsley was immense. He normally doesn't always play well against Wigan, I know they have a very specific way of dealing with him that involvoes their players putting their bodies on the line and hitting him very quickly. However apart from his daft offload last night, he was excellent. Took a lot of carries and made some big metres.

    Finally though I will give Wigan some credit. They are a dirty grubby horrible side but let's be fair, they were missing Bateman, Clubb, Gildart, Gelling, Escare, Tomkins, Manfredi and Flower from their 17 and were 3 mins away from beating us at full strength bar Lomax, and away from home. It's why unfortunately with a fully fit 17 I think they'll win the comp. They'll play Cas in a big game and play anti-rugby.
    Not wanting to argue but I think you will totally be proved wrong by the end of the season, my guess saints v salford in the big one we will wait and see

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    That's very decent of you to say so, although I'm not sure. Certainly two or three of Sam & Joel Tomkins, Bateman, Gelling, Gildart etc etc would have helped.

    I've watched the game back this afternoon and it was actually a better quality game than I thought. (I always find it difficult to judge from behind the posts).

    The criticism of the referee I can understand, fancy missing the blatant forward pass from Smith to Zeb Taia in the build up to Saints second try, plus not stopping the game for the head injury to Liam Forsyth? Then letting LMS strip the ball in a two man tackle and giving a knock on when Isa kept hold of the ball!!

    Anyway an enjoyable evening, here's to the next one.

    Can't stop the game for a head injury to a Wigan player. Not much grey matter beneath the skulls in that part of the world

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Can't stop the game for a head injury to a Wigan player. Not much grey matter beneath the skulls in that part of the world
    Did Bent-tham stop the game when Fages went down?

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