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Thread: Middle 8s Watch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loose Forward Bloke View Post
    If one of those two go down, I wonder if we'll be looking at players they have.
    Yes, there are some decent props in both sides. George Griffin is now beginning to look better and Adam Walker is a really good one. Both get through a ton of work and make decent metres. Walker is right up there with his offloading stats. Both would be preferable to Speedbump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Hard to speculate on how Leigh would compete in super league as, with plenty of money to spend, you'd expect their squad to be very different
    I was under the impression that Leigh spent as much as Super League teams for wages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptb View Post
    Yes, there are some decent props in both sides. George Griffin is now beginning to look better and Adam Walker is a really good one. Both get through a ton of work and make decent metres. Walker is right up there with his offloading stats. Both would be preferable to Speedbump.
    I thought Walker was up in court. Has his case been heard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loose Forward Bloke View Post
    I was under the impression that Leigh spent as much as Super League teams for wages?
    That may be so but a place in super league will allow them to attract a higher level of recruitment.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I don't actually disagree with the points made about Salford, Leigh, Hull KR, Bradford etc, but it does worry me that we have these kind of conversations because it really shows how weak we are as a sport now. We all accept (more or less) that there are a few clubs knocking about that not many of us would miss if they disappeared out of Super League, and there a few clubs that alot of us would like to come up.
    Your post is spot on but this is the bleakest and most pertinent thing that resonated with me. I know when I can put my finger on it - the "franchise" system. Not having promotion and relegation for 6 years set the sport back miles. It was one of the worst ideas we've ever had to endure and it exacerbated who was weak and who was strong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
    Your post is spot on but this is the bleakest and most pertinent thing that resonated with me. I know when I can put my finger on it - the "franchise" system. Not having promotion and relegation for 6 years set the sport back miles. It was one of the worst ideas we've ever had to endure and it exacerbated who was weak and who was strong.
    Why. Which teams in the Championship would have enhanced the league? Widnes? Their attendances are frankly awful, their pitch is an abomination, they are a also ran team.

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    Because ringfencing isn't the way forward for any sport - it was frankly ridiculous to stop the likes of Batley, Widnes, Halifax, Fev etc having a crack at the top division. They would have gone down but the likes of Wakefield constantly finished bottom and had no worries about being relegated. It was absolutely farcical. Promotion and relegation is a part of any sport in this country, why do we have to be different?
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    I think you are being harsh on Widnes, it is not the biggest of places and even as cup kings in the seventies before Thatcher ruined the north attendance figures on average never got much above seven thousand.

    Fast forward super league Widnes wrong place wrong time and the club sank with some dubious ownership. Steve O'Connor took over and sank considerable money into the club. I had the pleasure of his company on numerous sponsorship gigs with our cup competition and even though mainly a football fan I liked him.

    He was told by his advisors that get us back to super league and the fans will bang the gates down and we will average 8,500 when he told me this I said REALLY! don't trust ex players eh? They played the game but don't always know the game, lose fans and then try to get them back years later even worse for Huddersfield 22,000 average in the early fifties and 800 average in the mid eighties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
    Because ringfencing isn't the way forward for any sport - it was frankly ridiculous to stop the likes of Batley, Widnes, Halifax, Fev etc having a crack at the top division. They would have gone down but the likes of Wakefield constantly finished bottom and had no worries about being relegated. It was absolutely farcical. Promotion and relegation is a part of any sport in this country, why do we have to be different?
    I totally agree it is, but which team would have been better than Wakefield?, we need teams to come up and put pressure on the teams above not be cannon fodder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Margaret View Post
    I totally agree it is, but which team would have been better than Wakefield?, we need teams to come up and put pressure on the teams above not be cannon fodder.
    You can't say because teams will sign players, I wouldnt be surprised to see Leigh sign new backs for next season, there is only really Mitch Brown who is SL quality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Margaret View Post
    I totally agree it is, but which team would have been better than Wakefield?, we need teams to come up and put pressure on the teams above not be cannon fodder.
    I disagree.

    At a lower level or not, teams work their way up through the divisions. Who's to say that Widnes wouldn't have come up and had some smart recruitment? I agree that we want teams to get better but having a situation where the bottom team can't go down isn't that way, especially when they didn't get any better. I hated the top 8 system, I hated the no relegation, I hated the "licensing criteria" and it was a generally atrocious time to watch the sport. I dislike this Super 8s too, I think it's tacky, but at least there's a chance that a team can come up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
    I disagree.

    At a lower level or not, teams work their way up through the divisions. Who's to say that Widnes wouldn't have come up and had some smart recruitment? I agree that we want teams to get better but having a situation where the bottom team can't go down isn't that way, especially when they didn't get any better. I hated the top 8 system, I hated the no relegation, I hated the "licensing criteria" and it was a generally atrocious time to watch the sport. I dislike this Super 8s too, I think it's tacky, but at least there's a chance that a team can come up.
    It all depends on the teams though, the NRL have no relegation and they dont moan about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazdev View Post
    You can't say because teams will sign players, I wouldnt be surprised to see Leigh sign new backs for next season, there is only really Mitch Brown who is SL quality
    Will they when? they won't even know if they will be in Super League till they play Batley? even then that is only if they beat them,They won't beat Leeds or Huddersfield,all the good players are already signed up for next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazdev View Post
    It all depends on the teams though, the NRL have no relegation and they dont moan about it
    The difference with the NRL is that each season can see new teams challenging for the title. Over here we see Saints, Wigan and Leeds win most seasons with another club challenging every now and then.

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    Everyone seems to think it's a gimme that Leigh are up but if Huddersfield win their next two games then Leeds beat Leigh and HKR beat Huddersfield on the last day, none of which would be massive shocks, then Leigh are going to finish fourth and face Salford in the Million Pound Game, which I fancy they might well lose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazdev View Post
    It all depends on the teams though, the NRL have no relegation and they dont moan about it
    They don't have anyone to promote though do they? They just have lower grade rugby which is admittedly a higher level than Super League.
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    Barry you are well versed on sport and actually would be great on goglebox and you know the culture of Australia is totally different they generally accepted the merger concept, well it happened and compare and contrast that with England "uncle Mo" came up with a good idea merge Wakey, Cas and Fev which if supplemented with a brand new stadium at the time actually made a bit of sense, but woooo mutiny in the rhubarb triangle images of MO burned, Nige Wood on hunger strike wearing blu sox and you know Barry the only one of those three to make any ground improvements FEV never been near super league and the ground is now a cracking stadium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Furlongs View Post
    Barry you are well versed on sport and actually would be great on goglebox and you know the culture of Australia is totally different they generally accepted the merger concept, well it happened and compare and contrast that with England "uncle Mo" came up with a good idea merge Wakey, Cas and Fev which if supplemented with a brand new stadium at the time actually made a bit of sense, but woooo mutiny in the rhubarb triangle images of MO burned, Nige Wood on hunger strike wearing blu sox and you know Barry the only one of those three to make any ground improvements FEV never been near super league and the ground is now a cracking stadium.
    What I mean is if you have the clubs then no relegation could work.

    I think the likes of Toulouse and Toronto have a real chance of making SL now they have a wealthy backer and can spend what SL sides do.

    I have said this loads of times and I still stand by making the game elitest. Go to a 10 team superleague (Means the quality players are less diluted, making the game automatically played with better sides)

    A league of

    Wigan
    Saints
    Leeds
    Salford
    Wire
    Catalans
    Hull
    Toulouse (In time)
    Toronto (In time)
    Cas/Leigh/Hull KR

    I think this would be a league where they can all spend plenty of money (I would raise the cap to 2.5m with 2 marquee players) which would improve intensity and in theory mean the games are played with better teams. This in turn should bring more competition and every club should be capable of challenging for the big trophy

    Admittedly the likes of Toulouse and Toronto are just wild speculation at the moment but Catalans have been a success (even without silverware) and I can see both those sides adding to the league.

    Whilst it would be nice to have a sport that is taken seriously nationwide we have tried and failed in various places (London, Wales etc) and sometimes you have to bite the bullet and admit defeat.

    This would mean the end for the little club but what are the likes of Swinton/Oldham etc bringing to RL anyway? There are only 1 or 2 from outside SL that can give the bottom sides in SL a game in a one off cup game. It would also mean the end of the CC but after seeing the last final, are the fans already voting with their feet?

    I want to see a better league where the best teams arent forced down to the worst clubs level. It is the only sport in the world where this happens and it has suffered massively in recent years. Does anybody honestly think this version of RL we are seeing is entertaining?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Furlongs View Post
    I think you are being harsh on Widnes, it is not the biggest of places and even as cup kings in the seventies before Thatcher ruined the north attendance figures on average never got much above seven thousand.

    Fast forward super league Widnes wrong place wrong time and the club sank with some dubious ownership. Steve O'Connor took over and sank considerable money into the club. I had the pleasure of his company on numerous sponsorship gigs with our cup competition and even though mainly a football fan I liked him.

    He was told by his advisors that get us back to super league and the fans will bang the gates down and we will average 8,500 when he told me this I said REALLY! don't trust ex players eh? They played the game but don't always know the game, lose fans and then try to get them back years later even worse for Huddersfield 22,000 average in the early fifties and 800 average in the mid eighties.
    Very accurate summary of Widnes past and present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Margaret View Post
    Why. Which teams in the Championship would have enhanced the league? Widnes? Their attendances are frankly awful, their pitch is an abomination, they are a also ran team.



    This is exactly the argument that I think is harming our game. Teams shouldn't be worthy of being in Super League because they 'enhance the league'. They should be worthy of a place because they were the best team in the division below.



    The argument some make that we want teams to come up because we think they will be competitive, get decent crowds, etc is irrelevant IMO. If we are putting criteria on promoted teams "worth" to our elite division it shows that our elite division is in real trouble.



    Our comp should be good enough that promoted teams should be just another club at the bottom of the pile, but instead we have conversations were clubs are judged based on how much they can bring to SL. That really shows how crap SL is.

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    Very interesting debate this, I do agree that the franchise system has been an abject failure and has not only harmed the quality of Super league but also the lower leagues also.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Everyone seems to think it's a gimme that Leigh are up but if Huddersfield win their next two games then Leeds beat Leigh and HKR beat Huddersfield on the last day, none of which would be massive shocks, then Leigh are going to finish fourth and face Salford in the Million Pound Game, which I fancy they might well lose.
    Huddersfield could very easily lose all three games, Leeds home, Hull KR away, Leigh away,Leigh have to play Batley at Home They SHOULD win that which will give them 10 points they will be very unlucky not to get promoted with that amount of points.

    Your scenario could happen, but i don't think it's very likely all those results going that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Verminator View Post
    I disagree.

    At a lower level or not, teams work their way up through the divisions. Who's to say that Widnes wouldn't have come up and had some smart recruitment? I agree that we want teams to get better but having a situation where the bottom team can't go down isn't that way, especially when they didn't get any better. I hated the top 8 system, I hated the no relegation, I hated the "licensing criteria" and it was a generally atrocious time to watch the sport. I dislike this Super 8s too, I think it's tacky, but at least there's a chance that a team can come up.

    I think the franchise system has huge merits.

    Under a straight promotion/relegation scenario, promoted clubs just view short-term SL survival as crucial. Look at the transfer activity of clubs who were promoted to SL. It's packed with the signings of journeymen pros (many from Aus/NZ/islands). The mentality was to bring in players with SL experience. This still didn't stop some teams being 'yo-yos' and, after spending big to bring in these players, if the club was relegated the season or two after, they'd be scrambling round to get these players off their payroll (sometimes even to the team that'd been promoted in their place!)

    What the franchise system did, IMO, is get clubs focusing more long-term. It's no coincidence that, since the introduction of the franchise, more youngsters/Academy products have been introduced into first teams than at any point since before SL was incorporated. Knowing that they have 3 years of guaranteed SL existence, clubs can plan ahead. They can develop & give gametime to promising youngsters, in the knowledge that even if these players take a season or two to get up to speed & gain the required experience, they will be in a stronger position 3 years down the line.

    Of course, this being RL, the practicalities aren't as shiny as the theory, but I do think we've generally moved away from the panic-buy mentality we previously had.

    The Super-8 system isn't perfect, and I was initially hugely sceptical, yet it's won me over and I think it's a clever compromise. We've yet to see how a promoted team's transfer activity would pan-out (Leigh already seem to have gone down the 'buy loads of journeymen pros' route, even whilst in the Championship), but it does allow for a team finishing bottom to have a crack at staying up and, more importantly, forces a team with SL ambition to demonstrate that they have enough quality to compete in the higher league.

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    I see Hull KR have got so desperate that Jamie Peacock is coming out of retirement for the rest of the season
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    That is really interesting if he is? HKR and Wakey have already stated if they dropped out of Super League it will be another Bradford. SL cash keeps the boat afloat "just". Salford without Koukash that will be a struggle to the bottom I think only Huddersfield are that well run they would bounce back with little effect. It is interesting to hear qualifying for the super 8 has ensured part -time Batley will be solvent for the next two seasons.

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    Salford recruit Silverwood to improve team discipline...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/37287051

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