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Thread: Kieron OUT

  1. #101
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    Every single person who pays to watch this shambles is

    a) Condoning it and;
    b) Causing it

    The club will be more than happy to continue as is until they are hit in the pocket.

  2. #102
    Starting A Programme Collection Saintsaregods's Avatar
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    Even though I wanted KC to succeed, I said at the time of his appointment that Saints were backing themselves into a corner if it went wrong due to his rightly deserved legendary status.

    The final straw for me was last good Friday, I have voted with my wallet and feet ever since. I could have gone last night but chose a whiskey tasting evening instead, only cost £15 and had a great time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I agree with you that this squad of players is easily good enough to be a Top 3 team. But it's likely that we won't be, and that falls with the coach. I've gone way past calling for his head, because it won't happen and he is secure, so calling for our coach to quit or be sacked is not a game that is worth playing.

    However, when people like you (and you know I value your opinions) say that he had a clean slate before the season it does us no favours because it lets him off for two seasons of underachievement. This is not a clean slate, it is a coach who has utter belief in his tactics and approach and will run them into a wall continuously because he believes it will eventually work, and he knows he will not be removed for them not working. That creates a massive problem.

    I will ask these questions though. If we fired him or he quit would any of Wigan, Wire, Leeds, Cas or Hull want him the next time they were changing coach? Would he be in with a shout of the England job post-Bennett? Would any NRL clubs want him even as an assistant?

    We all know the answers to those questions, so in reality we have a coach who is in place merely because of who he is and not because of what he can do. Anybody not named Keiron Cunningham would have been well gone by now, even if that person were called Wellens or Sculthorpe or another legendary ex player. He is a complete one off in terms of the time and support he is being given to run his flawed and failing ideas into a wall. We'll have to hope that the ability we have in our team can actually overcome the coaches tactics, and hope that we can achieve stuff in spite of him.

    Terribly depressing business this, because I don't want to be saying this stuff, and have hated saying it for the last year as well.


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    Spot on Grey!
    No clean slate you have to judge him over the 2 years and 3 pre seasons he has had as coach.
    The question I would ask as a chief exec or chairman is what has the progress been like over those 2+ years?
    Are we a better team?
    Have the likes of Luke Thompson Adam Swift even joe greenwood progressed as they would under a decent coach?
    The answer is no!

  4. #104
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    KC the coach is a massive problem. The other problem we have is that we would probably end up with Wellens in charge if/when we do sack KC.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyl View Post
    Every single person who pays to watch this shambles is

    a) Condoning it and;
    b) Causing it

    The club will be more than happy to continue as is until they are hit in the pocket.
    I hope you've got your tin hat on ready for the brickbats and bile from the superspeccies who'd pay to see Cunninghams dog crap on the centre spot.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

  6. #106
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    I'd say we finished 4th last season in spite of KC, he isn't just holding us back he is setting us back years.
    I hate saying this about KC as some of our players shouldn't even be wearing the redvee but he has brought them in, Eammon would have sacked any other coach in world rugby by now.
    We should be in contention for every trophy every season, we are going backwards.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I agree with you that this squad of players is easily good enough to be a Top 3 team. But it's likely that we won't be, and that falls with the coach. I've gone way past calling for his head, because it won't happen and he is secure, so calling for our coach to quit or be sacked is not a game that is worth playing.

    However, when people like you (and you know I value your opinions) say that he had a clean slate before the season it does us no favours because it lets him off for two seasons of underachievement. This is not a clean slate, it is a coach who has utter belief in his tactics and approach and will run them into a wall continuously because he believes it will eventually work, and he knows he will not be removed for them not working. That creates a massive problem.

    I will ask these questions though. If we fired him or he quit would any of Wigan, Wire, Leeds, Cas or Hull want him the next time they were changing coach? Would he be in with a shout of the England job post-Bennett? Would any NRL clubs want him even as an assistant?

    We all know the answers to those questions, so in reality we have a coach who is in place merely because of who he is and not because of what he can do. Anybody not named Keiron Cunningham would have been well gone by now, even if that person were called Wellens or Sculthorpe or another legendary ex player. He is a complete one off in terms of the time and support he is being given to run his flawed and failing ideas into a wall. We'll have to hope that the ability we have in our team can actually overcome the coaches tactics, and hope that we can achieve stuff in spite of him.

    Terribly depressing business this, because I don't want to be saying this stuff, and have hated saying it for the last year as well.


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    Fair comment Gray.I tend to start every season with the clean slate policy and this is no exception it's just a little early for me to see the wood for the trees but I have a feeling we might be doing the same with different players already.
    Learned comment from The Don

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    Fair comment Gray.I tend to start every season with the clean slate policy and this is no exception it's just a little early for me to see the wood for the trees but I have a feeling we might be doing the same with different players already.
    I think that's my thoughts also. Although I think the players (apart from the odd individuals) are getting off lightly. But I guess ultimately even though I am uncomfortable with it KC will be held responsible.
    The other issue is though if he does go who do we replace him with. Powell who people says is the best coach (or flavour of the month) and keep saying he would be good, won't come he has a job. Do we want a temp? Until seasons end. I guess if KC does not improve he will be shown the door, but for whom? I'm not at that point yet, but if he does go I do think the whole staff behind him should to.
    Humans are more concerned with having than being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    I think that's my thoughts also. Although I think the players (apart from the odd individuals) are getting off lightly. But I guess ultimately even though I am uncomfortable with it KC will be held responsible.
    The other issue is though if he does go who do we replace him with. Powell who people says is the best coach (or flavour of the month) and keep saying he would be good, won't come he has a job. Do we want a temp? Until seasons end. I guess if KC does not improve he will be shown the door, but for whom? I'm not at that point yet, but if he does go I do think the whole staff behind him should to.




    Knowing this lot Jon Wilkin will probably finish up being Player Coach.

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    I've not read through every thread and every post however not many have mentioned the fact that the halves were pretty much non existent for the Leigh match. That's not meant to be a criticism of Fages and Richardson, however pretty much everyone on here agreed there would be tough nights, but kieron needs to persist with them. One 'bad day at the office' and everyone is KC out.

    Clearly it's not just the halves, but we were poor in attack and the halves haven't got a mention

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    I've not read through every thread and every post however not many have mentioned the fact that the halves were pretty much non existent for the Leigh match. That's not meant to be a criticism of Fages and Richardson, however pretty much everyone on here agreed there would be tough nights, but kieron needs to persist with them. One 'bad day at the office' and everyone is KC out.

    Clearly it's not just the halves, but we were poor in attack and the halves haven't got a mention
    The forwards were bullied by Leigh,probably why neither of the halves could get into the game.

  12. #112
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    This is just like last season. Our defence was good against Leeds, but non existent against Leigh, why? We have a good group of players (with the odd exception) that should perform well, but they didn't, why? We've let talented youngsters leave, who then play out of their skins for their new clubs, why? I know it's two games in, but KC has had enough time to get the team playing the way he wants. And that's the problem, he doesn't accept that the way he wants them to play is neither attractive or successful, is it? I always wanted KC as coach, but with an experienced coach working with him. I think the reason this didn't happen is that KC would not take advice from anyone and that's the big problem. He thinks he's infallible. watching Warrington and Cas was great, watching us is awful.....again! We have no idea how to play free flowing attacking rugby. Most of our player s are clearly capable of that style, so the bucks stop with KC. Clearly last season's shackles are back on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    I've not read through every thread and every post however not many have mentioned the fact that the halves were pretty much non existent for the Leigh match. That's not meant to be a criticism of Fages and Richardson, however pretty much everyone on here agreed there would be tough nights, but kieron needs to persist with them. One 'bad day at the office' and everyone is KC out.

    Clearly it's not just the halves, but we were poor in attack and the halves haven't got a mention
    Wilkin had his hands on the ball at first or second receiver almost every tackle of every set.
    I'm all for giving Richardson a helping out but if that's the game plan every week he might aswell not even play.
    Let the lad take some control and get Wilkin out the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    I've not read through every thread and every post however not many have mentioned the fact that the halves were pretty much non existent for the Leigh match. That's not meant to be a criticism of Fages and Richardson, however pretty much everyone on here agreed there would be tough nights, but kieron needs to persist with them. One 'bad day at the office' and everyone is KC out.

    Clearly it's not just the halves, but we were poor in attack and the halves haven't got a mention
    It's not just one bad day at the office is it. Fans are seeing that it's the same tactics as last season so although we are only 2 games into the season, people have concluded that things have not changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    Wilkin had his hands on the ball at first or second receiver almost every tackle of every set.
    I'm all for giving Richardson a helping out but if that's the game plan every week he might aswell not even play.
    Let the lad take some control and get Wilkin out the way.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Wilkin's been a great servant of the club, put in a handful of excellent performances during his time here - but he just isn't good enough to control a game & be the chief distributor. That Cunningham has persisted with his 'good buddy' throughout - indeed singing his praises post-match when Wilkin's performance has stunk the place out - has led to people resenting Wilkin. And, of course, our performances & results have suffered through Cunningham making Wilkin the conduit for our play. Even when we had two experienced halfbacks in Walsh & Burns, Wilkin was (presumably under Cunningham's instruction) right there in the middle, either dictating play or getting in the way, whichever way you see it.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraman View Post
    It's not just one bad day at the office is it. Fans are seeing that it's the same tactics as last season so although we are only 2 games into the season, people have concluded that things have not changed.
    Without it being what you would call vintage saints, it was hardly one out rugby with constant drop offs.

    We tried to go wide on a fair few occasions, but our execution was very poor, and the passing so slow. I've not seen the stats, they don't appear to be on superleague website yet, but I reckon our completion rate in the first half was about 50% not to mention the penalty count. Roby absolutely murdered them down the left, Percival was held up with a fantastic tackle by crooks and we had a decent try chalked off for Morgan on the back of a decent move.

    Like I said, it clearly wasn't classic saints throwing the ball around, but we weren't beat because all we tried to do was bang up the middle. We lost because we're totally disorganised, without an organiser in the halves, had smith played last night, we'd have won. The amount of breaks we made on Friday, followed up by a drive was too many to count. We play one play at a time, not two, three four tackles ahead..

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    I just get the impression Cunningham isn't an inclusive coach. He can't manage the wider group and surrounds himself with mates and yes men such as Wilkin and Long. As a result the younger players don't get much of a look in as they are played out of position and look for pastures new. The fragmented team dynamics can be seen in the performance on the field.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I personally will not give up on this group of players I think the squad is perfectly as good if not better than the Cas squad who took Leigh and Wire apart.

    I am afraid that we are going to do the same as we did last year but with different players which just will not work.I hope KC will swallow some pride and take some advice and actually watch how other teams play to change our style.

    We were obviously complacent in the first 20 mins last night and that is simply not good enough right across the board.This needs to happen quickly because wakefield apart there are no easy games coming up.(not sure next friday will be easy either)
    As a 17 I think we are better than Cas, though they have a couple of players I would like over ours. Don't see KC swallowing any pride, comes accross far too arrogant for that.

  19. #119
    In The South Stand Paul Newlove's Avatar
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    Just season ticket games for me now this season , I'm not forking out another £50 again I've had enough of it I don't even feel like I'm watching Saints anymore.

  20. #120
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    I went on Friday, more because I'm missing the social side rather than the on field product. I've also bought a ticket for the game v Wire as I didn't renew my season ticket.
    It was no better to watch than last years crap and unless Cunningham goes it really isn't going to change is it, as much as we'd love it to.
    3000 speccies turn up and the coach can't get the 17 on the pitch to perform.
    "The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
    Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Ok. So we all stop going and you don't have a club to moan about.
    I think it is better than forking out good money, then moaning and nothing is changed from the crap we have had to endure since KC took over, Saints are getting no more of my money whilst they serve up garbage, just my opinion of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    had smith played last night, we'd have won.
    This is an incredible statement.

    We're not talking about Cronk or Thurston here. We're talking about a very limited scrum half who most saints fans were gutted that we signed. Since he broke his leg he seems to have taken on mythical status.

    Anyone who thinks things are going to be Hunky dory once we have Smith to "organise" us is in for a shock. This team is completely inept and the return of a steady Eddie scrum half is hardly going to change that. Especially given that Wilkin was doing the exact same "organising" job on Friday night, clogging up first receiver and firing out cannonballs for Fages and Richardson who evidently aren't trusted to play half back.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint View Post
    This is an incredible statement.

    We're not talking about Cronk or Thurston here. We're talking about a very limited scrum half who most saints fans were gutted that we signed. Since he broke his leg he seems to have taken on mythical status.

    Anyone who thinks things are going to be Hunky dory once we have Smith to "organise" us is in for a shock. This team is completely inept and the return of a steady Eddie scrum half is hardly going to change that. Especially given that Wilkin was doing the exact same "organising" job on Friday night, clogging up first receiver and firing out cannonballs for Fages and Richardson who evidently aren't trusted to play half back.
    I agree that we would not have won had Smith played, and that is not a slant on Matty Smith himself.

    We were let down by our pack, who were totally dominated by Leigh, and I do not think that many half backs in this league could have turned our performance into a winning one on Friday night.

    We did create some chances to score, mainly through Roby, but a couple through Richardson, but were let down by poor handling and individual errors, all of which were beyond the control of our half backs.

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    agreed.Once Smith is fit,I don't think we will see much different than what Walsh served up during his time at Saints ie shift the ball along the line,never run with it and try to dictate the play with his kicking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Ok. So we all stop going and you don't have a club to moan about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Yes. Just pointing out that if we all took that view there'd be no club. And it's not just this team.
    That would be true if we lived in some type of parallel universe is it was all or nothing, if there was only black or white but no in-between. Back in the real world there is an in-between alternative that is neither all or nothing.

    The fans simply need to coordinate themselves to get the message across. This could at first be something that didn't impact upon the finances of the club, such as a walk out with 20 minutes left. If the message wasn't heard, then it becomes a stay away for a single game.

    Eventually the club would need to make the changes that the fans deserve, whatever those changes actually are. For me it is just the style of play but others will have different opinions. While it might not seem palatable to do this it is for the greater good. If you continue to pay your way there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the club will continue to serve up that same $h1te. There is nothing to motivate them to do otherwise.

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