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Thread: Wilkin: "Lowest point in 15 years"

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydock Saint View Post
    You have to remember even with financial support it will not be that simple. You have the salary cap to work to, and then you have players already on contract. So it is not easy to have a wholesale change in players.

    I am hoping Holbrook's coaching skills can improve the players we currently have who have potential, and to improve the team collectively. I think we are suffering from having Kieron Cunningham coaching us for nearly 3 years, and the long term effect this has had in terms of player declining in talent. Hopefully Holbrook can actually improve players and the team like Powell has done at Cas.

    Yes there needs to be new faces, and some shipped out - but overall I would say there is talent to work with (although you may not think this today).
    I agree that it will not be simple even with financial support. I think as good as Holbrook may be, and it remains to be seen whether he has the attributes for Super League, there will have to be recruitment (and good recruitment) to get the club back to where it was 10 years ago. This squad, Holbrook or Jesus Christ, needs some key additions that will cost more than the club has paid out in recent years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulx2 View Post
    No doubts about anything you've said but I just think he could have done all that remotely in combination with a three month off season without having to come into a pretty hopeless, high pressure, no win situation.

    Only time will tell if it was the right decision but I'd liken it to a teacher taking over a poor class with 10 weeks to go before the exams. What can be achieved in that 10 week period? Not much but expectations (realistic or not) will be high simply due to him being a new face.

    Far better to take over from a fresh start IMO

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    Assessment of a player's capabilities takes a lot more than just viewing a couple of videos. Only when you are watching people in the gym, on the training pitch and socialising can you get an accurate measure of their technical capabilities, mental strength and interpersonal skills from which decisions can be made in respect of their abilities to perform certain actions, play to a specific gameplan or be a team leader. Any delay in Holbrook conducting such a skills audit can only impact adversely on next year's squad as it would be totally unrealistic to expect him to decide remotely who we should release and seek as replacements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chalfie View Post
    Far worse players at this club than Wilkin !
    yup

    Jon Wilkin has had far too much stick on here, much of which is unjustified

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    I have always agreed with that johnnyl He was dressed up as the next Scully and he is not that, however he and Robes have tried to pull some bloody awful players along the last few years. His international caps and trophies won tell you quite a bit. Time and history will tell us he has been a good un. "captain no not for me"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Furlongs View Post
    I have always agreed with that johnnyl He was dressed up as the next Scully and he is not that, however he and Robes have tried to pull some bloody awful players along the last few years. His international caps and trophies won tell you quite a bit. Time and history will tell us he has been a good un. "captain no not for me"
    Completely agree

    Overall he has been a very good player for the club who has effectively been critisised for not being Paul Sculthorpe while ***** like Flannery, Lance etc have had people falling over themselves to find good things to say about them

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyl View Post
    Completely agree

    Overall he has been a very good player for the club who has effectively been critisised for not being Paul Sculthorpe while ***** like Flannery, Lance etc have had people falling over themselves to find good things to say about them
    Wilkins had been a very good player for us , the only criticism I have is that he is past his sell by date and shouldn't have got a new contract .

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyl View Post
    Completely agree

    Overall he has been a very good player for the club who has effectively been critisised for not being Paul Sculthorpe while ***** like Flannery, Lance etc have had people falling over themselves to find good things to say about them
    Wilkin has been a good player for us, but how many good games has he had in the last 3 years? As captain he's been very poor and whilst we've got some rubbish around him, players who are alot worse, his own performances can't be excused either.

    He shouldn't have been given a new contract and he's one of several decisions Saints have made in the past few years that haven't worked. Our back row is a mess and its partly because we haven't replaced players who aren't good enough anymore like Wilkin.
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    Wilkin has suffered on the pitch and on discussion boards by having to play most of the latter part of his career out of position and covering in the halves.

    That is not his fault and it probably didn't help his international career either.

    I agree he should really have moved on by now but lets face it as a mid table team attracting good new talent is going to be all the harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Wilkin has been a good player for us, but how many good games has he had in the last 3 years? As captain he's been very poor and whilst we've got some rubbish around him, players who are alot worse, his own performances can't be excused either.

    He shouldn't have been given a new contract and he's one of several decisions Saints have made in the past few years that haven't worked. Our back row is a mess and its partly because we haven't replaced players who aren't good enough anymore like Wilkin.
    I don't disagree mate, but this Wilkin bashing has been going on for a lot longer than this.

    As a club we need to make massive changes IMO, both on and off the field

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Assessment of a player's capabilities takes a lot more than just viewing a couple of videos. Only when you are watching people in the gym, on the training pitch and socialising can you get an accurate measure of their technical capabilities, mental strength and interpersonal skills from which decisions can be made in respect of their abilities to perform certain actions, play to a specific gameplan or be a team leader. Any delay in Holbrook conducting such a skills audit can only impact adversely on next year's squad as it would be totally unrealistic to expect him to decide remotely who we should release and seek as replacements.
    Honestly, I don't need to see if Tommy Lee can handle his ale to know how waz he is.

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    For a start he should have cancelled his punditry yesterday on BBC. It would have sent a good message to the supporters had he or we as a club cancelled. I don't think it's great that he's laughing and joking with Davies a day after that debacle. I know he will be having his days off but it just didn't sit right with me.

    After some Utd losses back in the day, Fergie wouldn't appear for his press conference. He got plenty of criticism but it showed how much of a bad loser and how annoyed he was.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    For a start he should have cancelled his punditry yesterday on BBC. It would have sent a good message to the supporters had he or we as a club cancelled. I don't think it's great that he's laughing and joking with Davies a day after that debacle. I know he will be having his days off but it just didn't sit right with me.

    After some Utd losses back in the day, Fergie wouldn't appear for his press conference. He got plenty of criticism but it showed how much of a bad loser and how annoyed he was.


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    I get where your coming from but I'm not sure that he could easily do that. I'm assuming he has some sort of contract with BBC.
    I guess he could just pull a sicky, but he also has his own future to think about.

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    I honestly felt worse after our Cup humiliation last year. We were at home, Hull were in decent form but no way should have turned us over like they did, and at that stage we were being told that we were on the path to the promised land.

    If you make me choose between a home dusting with KC still at the helm or an away dusting with a new coach coming in then I'll take the second option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    After some Utd losses back in the day, Fergie wouldn't appear for his press conference. He got plenty of criticism but it showed how much of a bad loser and how annoyed he was.

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    This simply doesn't apply to Wilkin I'm afraid. A few months back I made a post about him, where I basically suggested he wasn't that bothered win, lose or draw and playing for Saints is simply a way of earning a living for him. I genuinely don't believe he cares for the club or it's fans in any way and I don't think he has any sort of emotional connection with the club.

    Yes he has served us well over the years (up until the last couple) and he is a committed professional; 99 times out 100 you couldn't question his effort, but he just goes through the motions for me and that's why Saturday's defeat won't have affected him too much personally. He can throw out little soundbites to the media about it being the lowest point of his career bla bla bla, but he would have woke up Sunday morning without a care in the world and gone off to do his bit for the BBC without giving Saints or us lot a second thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    This simply doesn't apply to Wilkin I'm afraid. A few months back I made a post about him, where I basically suggested he wasn't that bothered win, lose or draw and playing for Saints is simply a way of earning a living for him. I genuinely don't believe he cares for the club or it's fans in any way and I don't think he has any sort of emotional connection with the club.

    Yes he has served us well over the years (up until the last couple) and he is a committed professional; 99 times out 100 you couldn't question his effort, but he just goes through the motions for me and that's why Saturday's defeat won't have affected him too much personally. He can throw out little soundbites to the media about it being the lowest point of his career bla bla bla, but he would have woke up Sunday morning without a care in the world and gone off to do his bit for the BBC without giving Saints or us lot a second thought.
    But it is only a job for him, much in the same way most people will laugh off a bad day at work and continue on with life the next day. Why should we expect anyone to go beyond giving their all at work 99 times out of 100?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    But it is only a job for him, much in the same way most people will laugh off a bad day at work and continue on with life the next day. Why should we expect anyone to go beyond giving their all at work 99 times out of 100?
    Not sure if this is tongue in cheek or not to be honest. But in case you're being serious, do you honestly not expect some sort of passion or affinity for the club from our captain?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    I take your point Gray but what is alarming about that is that we are a year on from that Hull FC debacle and we are still taking the same fearful poundings that we were then. It needs ripping up and starting again although I agree with what you said on another thread that this can't be done immediately and that Holbrook will have to trust and try and improve the players he has in the short term.
    Is it really that shocking that a year after Hull we are still not good enough? For 90% of the time in between we've had Cunningham as coach! It will take years to eradicate the damage.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    But it is only a job for him, much in the same way most people will laugh off a bad day at work and continue on with life the next day. Why should we expect anyone to go beyond giving their all at work 99 times out of 100?
    You don't make the number of tackles he does, consistently, if you don't care. He wasn't fit on Saturday but they made the decision to play him. For all the talk, he is someone that the players respect despite certain things that have gone on and that's why he's captain. If he isn't captain, I don't for the life of me see who is. To say he definitively doesn't care and that he would have done this and would have done that doesn't really wash with me to be honest. It's just assumptions made to sound like fact. James Roby says nothing behind the posts, does that mean he doesn't care or isn't a leader? He's a better rugby player than Wilkin but but how do you measure effort accurately? Different when you're stood on the terraces. Knowing him a bit personally, he 100% cares about St Helens. He's a talker on the field in a different type of way.

    He starts on our right edge when fit IMO. Problem Saints have got is that he's one of many others: Richards, Douglas, Walker, Knowles, Amor... they're steady but lack impact. You need a couple but we just have too many. My issue is with the likes of LMS who is physically capable of causing damage but just doesn't do it enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Not sure if this is tongue in cheek or not to be honest. But in case you're being serious, do you honestly not expect some sort of passion or affinity for the club from our captain?
    I am being serious and fail to understand why a professional sportsman should be subjected to a different set of judgemental values than any other worker. He is paid to carry out a job in exactly the same way as someone is employed by Ford Motors, the NHS, Tesco etc. In each case there should be an expectation that the workers do their best without having to publicly mourn if their employers' results are below par while also being exempt from public abuse and ridicule via social media.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    You don't make the number of tackles he does, consistently, if you don't care. He wasn't fit on Saturday but they made the decision to play him. For all the talk, he is someone that the players respect despite certain things that have gone on and that's why he's captain. If he isn't captain, I don't for the life of me see who is. To say he definitively doesn't care and that he would have done this and would have done that doesn't really wash with me to be honest. It's just assumptions made to sound like fact. James Roby says nothing behind the posts, does that mean he doesn't care or isn't a leader? He's a better rugby player than Wilkin but but how do you measure effort accurately? Different when you're stood on the terraces. Knowing him a bit personally, he 100% cares about St Helens.

    He starts on our right edge when fit IMO. Problem Saints have got is that he's one of many others: Richards, Douglas, Walker, Knowles, Amor... they're steady but lack impact. You need a couple but we just have too many.
    Not trying to make anything sounds like fact. I am giving my opinion and my opinion is that he doesn't have any love or passion for the club.

    You can still put in 100% effort as a professional sportsman and make all the tackles in the world without having a particular affinity with the club. I have never once questioned his effort.

    As for the "different when you're stood on the terraces" comment, you're talking like you're the only person to play the game or understand it. I've played the game well over 20 years to a good standard so it's an educated opinion I have, not just some random thought I had one day as you seem to be making out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    You don't make the number of tackles he does, consistently, if you don't care. He wasn't fit on Saturday but they made the decision to play him. For all the talk, he is someone that the players respect despite certain things that have gone on and that's why he's captain. If he isn't captain, I don't for the life of me see who is. To say he definitively doesn't care and that he would have done this and would have done that doesn't really wash with me to be honest. It's just assumptions made to sound like fact. James Roby says nothing behind the posts, does that mean he doesn't care or isn't a leader? He's a better rugby player than Wilkin but but how do you measure effort accurately? Different when you're stood on the terraces. Knowing him a bit personally, he 100% cares about St Helens.

    He starts on our right edge when fit IMO. Problem Saints have got is that he's one of many others: Richards, Douglas, Walker, Knowles, Amor... they're steady but lack impact. You need a couple but we just have too many.
    I do think he cares and agree with everything you have said, also partly based on having met him a couple of times. I believe he gives his all on the vast majority of occasions; as I've commented above, I don't think people have the right to judge him against a set of criteria that differ from those that they would apply if assessing someone else in another job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    I just think that is sport nowadays and for a long time now. It's a job. Do you know that any of the other players care any more than Wilkin does? He just happens to have fronted up the next day to do his job on the BBC and since we can see him and how he acts the next day he is there to be shot at. We don't know what the others were getting up to.
    No of course I don't know it for certain, it's an opinion.

    If we were only allowed to post facts on here then it would be a very quiet place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Not trying to make anything sounds like fact. I am giving my opinion and my opinion is that he doesn't have any love or passion for the club.

    You can still put in 100% effort as a professional sportsman and make all the tackles in the world without having a particular affinity with the club.
    Couldn't you say that about any non local player though? Not having a dig because it's all about opinions and any is valid, just curious as to how you've come to that conclusion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    I am being serious and fail to understand why a professional sportsman should be subjected to a different set of judgemental values than any other worker. He is paid to carry out a job in exactly the same way as someone is employed by Ford Motors, the NHS, Tesco etc. In each case there should be an expectation that the workers do their best without having to publicly mourn if their employers' results are below par while also being exempt from public abuse and ridicule via social media.
    Perhaps we just have different expectations of our players then and in particular our captains. For me he should hurt when we lose just like the fans hurt; but IN MY OPINION I genuinely don't think he does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    Couldn't you say that about any non local player though? Not having a dig because it's all about opinions and any is valid, just curious as to how you've come to that conclusion?
    No and I spoke about this when I first posted my thoughts last year. I will find them and re-post as it's easier than typing it all again.

    EDIT: This is what I wrote last year:

    It's just an opinion I have based on how he comes across. He comes across almost too clinical and cold in his interviews which I interpret as him lacking some passion and love for the club. For example can you imagine him having a rant like Wellens did at the Etihad that time? I might be misreading it of course but that's just how I see it. Like I said, he has been a good professional for us, for 14 years as you point out, but I think you can do that without being particularly passionate for the club and it's fans.

    I always get the impression he is just a good professional who does his job without much feeling or emotion. In other words, his attitude and performance would be the same regardless of which club he was playing for. Personally from a captain and leader and face of our club I'd prefer someone with a genuine connection with the club and it's fans, which for me he lacks massively.

    I think coming through the ranks may be a small factor, but he was with us from quite a young age to be fair. Also, other players have come to us from other clubs, even other countries, and displayed more of the characteristics I mentioned earlier than he has. People like Tommy Martyn, Paul Sculthorpe, Leon Pryce, Chris Joynt, Bobbie Goulding off the top of my head. So I don't think I am judging him this way purely because he didn't come through our youth system.
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