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Thread: Saints v Leeds (Feb 9)

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    Quote Originally Posted by parrsaint View Post
    [/B]

    From where I was stood he was hit in the head by a knee and the Leeds player appeared to give him a sly hit for good measure with his left arm.
    Hope he back for the next game.
    .
    What pee'd me off about this was that it was the third tackle and there were two big forwards either side of Lomax to take that ball in. He should never have been given the ball to do that and he himself should have had more sense to run the ball in against big Leeds forwards on the third tackle. There was no gap for him to go for. He's not a prop, it was a stupid move and no surprise an injury come from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    Another thing has just occurred to me.. Can someone explain why TM and AS from the get go were playing in the middles for so much of the game. In the whole game we had no wing play, which must be down to our wingers not being there. Ok TM was FB in the second half, but am I missing something about this tactic. At times Swift was first play the ball and passing to TM?
    I understand the need for backs relieving the forwards but its nearly the other way round at Saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twentyman View Post
    Excellent attitude in defence. They showed a real unity and pride in defending their line.

    Just a quick reference about Wilkin who according to the stats, gives away a lot of penalties for us. You have to look at the type of penalties though. They broke our line down the right hand side in first half, we were bang in trouble and Wilkin eventually pulled their player down...then he deliberately hung on and gave the penalty away. On paper, it's a penalty, in reality he's just killed their momentum and given us an opportunity to get reset in defence. He's a clever lad.

    I thought Lee played really well in his first spell and although unspectacular, he oozes experience and assurance.

    Excellent team performance overall. Douglas gave away possession and penalties but he'll sharpen up and he doesn't half work his backside off to hit them head on and get us on the front foot.
    Some would say clever, some would say cynical. For me, it's those type of penalties that should lead to a yellow card.

    This isn't a pop at Wilkin by the way. You are absolutely right, he got his team out of a lot of trouble by giving away the penalty knowing he would just get a telling off. My point is that, whoever gives away such a penalty when the attack have created such an advantage should go to the sin bin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    Another thing has just occurred to me.. Can someone explain why TM and AS from the get go were playing in the middles for so much of the game. In the whole game we had no wing play, which must be down to our wingers not being there. Ok TM was FB in the second half, but am I missing something about this tactic. At times Swift was first play the ball and passing to TM?
    Swift has always been a makeshift prop!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    I understand the need for backs relieving the forwards but its nearly the other way round at Saints.
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    Yep I get the relieving the forwards now and again, but we started with them in the middle and it continued all game. I noticed it during the Cas friendly as well. I bet the props love it, but it narrows our playing potential somewhat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    Yep I get the relieving the forwards now and again, but we started with them in the middle and it continued all game. I noticed it during the Cas friendly as well. I bet the props love it, but it narrows our playing potential somewhat.

    And, as we've seen, increases the risk of injury to the much lighter wingers

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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    Yep I get the relieving the forwards now and again, but we started with them in the middle and it continued all game. I noticed it during the Cas friendly as well. I bet the props love it, but it narrows our playing potential somewhat.
    I agree. At times last night we got our sets completely the wrong way round. We were using wingers and the full back for the first 3 and then hitting a prop on the 4th. I certainly don't class myself as being stuck in my ways but what's wrong with forwards for the first 3 and then use the backs after that?

    Obviously every now and then I can see the benefit of a "speed set" as they call it but not every time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    Another thing has just occurred to me.. Can someone explain why TM and AS from the get go were playing in the middles for so much of the game. In the whole game we had no wing play, which must be down to our wingers not being there. Ok TM was FB in the second half, but am I missing something about this tactic. At times Swift was first play the ball and passing to TM?
    The reason teams do it is so that they've got somewhere there to carry the ball in those few seconds when the forwards are getting back. If the back three didn't do it there'd be no-one to take the ball forward: Ryan Hall is sensational at it, Manfredi, Russell, McGilverey, Carney the same. All the NRL guys are freakish at it as well. A winger who does it well really helps the forwards out and speeds the play the ball up a bit.

    Makinson and Swift just don't have the size to do it though and it's something that's cost us a little bit in big games for years. A few of us on here were encouraging us to go out and sign another winger because in many ways it could come down to Makinson or Swift rather than both, obviously the club stuck to their guns though. The game is filled with pacey, athletic wingers whereas ours are both good readers of the game but don't necessarily have those attributes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    The reason teams do it is so that they've got somewhere there to carry the ball in those few seconds when the forwards are getting back. If the back three didn't do it there'd be no-one to take the ball forward: Ryan Hall is sensational at it, Manfredi, Russell, McGilverey, Carney the same. All the NRL guys are freakish at it as well. A winger who does it well really helps the forwards out and speeds the play the ball up a bit.

    Makinson and Swift just don't have the size to do it though and it's something that's cost us a little bit in big games for years. A few of us on here were encouraging us to go out and sign another winger because in many ways it could come down to Makinson or Swift rather than both, obviously the club stuck to their guns though. The game is filled with pacey, athletic wingers whereas ours are both good readers of the game but don't necessarily have those attributes.
    I agree with what you're saying but Manfredi Russell Tommy and Swift are more or less the exact same height and weight...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake920 View Post
    I agree with what you're saying but Manfredi Russell Tommy and Swift are more or less the exact same height and weight...
    Those two are slightly different than the other wingers I mentioned but I'd say that they've got more explosive speed than our two and probably better footwork as well. That explosiveness gets a quick ruck more often than not. Russel isn't as strong in other areas but is dangerous when he goes into dummy half, that's why I mentioned him.

    I'm not saying we've got poor wingers, Makinson is an outstanding reader of the game and is defensively really good, Swift needs to improve his handling but does other things well. I just think that if you put a Hall/McGilverey in our team it adds another dimension, you know. Don't see our lads pushing for International spots but maybe that will change in time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by forward ref View Post
    That's Wigan stuffed then because moving off the mark is a big part of their tactics to get a quicker play the ball.
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    For all the stick that Lee took from fans when we signed him, he could turn out to be one of our most shrewdest signings. His leadership and experience calms the team down and he does the simple things well. And most importantly, it turns Roby into a major weapon for us again instead of running him into the ground for 80 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    And, as we've seen, increases the risk of injury to the much lighter wingers
    I can't agree with the posters who question the use of backs for the initial drives out of defence through concern over their welfare. How come our smallest forward, Roby, doesn't get injured despite the number of drives that he makes into the larger opposition players? Surely, every player is an elite professional and should be able to survive impacts while the backs should have enough sense to run at the gaps between rather into people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    I can't agree with the posters who question the use of backs for the initial drives out of defence through concern over their welfare. How come our smallest forward, Roby, doesn't get injured despite the number of drives that he makes into the larger opposition players? Surely, every player is an elite professional and should be able to survive impacts while the backs should have enough sense to run at the gaps between rather into people.
    It's a fair point, and backs taking the ball in has been a fact of life in RL for years now. However, Roby (by virtue of his talent and experience as a hooker) knows how to exploit a gap and knows where to run when faced with a broken field, which is more often than not when he takes the ball in. The wingers are usually faced with a static and structured defensive line and are simply running into a wall, giving the forwards a breather.

    I accept what Tez says about the need for them to do the hard yards at various times in the game, but I do worry about how little ball they actually get in their correct positions. We still struggle to get the ball wide, and I think Percival and Morgan were under utilised last night, which in turn leaves their wingers the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twentyman View Post
    For all the stick that Lee took from fans when we signed him, he could turn out to be one of our most shrewdest signings. His leadership and experience calms the team down and he does the simple things well. And most importantly, it turns Roby into a major weapon for us again instead of running him into the ground for 80 minutes.
    Got to admit I was one of the sceptics on Lee, but if he can turn in professional performances like last night I would have no qualms about him being in the squad. Nothing spectacular but solid first outing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twentyman View Post
    For all the stick that Lee took from fans when we signed him, he could turn out to be one of our most shrewdest signings. His leadership and experience calms the team down and he does the simple things well. And most importantly, it turns Roby into a major weapon for us again instead of running him into the ground for 80 minutes.
    One thing I wasn't aware of is that he has a really good shoulder on him. He put a massive hit on someone in one of the pre-season games, and he was really throwing his weight around in the first 20 last night. I'm happy with him starting games and Roby coming on fresh once things have calmed down a bit. There were some moments when both were on the field that Lee ended up in at first receiver, though, and that's not something I want to see ... it seems to end in a hospital pass to the lead runner every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    One thing I wasn't aware of is that he has a really good shoulder on him. He put a massive hit on someone in one of the pre-season games, and he was really throwing his weight around in the first 20 last night. I'm happy with him starting games and Roby coming on fresh once things have calmed down a bit. There were some moments when both were on the field that Lee ended up in at first receiver, though, and that's not something I want to see ... it seems to end in a hospital pass to the lead runner every time.
    Agreed. I don't recall posting anything about Lee's signing because I didn't think he was going to be anything other than a 'pick ball up, distribute left or right' kind of hooker for 20-30 minutes a game. It's what KC obviously wants early on, and allows better players to be in better positions. If Lee starts becoming more than that (as you said when he was at 1R) then I will start questioning it, because he should not be doing that with two half backs on the field. If the tactic is simply to allow Roby to come in when the opposition are tiring then Lee will cause no issues at 9 early on when the game is more structured and belongs to the forwards. The bigger question is really whether this tactic is actually the correct one, and whether Roby is better after 20 or from the start.

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    Lee went well last night.He could be a shrewd signing.But the fact that Richardson stood out makes it all the more important that positions are filled by player who instinctively know what to do in their chosen position.
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    Hard not to be happy with last night. Thought there was a clear effort to be more expansive early doors but that began to stop when Lomax went off understandably. Lomax is the key if we want to get the best of our outside backs.

    Its important when the attack isn't firing that the defence is on top and it was, last season you could see us losing a game with that little field position quite easily.

    Thought in terms of the backs Makinson and the half backs were very good. Makinson and Richardson stepped in admirably for Lomax and Smith. Fages made 42 tackles, missing 1. A half backs job isnt to defend but that's incredible. Swift had a shocker first half but recovered to take some tough balls in the second half. We didn't see much of either centre but i think we need a proper pivot at FB in Lomax which Makinson is not to get the best out of those two.

    The forwards were very good and far too strong for Leeds. Walmsley was immense, Wilkin made 60 tackles and set up our try and Thompson and Amor looked very good. Douglas came up with a couple of errors but you'd hope he'll settle in over the next few weeks. Thought Roby looked good and it remains to be seen as to whether it was simply because Walmsley and co were playing so well or whether its down to the breather he's getting from Lee. Lee looked solid and I think that's all we can ask of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    Lee went well last night.He could be a shrewd signing.But the fact that Richardson stood out makes it all the more important that positions are filled by player who instinctively know what to do in their chosen position.
    Not necessarily, it depends on the player. What we saw last night though was brilliant coaching. He had Wilkin dominating the middle of the field and the two lads either side of him. Wilkin did a lot of the organising and Fages and Richardson played on the back of him. If Fages and Richardson were in people's 1-3 for MOM, Wilkin had to be as well. He didn't get everything right but he took on a hell of a lot of responsibility and did an awful lot right. To do the tackling he did as well as controlling the side is a fair effort. Without him, I think it would have been a different game and he let the halves play their natural games. Thought he was outstanding and good coaching from Cunningham.

    I thought Lee did well, he's not a Roby but he's clever out of 9 and is defensively really strong. When we brought Roby and Walmsley on the game stepped up and again it's really good coaching.
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    Default Saints v Leeds (Feb 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    Not necessarily, it depends on the player. What we saw last night though was brilliant coaching. He had Wilkin dominating the middle of the field and the two lads either side of him. Wilkin did a lot of the organising and Fages and Richardson played on the back of him. If Fages and Richardson were in people's 1-3 for MOM, Wilkin had to be as well. He didn't get everything right but he took on a hell of a lot of responsibility and did an awful lot right. To do the tackling he did as well as controlling the side is a fair effort. Without him, I think it would have been a different game and he let the halves play their natural games. Thought he was outstanding and good coaching from Cunningham.

    I thought Lee did well, he's not a Roby but he's clever out of 9 and is defensively really strong. When we brought Roby and Walmsley on the game stepped up and again it's really good coaching.
    Wow, just wow.

    Brilliant coaching i dont know where to start with that one. An attack so flat that the second reciever invariably gets man and ball is brilliant, no set piece of any description, no one running through gaps, no passes to run onto for our backline and we can only pass to the left all brilliant coaching.

    Yes we can say we lost Smith and I will cut Cunningham some slack because of that but have we not worked on anything since he was injured ? It's been 2 weeks and we couldn't come up with any plays except to plunge over from close range?
    We don't threaten enough with the ball in hand, we don't worry defences under Cunningham because he's frightened of taking risks.


    We won last night and deservedly so, but We are as poorly coached as weve ever been in nearly 40 years of me watching Saints.





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    Last edited by Buddy; 10th February 2017 at 12:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tez the Saint View Post
    What we saw last night though was brilliant coaching.
    What we saw last night was a brilliantly disciplined defensive performance. In attack we were average, and both half backs played a very limited but effective game. Neither of them played their 'natural game' at all, because Fages' natural game is to run with the ball and attack the line. Last night was a continuation of the limited play that we've seen from Cunningham in the last two years. The kicking game was good, the organisation was solid, but it was nothing other than that.

    Now, was it successful? Last night it was just about good enough because defensively we were brilliant. Was it the structure and style that Cunningham wants? I would argue that without the handling errors Cunningham would have been delighted with what we did with the ball. Given that Percival, Morgan, Swift and Makinson barely saw any ball in open play I will argue that nothing much has changed in terms of our style, and it appears that Cunningham has no desire to change it either.

    It's annoying to me that some of our fanbase are now so resigned to us not being good to watch that they laud steady eddie RL as something brilliant. And it annoys me that after a hard fought win people can't be honest and say that the win came about because our lads worked their backsides off in defence, instead of trying to paint it as some brilliantly coached performance with the ball. It wasn't. Let's talk about the real positives of the game, namely our will to win and our determination to hold on to a lead, and not try to hype up the things that were average and need lots of work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    What we saw last night was a brilliantly disciplined defensive performance. In attack we were average, and both half backs played a very limited but effective game. Neither of them played their 'natural game' at all, because Fages' natural game is to run with the ball and attack the line. Last night was a continuation of the limited play that we've seen from Cunningham in the last two years. The kicking game was good, the organisation was solid, but it was nothing other than that.

    Now, was it successful? Last night it was just about good enough because defensively we were brilliant. Was it the structure and style that Cunningham wants? I would argue that without the handling errors Cunningham would have been delighted with what we did with the ball. Given that Percival, Morgan, Swift and Makinson barely saw any ball in open play I will argue that nothing much has changed in terms of our style, and it appears that Cunningham has no desire to change it either.

    It's annoying to me that some of our fanbase are now so resigned to us not being good to watch that they laud steady eddie RL as something brilliant. And it annoys me that after a hard fought win people can't be honest and say that the win came about because our lads worked their backsides off in defence, instead of trying to paint it as some brilliantly coached performance with the ball. It wasn't. Let's talk about the real positives of the game, namely our will to win and our determination to hold on to a lead, and not try to hype up the things that were average and need lots of work.
    Whilst still a million miles from being in the same league as the Millward-era team in terms of attacking mentality, I thought some progress had been made last night. It certainly wasn't as dour and one-dimensional as many of the games last season.

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    Haha bloody hell. I complimented him on his decision to start Tommy Lee and his decision to structure the field. At no stage did I say we attacked brilliantly, in fact I said in the other thread it was an area we really need to improve on. Talk about putting words into people's mouths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Whilst still a million miles from being in the same league as the Millward-era team in terms of attacking mentality, I thought some progress had been made last night. It certainly wasn't as dour and one-dimensional as many of the games last season.
    I'm not trying to be negative, but for me the positive was the defence. I said earlier that I'm willing to bite my lip and give it time to see where we are as an attacking force in the weeks to come. But no way was last night a good attacking performance. It was solid in the forwards, our kicking game was good and the two young lads at 6 and 7 looked calm. It was an intense game against a big club, and that made it an interesting and enjoyable encounter, but it was nothing other than average attacking wise.

    I just want us to focus on the massive positives of our defensive display and not needlessly hype up the bits that were pretty average in some attempt to bolster the coaches reputation.

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