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Thread: EU Referendum - Who's made their mind up

  1. #51
    In The South Stand 49er's Avatar
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    A world war will sort it. Just have to decide who's side we want to be on..

    Trump v Putin. The remake of Doctor Strangelove.

    On a serious note.. I actually believe this will be the end of Europe in the long term. Is that good? Who knows.

  2. #52
    In The South Stand 49er's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    I'm not sure labelling the majority of people in this country "thick" or "racist" is the right thing to do, but it demonstrates the humility with which the Remain camp have taken the democratic result of this referendum.

    This is a vote against not just Europe IMO, but modern politics. People are frankly sick of it. Being told that austerity is needed and yet the wealthy continue gaining wealth; being told it's the bottom classes that must pay for the crimes of the rich; being railroaded into further and further integration into Europe, despite not a person having a vote on it. It's evident still, the narrative being created is that people have fallen for lies, or that campaigners didn't campaign well enough. All nonsense - how about the realisation that the majority in this country simply do not want to be a part of Europe. I believe that's a real visceral aspect of British people. It isn't racist, it isn't jingoistic and it isn't bigoted - it's a basic truth. Continental Europeans are different to the UK generally on a macro level; on a micro level the differences between the people of say, Spain and those of Denmark are enormously different. You can't stick everyone together, stick your head in the sand and pretend it's all fine. It isn't and the first time a nation has been asked to confirm their position regarding Europe, they've stuck two fingers up to Brussels and said no. It's hardly surprising.

    Corbyn was elected with a massive grassroots majority by espousing genuine traditional Labour values - socialism. And how did his MPs respond ? They threatened to, and some did, walk away. They refused to work with him. They're blaming him now. So the people of this country that support traditional left wing Labour values choose their man, and the Labour politicians that don't like those values and are instead pseudo centre right Tories hell bent on their place in the sun in glorious London decide bollox to what people want, it doesn't suit our agenda, so we'll do precisely the opposite of what democracy tells us and do our own thing. It's nonsense.

    Don't get me started on Conservatism. A party so devoid of morality that they push people to using food banks whilst the income of the top percentages continue to rise.

    Politics is in deep, deep trouble. It's seeing the rise of the right in the US, the right in continental European nations and the most liberal of them all - the UK - have joined in and shown their dislike and refusal to be taken for fools. We are close to entering an age of extremes in world politics, the likes of which hasn't been seen since the 1930s, when the left and right last raised their heads. It was a result of idiotic politics then, and it's a result of it now.
    I agree with almost all of what you have said, apart from your assessment of Corbyn who IMO is a clever manipulator of the 'follow anything that's red' labour voters who believe old socialism is the still the way forward in a modern world, but all old socialism always has a faint smell of a communist in the air. But I doubt we can discuss this on a forum. This subject needs a pipe and a few pints by a nice fire to sort out..

  3. #53
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    I agree with almost all of what you have said, apart from your assessment of Corbyn who IMO is a clever manipulator of the 'follow anything that's red' labour voters who believe old socialism is the still the way forward in a modern world, but all old socialism always has a faint smell of a communist in the air. But I doubt we can discuss this on a forum. This subject needs a pipe and a few pints by a nice fire to sort out..
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to watch now though because it's not the Tories most impacted by today, they're cautious on Europe anyhow, it's Labour. The most pro-EU party in Britain, that's fought election after election on more integration, that wanted us to join the Euro, that's still blaming Corbyn now rather than face the truth. Will they change tact and drop their crazy pro-EU stance now ? I doubt it. Blair moved them so far right that three things have occurred: they've deserted the core Labour voter in the north, they've allowed the SNP to swoop up all of Scotland's Labour vote and lastly, the Tories are now able to pick off swinging Labour voters in the midlands and south. The funny thing is in embracing London Town and Europe so emphatically, they've effectively managed to ostracise and subsequently lose their entire electorate, and they've done it all themselves ! When core Labour people tell them what they want and elect Corbyn, the Blairites are so stupidly set in their ways that they can't see the wood for the trees. The result ? Today - where core Labour constituencies have stuck two fingers up not just to the Tories, but to the selfish, blind, feckwits that call themselves 'Labour' today.

    Never mind, im sure they'll find another traditional core Labour Oxbridge graduate to represent the unemployed and working classes of the UK once Corbyn's fall occurs.

  4. #54
    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    Conversations I've heard today:

    "I didn't really understand it but I voted out"

    "Glad we're out of the Commonwealth "

    "I voted out, but....."

    "I didn't know what to do but my parents said vote out so I did"

    A microcosm of what has happened on a national scale. Misinformed at best, that's already been admitted with the £350m bull, and completely ignorant at worst!

  5. #55
    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Conversations I've heard today:

    "I didn't really understand it but I voted out"

    "Glad we're out of the Commonwealth "

    "I voted out, but....."

    "I didn't know what to do but my parents said vote out so I did"

    A microcosm of what has happened on a national scale. Misinformed at best, that's already been admitted with the £350m bull, and completely ignorant at worst!
    Could be worse, at least they aren't allowed to carry guns.... Or are they?.. Well someone just shot us in the foot!

  6. #56
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    [QUOTE=Sean Day;655408]Conversations I've heard today:

    "I didn't really understand it but I voted out"

    "Glad we're out of the Commonwealth "

    "I voted out, but....."

    "I didn't know what to do but my parents said vote out so I did"











    With the exception of the commonwealth remark, the rest could also apply to the Stay voters as well.

  7. #57
    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=wirefox;655410]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Conversations I've heard today:

    "I didn't really understand it but I voted out"

    "Glad we're out of the Commonwealth "

    "I voted out, but....."

    "I didn't know what to do but my parents said vote out so I did"











    With the exception of the commonwealth remark, the rest could also apply to the Stay voters as well.
    Possibly, but that's guessing. I'm talking about what I actually heard.

  8. #58
    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Conversations I've heard today:

    "I didn't really understand it but I voted out"

    "Glad we're out of the Commonwealth "

    "I voted out, but....."

    "I didn't know what to do but my parents said vote out so I did"

    A microcosm of what has happened on a national scale. Misinformed at best, that's already been admitted with the £350m bull, and completely ignorant at worst!
    It's like that all over. People saying they wish they weren't allowed to vote as they don't understand it. It annoys me that the typical Leave voter is 60+ in terms of age. They ruined it for everyone and they'll not be around to see it!

    Already financial institutions are saying that they are moving their operations from London to the EU

    Funny about Cornwall - "can we still get the £60m funding each year like we did from the EU?"

    Government - "no"

    And they voted to leave! Morons

  9. #59
    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    It's like that all over. People saying they wish they weren't allowed to vote as they don't understand it. It annoys me that the typical Leave voter is 60+ in terms of age. They ruined it for everyone and they'll not be around to see it!

    Already financial institutions are saying that they are moving their operations from London to the EU

    Funny about Cornwall - "can we still get the £60m funding each year like we did from the EU?"

    Government - "no"

    And they voted to leave! Morons
    Yep, this was a really complex issue, hence 90% of economists and business leaders suggesting we stayed as we were

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    In The South Stand Nickles Forearm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Yep, this was a really complex issue, hence 90% of economists and business leaders suggesting we stayed as we were
    Problem is 'experts' said the single currency was the greatest way forward for trading worldwide from within the single market. How wrong where they? People are cynical of so called experts especially those with vested interests in pro European organisations.

  11. #61
    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    It's like that all over. People saying they wish they weren't allowed to vote as they don't understand it. It annoys me that the typical Leave voter is 60+ in terms of age. They ruined it for everyone and they'll not be around to see it!

    Already financial institutions are saying that they are moving their operations from London to the EU

    Funny about Cornwall - "can we still get the £60m funding each year like we did from the EU?"

    Government - "no"

    And they voted to leave! Morons
    The outs fell for it hook line and sinker and will end up looking back on it with much regret. Sadly we will have to regret it along with them.

  12. #62
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk paulscnthorpe's Avatar
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    Seems to be the only people who are complaining about the result and who voted are the ones who didn't get the result they wanted..

    If the exit campaign are all far right racists, then the in must be all left wing hippies

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    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    Seems to be the only people who are complaining about the result and who voted are the ones who didn't get the result they wanted..

    If the exit campaign are all far right racists, then the in must be all left wing hippies
    Perhaps your right. As long as you don't own property, value workers right, use the NHS or purchase anything that's imported to the UK you should be OK.

  14. #64
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk paulscnthorpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    Perhaps your right. As long as you don't own property, value workers right, use the NHS or purchase anything that's imported to the UK you should be OK.
    You cannot say with any chance certainty though. I can't say for certain we will be more prosperous out the EU as we will be able to agree our own terms

    Just like I can't say we'd have 10 million Turkish here in two years had we stayed in

    That said it was never about immigration for me, the rules and ideas of the EU are outdated in my opinion

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    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    You cannot say with any chance certainty though.

    Just like I can't say we'd have 10 million Turkish here in two years had we stayed in

    That said it was never about immigration for me, the rules and ideas of the EU are outdated in my opinion
    I can say for certain that imports will cost more. Seen the pound today? Don't expect it to rise anytime soon due to a minimum of 2 years uncertainty about our exit from the EU. Then we have the trade deals to look forward to. Hit lows not seen since 85. It's all good.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    I voted out. Im not 65. People suggesting that old folk have stitched up the country is complete nonsense. It wouldn't have even been a close call if it weren't for the rich hippies in London and the Scottish (half of which are lucky to get a say considering they wanted out of the UK last year). Take London and the Scotts out of the equation and it was actually a landslide victory for leave all over the country from folk of all ages. Not just the old.
    None of us have a crystal ball. Im hopeful that this break away will in time be huge for the country. I think it will.
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk paulscnthorpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    I can say for certain that imports will cost more. Seen the pound today? Don't expect it to rise anytime soon due to a minimum of 2 years uncertainty about our exit from the EU. Then we have the trade deals to look forward to. Hit lows not seen since 85. It's all good.
    Back up by end of play FTSE up 2% this week..

    You can spin figures how you wish, but following the initial panic this morning we're back at levels earlier in the year

  18. #68
    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    Back up by end of play FTSE up 2% this week..

    You can spin figures how you wish, but following the initial panic this morning we're back at levels earlier in the year
    It's no spin. The pound touched 1.50 against the dollar yesterday as with an in vote could have reached likely over 1.55, it's at 1.37 now after recovering slightly from 1.33.

    Its fine if the experts don't register with people for now, but this will all come out in the wash. Let's visit this thread in a years time. Some really are in for a rude awakening and it was all there right in front of us all.

  19. #69
    In The South Stand 49er's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    I can say for certain that imports will cost more. Seen the pound today? Don't expect it to rise anytime soon due to a minimum of 2 years uncertainty about our exit from the EU. Then we have the trade deals to look forward to. Hit lows not seen since 85. It's all good.
    Exporters will be better off. Most small businesses in UK are exporters..
    Just heard a European money expert just say the drop in markets was half what was expected.
    As said above we can pick figures out to suit our leanings.

    Germany have a published paper saying they want to treat UK as a special member case.
    They fear France, Austria, Finland and Hungary may look to leave.
    I think the European Union have more to worry about than us, as it slowly implodes.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 49er View Post
    Exporters will be better off. Most small businesses in UK are exporters..
    Just heard a European money expert just say the drop in markets was half what was expected.
    As said above we can pick figures out to suit our leanings.

    Germany have a published paper saying they want to treat UK as a special member case.
    They fear France, Austria, Finland and Hungary may look to leave.
    I think the European Union have more to worry about than us, as it slowly implodes.
    But the man in the street who's voted for this doesn't benefit from exports. You would struggle to find an out voter with that on his mind. Now imports, that's where they get hit. We import far, far more than we export. Far more.

    Anyway these kind of discussions can rumble on forever. We all clearly have different views. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and everything works out. Either that or I'm going to the Winchester and waiting for all this to blow over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    It's no spin. The pound touched 1.50 against the dollar yesterday as with an in vote could have reached likely over 1.55, it's at 1.37 now after recovering slightly from 1.33.

    Its fine if the experts don't register with people for now, but this will all come out in the wash. Let's visit this thread in a years time. Some really are in for a rude awakening and it was all there right in front of us all.
    I remember going to France in 2008, I got €1 for £1

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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    But the man in the street who's voted for this doesn't benefit from exports. You would struggle to find an out voter with that on his mind. Now imports, that's where they get hit. We import far, far more than we export. Far more.

    Anyway these kind of discussions can rumble on forever. We all clearly have different views. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and everything works out. Either that or I'm going to the Winchester and waiting for all this to blow over.
    Correct, democracy has spoken, no going back, no second votes..

    We need to all stick together, even the Scottish and see where we go from here

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    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    No one is saying it was just old people that voted Leave but as you went up the age brackets the % of Leave goes up 71% of 18-24 voted Remain but it was the opposite for 60+

    Same with Education, there's a direct correlation between a lack of education and a leave vote. It doesn't mean all Leave voters are uneducated it's just that more of them will be. Opposite for a Remain voter

  24. #74
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to watch now though because it's not the Tories most impacted by today, they're cautious on Europe anyhow, it's Labour. The most pro-EU party in Britain, that's fought election after election on more integration, that wanted us to join the Euro, that's still blaming Corbyn now rather than face the truth. Will they change tact and drop their crazy pro-EU stance now ? I doubt it. Blair moved them so far right that three things have occurred: they've deserted the core Labour voter in the north, they've allowed the SNP to swoop up all of Scotland's Labour vote and lastly, the Tories are now able to pick off swinging Labour voters in the midlands and south. The funny thing is in embracing London Town and Europe so emphatically, they've effectively managed to ostracise and subsequently lose their entire electorate, and they've done it all themselves ! When core Labour people tell them what they want and elect Corbyn, the Blairites are so stupidly set in their ways that they can't see the wood for the trees. The result ? Today - where core Labour constituencies have stuck two fingers up not just to the Tories, but to the selfish, blind, feckwits that call themselves 'Labour' today.

    Never mind, im sure they'll find another traditional core Labour Oxbridge graduate to represent the unemployed and working classes of the UK once Corbyn's fall occurs.
    Jereny Corbyn is a lily livered fcukwit!

    We all knew that the traditional Labour support was going to stick two fingers up at Cameron's wish to remain, so if Corbyn was with Cameron on this one (and he supposedly was) then it was his duty as a Labour leader to get out there into the Labour heartlands and tell his people that this is not a vote against the Government, it's a vote for what is right for them and our country. Now if they had any belief in him, as the leader of their party, then more would have gone along with him. However, he never enforced that belief, he hid in the background and watched it all unfold in front of him. He watched the Labour communities side with the 'Leave' campaign and didn't lift a finger to stop it.

    The Labour, working class areas have won this election for the 'Leave' Party, there is no doubt about that, and he did NOTHING to try and garner the support of his people. That's shameful and pathetic, in the same way that Cameron's efforts were appalling in large swathes of the Tory dominated Home Counties.

    I said at the time Corbyn won the leadership of the Labour Party that he'd just given the Tories a free licence to twelve years in Downing Street and I believe that more than ever now. All Labour needed was a semi-competent leader up against a very weak David Cameron and the end would have been nigh for this Conservative Government. Miliband was embarrassing and this guy's a step down even from him.

    People have to realise that his far left idealogy is dead as a dodo in this country and we'll never see a far left Labour Prime Minister again. The old school wanted it back to further their prospects, but anyone can tell you we live in a different world now. There's far less true working class and far too much 'Middle England' for socialism to ever be credible again.

    The frightening thing out of all this is that now disenfranchised Labour supporters have commenced the shift to UKIP style policies. They're the winners out of this. People in the provincial towns will now see Labour as even more of a failure. They'll see the beaming Farage, the Unionism, the jingoism, the anti-immigrationism and the move IS going to happen, like it's happening in France, in Austria, in the Netherlands and in Italy; and it's only a matter of time in some of these countries before far-right extremism is entrusted with power. Then what?

    I could go on and on about the economy. I work in construction and believe this is a total disaster, especially for our regional cities, but the big fear isn't just that; it's that the far right organisations of Europe are delighted with it and are sniffing opportunities.

    We have created a powderkeg here and Cameron and Corbyn's pathetically weak campaigns have helped create this situation.

    The nation has spoke. The sad thing is a hell of a lot of people have voted not because they think Britain will be economically stronger out, but because they have a distaste for immigrants. That's the reasoning many give and that tells you that a lot of our supposedly left wing working classes have a lot of right wing tendencies. What today tells you is that these supposed left wing, socialist communities are not. They only vote for Labour because they want to vote for a party that can feasibly oust the Tories. They don't do it because they follow the ideals of the party they vote for, so the only way to get their vote and that of others in a General Election is to give them a leader that is credible; someone who could actually lead rather than an 'old school' figurehead there simply to please the militants.

    Whether you like middle of the road Labour or not, that, along with UKIP, is now the only credible alternative to a lifetime of Conservative rule. True left wing beliefs in this country are in such a minority now that anyone who continues to take the party down that path will see them become as credible as the Lib-Dems.

    It's not the way that I want it, but people need to start seeing what's going on. There's no point in flogging a dead horse when we can be looking at ways to progress. There's no point in blaming Blair either, for all his faults. There's a reason that Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were slaughtered in elections. The country simply won't go for Labour bordering on socialism in charge of it. It's gone. It's over. We haven't voted a true 'Leftie' in to power for over FORTY years!

    I'm afraid these are frightening times for a once great country that is about to find that it isn't quite the world player it thought it still was.
    Last edited by DD; 24th June 2016 at 19:50.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Steps 1 to 6 Non-League Football

  25. #75
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    No one is saying it was just old people that voted Leave but as you went up the age brackets the % of Leave goes up 71% of 18-24 voted Remain but it was the opposite for 60+

    Same with Education,there's a direct correlation between a lack of education and a leave vote. It doesn't mean all Leave voters are uneducated it's just that more of them will be. Opposite for a Remain voter
    Do you have any evidence for this ?

    Wealth is a far more likely correlation, although history, heritage and individual motive are equally as likely.

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