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Thread: Levy Nzoungou

  1. #51
    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    People seem to love these 'novelty' players despite them doing very little of substance. I've seen him in the reserves a couple of times and he looked a poor player in terms of core skills

    I remember being at OT watching Darren Fletcher being booed onto the pitch (before he turned the fans around) and in the same game Giuseppe Rossi being cheered wildly like some all conquering hero

    I hope the stories of him being treated with disrespect aren't true but I've no issue with him being released for not being good enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    People seem to love these 'novelty' players despite them doing very little of substance. I've seen him in the reserves a couple of times and he looked a poor player in terms of core skills

    I remember being at OT watching Darren Fletcher being booed onto the pitch (before he turned the fans around) and in the same game Giuseppe Rossi being cheered wildly like some all conquering hero

    I hope the stories of him being treated with disrespect aren't true but I've no issue with him being released for not being good enough
    Would you be calling him a 'novelty' if he was a white guy from St Helens? Embarrassing post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 141 View Post
    Would you be calling him a 'novelty' if he was a white guy from St Helens? Embarrassing post.
    Harsh that IMO. He's a novelty in that he's a prop who has run the length a couple of times but has glaring flaws apparently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    Harsh that IMO. He's a novelty in that he's a prop who has run the length a couple of times but has glaring flaws apparently.
    Either way, if we had a prop doing that who was born and raised in St Helens and came through at Blackbrook I don't think there's any way they would be being cut at 18 years old.

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    I think 'project' is a good way to describe him. He looks like he has never watched or played RL in his life. Superb athlete though. God knows why you are bringing ethnicity into it 141. Has the Blackbrook lad never seen a rugby ball either?

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    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 141 View Post
    Would you be calling him a 'novelty' if he was a white guy from St Helens? Embarrassing post.
    I have to ask the question so I don't offend further - is there something wrong with you? In terms of intellect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benidorm John
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    I think 'project' is a good way to describe him. He looks like he has never watched or played RL in his life. Superb athlete though. God knows why you are bringing ethnicity into it 141. Has the Blackbrook lad never seen a rugby ball either?
    Not ethnicity, the fact that someone is coming in as an outsider. I think Levy played first team for Toulouse before coming here so what you've just posted is total nonsense. And people still say similar things about LMS who is another from a non-traditional background. The sport in this country has a real backwards and insular mentality at times, if you're not from a certain area or part of a certain clique you don't get given a fair chance or even get given a chance at all as seems to be the case here.

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    Doesn't seem that way to me. There seems to be a LOT of people who are independent observers who are saying that he ain't that good.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RedVee Admin View Post
    Doesn't seem that way to me. There seems to be a LOT of people who are independent observers who are saying that he ain't that good.
    We'll have to see. But the point is that we brought in a reserves team specifically so we could develop players like this who have potential but aren't quite the finished product. 18 is ridiculously young for a prop, the likes of Peacock, Hill and Walmsley didn't even debut until they were 22-23, and when you have someone who is raw but has shown flashes of brilliance like Levy has then I can't think of any logical explanation for releasing him after less than one year especially when we're paying former academy players and old League 1 veterans to fill out the reserves team. It just doesn't make sense. And like I said, I don't think it would be happening if he was a St Helens lad from Brook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 141 View Post
    Not ethnicity, the fact that someone is coming in as an outsider. I think Levy played first team for Toulouse before coming here so what you've just posted is total nonsense. And people still say similar things about LMS who is another from a non-traditional background. The sport in this country has a real backwards and insular mentality at times, if you're not from a certain area or part of a certain clique you don't get given a fair chance or even get given a chance at all as seems to be the case here.
    Kel Coslett said the same in his book. So it's nothing new..

    I would argue that an 18 year old who is so raw, from blackbrook wouldn't be anywhere near the under 19s

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    Yes we are releasing him because this is a local sport for local people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 141 View Post
    We'll have to see. But the point is that we brought in a reserves team specifically so we could develop players like this who have potential but aren't quite the finished product. 18 is ridiculously young for a prop, the likes of Peacock, Hill and Walmsley didn't even debut until they were 22-23, and when you have someone who is raw but has shown flashes of brilliance like Levy has then I can't think of any logical explanation for releasing him after less than one year especially when we're paying former academy players and old League 1 veterans to fill out the reserves team. It just doesn't make sense. And like I said, I don't think it would be happening if he was a St Helens lad from Brook.
    Rubbish, absolute rubbish.

    This is St.Helens not Mississippi, there are no burning crosses and white hoods here and anyone who thinks we choose to keep players on that basis is a moron.

    You do realise that dozens of players the club brings through aren't from the town don't you? Or that the vast majority of players considered legends of the club weren't born within the town? Or does your particular brand of xenophobia only relate to towns over 25 miles away?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Rubbish, absolute rubbish.

    This is St.Helens not Mississippi, there are no burning crosses and white hoods here and anyone who thinks we choose to keep players on that basis is a moron.

    You do realise that dozens of players the club brings through aren't from the town don't you? Or that the vast majority of players considered legends of the club weren't born within the town? Or does your particular brand of xenophobia only relate to towns over 25 miles away?
    WTF are you talking about? Nobody has mentioned xenophobia or anything like that apart from you, what I said is that it's often much more difficult for players who are 'outsiders' to be given a fair crack in British RL, which it is. We turned down Offiah in the 80's for a similar reason. It's not just Saints, it happens at other clubs too, the sport in the UK is extremely insular.

    Anyway, if you can manage it without being over-sensitive, answer this: if Levy had been doing the things he has done and was a Blackbrook prospect or the son of a former player, do you honestly think he would be being released at 18 years old in the way he apparently is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 141 View Post
    WTF are you talking about? Nobody has mentioned xenophobia or anything like that apart from you, what I said is that it's often much more difficult for players who are 'outsiders' to be given a fair crack in British RL, which it is. We turned down Offiah in the 80's for a similar reason. It's not just Saints, it happens at other clubs too, the sport in the UK is extremely insular.

    Anyway, if you can manage it without being over-sensitive, answer this: if Levy had been doing the things he has done and was a Blackbrook prospect or the son of a former player, do you honestly think he would be being released at 18 years old in the way he apparently is?
    You are talking absolute rubbish.

    Firstly Rugby league has brought in these "outsiders" you mention for most of it's history and it's nonsense to suggest there is some sort of prejudice against them. Go and look at any club you choose and read their record appearances, points, tries etc and they will almost all be players who weren't local to that club.

    Secondly which Blackbrook prospect or sons of former players get unfairly retained ahead of these outsiders?

    Lastly how many of the young players released by the club in the past 10 years have they been wrong about?

    You may want a little moan about this particular player but the facts are the club invariably gets these decisions right and your little rant about the club being biased towards locals has no facts to back it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    The highlighted part is where you have nailed it; the same people want a stick to beat the club with and when we've won a few on the bounce, they need something new and this gives them that chance.

    Strikes me that pretty much everyone that has seen this boy regularly has no qualms with the club's decision. It is those that have seen him once or sporadically that are moaning. I know whose side I'd favour.
    You're being ridiculous.

    No secret I don't rate Cunningham as a coach.

    However:

    1 - I have seen most of the games he's played
    2 - Cunningham isn't the one who decided to release him
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    Quote Originally Posted by 141 View Post
    Not ethnicity
    Then why mention the fact he's not white as if it's some sort of relevant fact when compared to a player from St Helens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    The highlighted part is where you have nailed it; the same people want a stick to beat the club with and when we've won a few on the bounce, they need something new and this gives them that chance.

    Strikes me that pretty much everyone that has seen this boy regularly has no qualms with the club's decision. It is those that have seen him once or sporadically that are moaning. I know whose side I'd favour.

    With due respect, you're talking out of your hoop.

    I'd say the issue people have that they have seen how devastating a runner this guy can be, and desperately wanted him to succeed, to become a diamond that we unearthed.

    The level of desperation amongst fans is enhanced by the period of rugby we're going through, where not only has the success dried up (one SL title & no CC's in 7 years) but the brand of rugby we have played has got worse & duller.

    In other words, we're desperate for a hero!

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    It's certainly disappointing news, as Levy undeniably has a combination of qualities that are rare in players of that age, namely size, power and athleticism. But those things alone do not make you a top player. Nor do they even necessarily mean that you have potential. A young player with, say, rubbish hands and a tendency to panic will more often than not turn into a mature player with rubbish hands and a tendency to panic. What occasionally makes the difference is a player's capacity to learn and improve; Levy's strength or weakness in this area is something the coaching staff will have an understanding of that we as fans can't. In any case, I'm willing to give the youth setup the benefit of the doubt on this one; as people have pointed out, there isn't a single young player we've released for rugby reasons in the last fifteen years that has gone on to have a prominent career at a top club, other than Matty Smith.

    If there is any truth, however, in the suggestion about the way Levy was given the news, then that is extremely poor and needs sorting out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    It's certainly disappointing news, as Levy undeniably has a combination of qualities that are rare in players of that age, namely size, power and athleticism.
    I will say that often those qualities that are so prominent in a young player become less pronounced and allow them to stand out as much as they enter adulthood and their peers will have grown and chunked-up.

    Anyone remember a lad called (IIRC) Daryl Lacey from back in the 90's? I think he lived on Knowsley Road. Massive talent, destroyed teams in his own age group. In a big fanfare that started much debate, he signed for wi*an when aged 13, after there'd been a huge chase for his signature.

    At the time I worked with a guy who was a big cheese at Blackbrook and he had his doubts, said that Lacey was a decent player, but it was his size - he was much bigger than his peers at the time - that most made him stand out, and that once everyone caught up with him, he'd be far less stand-out.

    True enough, by the time he was in his late-teens, he was a similar size to the lads he played against, and wasn't anywhere near as effective. His career at wi*an didn't take off and I think he played for a few years in the lower leagues without setting the game alight (although I think he did have a few injuries)

    The coaching staff could have concluded that, whilst Levy was able to make the attention-grabbing runs against people of his own age who aren't quite as physically developed, he'd struggle to physically develop more and therefore not be as effective against grown men who have a similar physicality.

    Just a thought.

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    Default Levy Nzoungou

    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I will say that often those qualities that are so prominent in a young player become less pronounced and allow them to stand out as much as they enter adulthood and their peers will have grown and chunked-up.

    Anyone remember a lad called (IIRC) Daryl Lacey from back in the 90's? I think he lived on Knowsley Road. Massive talent, destroyed teams in his own age group. In a big fanfare that started much debate, he signed for wi*an when aged 13, after there'd been a huge chase for his signature.

    At the time I worked with a guy who was a big cheese at Blackbrook and he had his doubts, said that Lacey was a decent player, but it was his size - he was much bigger than his peers at the time - that most made him stand out, and that once everyone caught up with him, he'd be far less stand-out.

    True enough, by the time he was in his late-teens, he was a similar size to the lads he played against, and wasn't anywhere near as effective. His career at wi*an didn't take off and I think he played for a few years in the lower leagues without setting the game alight (although I think he did have a few injuries)

    The coaching staff could have concluded that, whilst Levy was able to make the attention-grabbing runs against people of his own age who aren't quite as physically developed, he'd struggle to physically develop more and therefore not be as effective against grown men who have a similar physicality.

    Just a thought.
    Indeed. Ste Tyrer was another who as a big youngster tore it up at youth level but didn't really have anything to give him an edge when he moved to open age rugby. Whether that's the perceived issue with Levy, though, who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I will say that often those qualities that are so prominent in a young player become less pronounced and allow them to stand out as much as they enter adulthood and their peers will have grown and chunked-up.

    Anyone remember a lad called (IIRC) Daryl Lacey from back in the 90's? I think he lived on Knowsley Road. Massive talent, destroyed teams in his own age group. In a big fanfare that started much debate, he signed for wi*an when aged 13, after there'd been a huge chase for his signature.

    At the time I worked with a guy who was a big cheese at Blackbrook and he had his doubts, said that Lacey was a decent player, but it was his size - he was much bigger than his peers at the time - that most made him stand out, and that once everyone caught up with him, he'd be far less stand-out.

    True enough, by the time he was in his late-teens, he was a similar size to the lads he played against, and wasn't anywhere near as effective. His career at wi*an didn't take off and I think he played for a few years in the lower leagues without setting the game alight (although I think he did have a few injuries)

    The coaching staff could have concluded that, whilst Levy was able to make the attention-grabbing runs against people of his own age who aren't quite as physically developed, he'd struggle to physically develop more and therefore not be as effective against grown men who have a similar physicality.

    Just a thought.
    I remember him well. Played in the same team as my older brother for many years at St.Helens Crusaders back in the days at Bobbies Lane.

    As you rightly said, Daryl used to tear teams to pieces and from roughly the age of 13-16 everyone would have put their mortgage on him making it. There was another lad 2 years below him at Crusaders called Andrew Hughes who used to stand out just like Daryl did, but he never made it past the academy side at Saints.

    There are countless people who stand out at a certain age but never make it to the top. Despite any gripes people have with the club over recruitment/style of play/price of hot dogs, one thing the club has a good record of is retention and release of young players. As someone else has pointed out, there aren't many who have gone on to better things after leaving us.

    So if the decision to release Levy is purely a rugby decision then I have no issue with it as we simply have to trust the club in this regard.
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    He certainly has potential does Levy. Normally I would trust Saints to make the right calls on youngsters. However, the current leadership at the club have made so many poor decisions on recruitment in recent times add to that the Savellio situation and the rumours around Greenwood, my faith has been severly dented!

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    Quote Originally Posted by st.david View Post
    He certainly has potential does Levy. Normally I would trust Saints to make the right calls on youngsters. However, the current leadership at the club have made so many poor decisions on recruitment in recent times add to that the Savellio situation and the rumours around Greenwood, my faith has been severly dented!
    That is a different stage though. We may worry about how these lads progress once they become first team regulars, and we may wonder about whether they reach their potential in their early 20's, but before that stage the club are right alot more than they are wrong when it comes to finding, retaining or releasing lads at this age.

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    Whatever the situation, if players such as Levy - who plays in a position where maturity as a player is traditionally only achieved later than his age - are released without being given an opportunity to develop further, I'd scrap the reserve team. I was really pleased when it was reinstated, giving first team players a competitive return to fitness and as a proving ground for younger players, but there are a fair few journeymen in that team who won't make first team, but no indication of them being released.
    Very disappointed.
    "The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
    Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............

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