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Thread: Cunningham response to critics

  1. #101
    In The South Stand warringtonsaint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I'm really interested in the whole idea of 'respect' in relation to KC. Alot of people are saying we need to respect him because he was a great player for us, but does that mean we need to respect him as anything other than a great player? None of us really respect him because he's a great lad, because the vast majority don't know him and have no idea if he is or not. We respect him simply because he's from our town and played to a really high level for our club. So, should that extend to other things he does? If they do one of these reunion things on the pitch at LP in twenty years time were they honour club legends, I would expect KC to be at the front of the line, standing ovation from everyone, because of what he did as a player. Whatever he does as a coach is another thing for me, and his playing career is a different thing altogether.

    If someone comes in as coach who has no background with the club we don't care about their playing career, and we judge them solely on their coaching ability. But when the coach played for us we merge the two together, and it's illogical really. I love KC as a rugby league player who achieved the dream of all St Helens lads by playing for Saints and becoming a playing legend. But I don't like him as a coach, and I have no opinion of him as a man because I don't know him. His playing career will remain untarnished, as will his reputation as a club legend regardless of what happens as a coach IMO. But his playing career is well gone, and the things he did that I loved are in the past. I will always love those moments, and always respect him as a player, and he will always be a club legend for me. But for me that is entirely different to what he is now as a coach. I'm not judging him as a man, I'm judging him as a coach, nothing more, and as a coach he is not cutting it.

    Am I wrong if I choose not to look at his playing career when looking at his coaching abilities? And if I respected him as a player but not as a coach, is that wrong?
    My thoughts exactly. As a player, he earned the highest respect and provided memories that are truly unforgettable, Roy of the Rovers stuff.
    As a coach however, he has earned not one grain of respect, just the opposite. The memories he's creating in his current role are appalling, and more akin to the captain of the Titanic than Roy of the Rovers.

    The two are not related
    "The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
    Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............

  2. #102
    Moderator Div's Avatar
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    For all the claims that AJ Murphy was a poor coach I seem to recall we won 23 games back to back under him at one point!! He was also coach in an era where one team dominated as they were full time when everyone else was semi pro.

    To a degree KC has already had quite a bit of slack cut. I'm sure we were not as poor as often under Royce but it didn't save him ! Part of me wants to give him more time to get it right, until the end of the season at least - the biggest wind up for me has been his comments in the press when I would have been far more impressed if he had called it like it is instead of the bullshit he has continually spouted. I think he has lost so much credibility due to that.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    The difference of course was the time span between his playing career and coaching career at Saints. Between playing and coaching at Saints he had played for Leigh and Wire, and then coached at loads of places including Wigan. Compare that with KC, a one-club man who went from playing for us straight into the coaching set-up. So, everyone remembers him as a player and has fond memories of him, whereas with Murphy people my age at that time only had tales and stories of Murphy the player because he was way before our time. So, the stick Murphy got (especially after the 0-27 1989 Cup Final debacle) was mainly from people who didn't really remember him as a player, so for me it is different to what is happening now. Most of us remember KC as a player and yet still feel it warranted to give him stick, which makes it worse than the situation with Murphy IMO.
    Ah right thanks for that.You are right it is not the same.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    For all the claims that AJ Murphy was a poor coach I seem to recall we won 23 games back to back under him at one point!! He was also coach in an era where one team dominated as they were full time when everyone else was semi pro.
    And he was coach when I fell in love with the game and started watching Saints regularly, so all in all there were more ups than downs under Murphy, with the two Wembley defeats defining his time for many.

    I can't imagine being a 9-10 year old kid and feeling as much love and passion for the game and my hometown club now as I did back in 1986-87 to be honest, so Murphy gets credit from me personally for putting a team out on the park that enthused me and excited me as a kid.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Is it just me who finds the whole #Cunninghamout social media thing a bit of an embarrassment...?

    Whilst I have been critical of all of the leadership of the club (from coaching team to chairman), the #Cunninghamout twitter storm is not the type of thing that's going to help. It poorly articulates the position of the fans on the matter and the respect for the head coach given his playing career at the club.

    I believe the club will be better off without Cunningham, but we are at a point in the season where this would probably be better done at the end of the year when everything has calmed down a bit and to allow the coach to disappear off into the sunset with some dignity in place.

    Its all a bit unedifying for me and is likely to make the club dig its heels in whilst making the club look boorish to the rest of the League.
    I'm not on facebook/twitter etc so I haven't seen how bad comments are. I understand what you're saying about leaving Cunningham with some dignity but it all depends on what you are willing to sacrifice. If you are prepared to carry on this season and basically give up on any chance of success well keep KC in place, a change now may give us a shot at the semi's or that's what I believe anyway.
    KC is and always will be a club legend but my desire to see the club win silverware far outweighs a face saving exercise for Cunningham.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bad Les View Post
    I assume you are making a reference to the removal of KC's statue? I think this is a poor comment, crass and puerile in the extreme. The statue is there in recognition of his contribution to the club as a legendary player and a local lad too. It had nothing to do with his role as coach. For that reason his statue should remain as long as the club exists irrespective of what happens to him as coach.

    If your post was an attempt at humor it wasn't funny.
    I think the statue is more representative of Saints the club than KC,he just won the vote.

  7. #107
    In The South Stand Tallahassee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen07 View Post
    Despite hammering him and the team several times this season I've always maintained that Keiron should be given time. Not because he's Keiron. Not because he's the best player I have seen in a Saints shirt. But because a coach, any coach, should be given time.

    To pick up on one of the other points, his status as a club legend and the level of respect we should afford him should not be in doubt. If we got relegated he'd still be a legend.
    And if we did get relegated there would still be some saying give him time.

  8. #108
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    Default Couldn't agree more with Suttoner

    Spot on! I never boo nor leave early, but you're 100% right in your assessment of the Saints under KC.
    Last edited by antwnsaint; 25th May 2016 at 15:52. Reason: Clarification

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    The club can't just keep him in the head coach position just because of his playing legacy. There's been plenty of great players in various sports who couldn't make it in the coaching world and have to take a backwards step. I read an earlier post stating it would be terrible for him if we lost the next 3 games. It shouldn't be about him it's got to be what's best for the club and the longer this goes on the more we risk taking longer to put things right. I do worry the squad he's assembled are so lacking that it would take a number of years to put right!!!

  10. #110
    Learning All The Songs yogi bear's Avatar
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    McManus, Wilkin and now KC have all now talked the talk - now it's time to walk the walk.

    How many times this year have we gone 18pts down before we start to play a bit of rugby ??

    For God's sake KC - ditch the grind and let's take the game to them in these next 3 games. If we try and go set for set with Hull or Catalan we'll get burned - $hit or bust time

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    As I was with newbies on Sunday who have family connections to a Calatans player, I sat in the opposite end at SJP to the rest of the Saints fans. I was in the corner and had a great view of our opening set from the kick off. Twice in that set we went to the right with Walsh and had an opening. On both occasions Walsh didn't even look out wide and played the drop off pass inside.

    From that moment on I was utterly bewildered with the gameplan. Walsh is obviously told to keep it simple early on, give the ball to our "middles" and grind it out. It is negative, it is predictable, it is not successful.

    Say what you want about MW, but it is the only weekend where fans get to see all 12 teams. It is a shop window event, for teams to build a reputation. I think we further lost ours on Sunday.

  12. #112
    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    There's certain themes that keep repeating in interviews this season. The "energy battle" and "hard work" - as in the only way we will improve is through hard work, not different tactics, coaching, etc

    From outside it appears that our whole strategy is to train hard (those videos at the start of each year, running up hills and diving into cold ponds) and then grind every game until the opposition is tired out. I'm just wondering if all the "hard work" means that we're taking the field already tired out. We looked absolutely gone at times and it's leading to stupid penalties and missed tackles

    I'm all for working hard but are our training methods becoming counter-productive? Again as I said I'm looking from the outside so only asking the question

    That is how it seems to me anyway

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    another cracker from Cunningham


    " "It was unjustified for them. So I'm glad they got the result."

    The guy is on cloud cuckoo land


    http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_...-as-lucky.html

    I think Cunningham has got-tongue tied there , sounds like he gets anxious in interviews especially on tv? I think he was probably implying that the situation Huddersfield were in , ie, bottom of the league, was unjust especially as they had lost quite a few games narrowly and that in that respect he was pleased for them getting a result , albeit at Saints' expense!
    I think everyone in the Kexit camp are probably guilty of interpreting every word/sentence he comes out with to support their view that he should be sacked. Maybe that's unjustified?

  14. #114
    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    As I was with newbies on Sunday who have family connections to a Calatans player, I sat in the opposite end at SJP to the rest of the Saints fans. I was in the corner and had a great view of our opening set from the kick off. Twice in that set we went to the right with Walsh and had an opening. On both occasions Walsh didn't even look out wide and played the drop off pass inside.

    From that moment on I was utterly bewildered with the gameplan. Walsh is obviously told to keep it simple early on, give the ball to our "middles" and grind it out. It is negative, it is predictable, it is not successful.

    Say what you want about MW, but it is the only weekend where fans get to see all 12 teams. It is a shop window event, for teams to build a reputation. I think we further lost ours on Sunday.
    On a similar note, having watched 4 out of 6 games there, it was stark how bland we were to watch compared to the rest and how little attacking quality we had out wide. The stadium was like a library compared to the excitement Wakefield had created the game before, purely through some invention and no little passion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    I think Cunningham has got-tongue tied there , sounds like he gets anxious in interviews especially on tv? I think he was probably implying that the situation Huddersfield were in , ie, bottom of the league, was unjust especially as they had lost quite a few games narrowly and that in that respect he was pleased for them getting a result , albeit at Saints' expense!
    I think everyone in the Kexit camp are probably guilty of interpreting every word/sentence he comes out with to support their view that he should be sacked. Maybe that's unjustified?
    Out of interest, what have you seen from him or any of his interviews, the way the team play, team selection, and the team onfield attitude that says he's getting anything right? I have tried really hard to see a single positive, and apart from him eventually giving in to huge pressure and letting Fages play I have seen nothing. I really would be interested to know what you see, I'm not taking the mickey.

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    If he's this confused and jumbled in media, what must it be like for the players taking instruction from him?

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    "If you looked at the game and didn't look at the result, you'd think it was an evenly matched, close game, that was going to be won or lost by six or 10 points."

    Whatttt?! No. Just no. If he genuinely believes that, I'm really worried now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    For all the claims that AJ Murphy was a poor coach I seem to recall we won 23 games back to back under him at one point!! He was also coach in an era where one team dominated as they were full time when everyone else was semi pro.

    To a degree KC has already had quite a bit of slack cut. I'm sure we were not as poor as often under Royce but it didn't save him ! Part of me wants to give him more time to get it right, until the end of the season at least - the biggest wind up for me has been his comments in the press when I would have been far more impressed if he had called it like it is instead of the bullshit he has continually spouted. I think he has lost so much credibility due to that.
    Agreed

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    From outside it appears that our whole strategy is to train hard (those videos at the start of each year, running up hills and diving into cold ponds) and then grind every game until the opposition is tired out. I'm just wondering if all the "hard work" means that we're taking the field already tired out. We looked absolutely gone at times and it's leading to stupid penalties and missed tackles.
    If that pre-season training has tired the squad out, they need to have good long hard look at themselves and lay off the weights a bit. Hill training is brilliant for building stamina and fitness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geordie_saint View Post
    If that pre-season training has tired the squad out, they need to have good long hard look at themselves and lay off the weights a bit. Hill training is brilliant for building stamina and fitness.
    Nail on the head!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_Claire View Post
    Out of interest, what have you seen from him or any of his interviews, the way the team play, team selection, and the team onfield attitude that says he's getting anything right? I have tried really hard to see a single positive, and apart from him eventually giving in to huge pressure and letting Fages play I have seen nothing. I really would be interested to know what you see, I'm not taking the mickey.
    It is difficult to think of much isn't it? I do think he should be given more time though , at least until the end of the season! Supporters need to be patient. My old dad would have said 'ive seen it all before!' That's not far from the truth about Saints. Over the decades there has been a lot of underachievements and disappointments, but the success of the mid 90's- mid 2000's has raised unrealistic expectations.
    Last edited by Houghwood Saint; 25th May 2016 at 20:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    It is difficult to think of much isn't it?
    That's just it. I simply cannot think of anything, which I do find incredibly worrying!

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    Quote Originally Posted by geordie_saint View Post
    If that pre-season training has tired the squad out, they need to have good long hard look at themselves and lay off the weights a bit. Hill training is brilliant for building stamina and fitness.
    Well obviously I'm not saying they are still tired from that...but you know that already so not sure what your point is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    There's certain themes that keep repeating in interviews this season. The "energy battle" and "hard work" - as in the only way we will improve is through hard work, not different tactics, coaching, etc

    From outside it appears that our whole strategy is to train hard (those videos at the start of each year, running up hills and diving into cold ponds) and then grind every game until the opposition is tired out. I'm just wondering if all the "hard work" means that we're taking the field already tired out. We looked absolutely gone at times and it's leading to stupid penalties and missed tackles

    I'm all for working hard but are our training methods becoming counter-productive? Again as I said I'm looking from the outside so only asking the question

    That is how it seems to me anyway
    I said at the start of the season that the videos of them running through mud and diving into cold ponds etc was a waste of time, and IIRC I was vilified for saying that. But it's no surprise that the team seems unable to cope and gets run off the pitch whenever we play in good conditions and a dry track. I don't even know who our conditioner is but the fact is that that type of 'tough' training is usually employed by people who can't get legitimate athletic gains in the players. We have a team full of sluggish bodybuilders who look great, but that's not what it's about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Well obviously I'm not saying they are still tired from that...but you know that already so not sure what your point is?
    It wasn't aimed at you; I'm as miffed as you about the current fitness of many in the squad. So my point is considering their so called pre-season, they are unfit and probably didn't do anywhere near enough hill reps compared to time in the gym. I think it is unacceptable.

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