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Thread: FOOTBALL - The Close Season

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    Default FOOTBALL - The Close Season

    The 2014/2015 season is over and the thread has been closed (despite an FA Cup still to play) so I've opened this close season one

    Just reading that Liverpool have had a bid rejected for Soton's Clyne. Their other targets are Ings and Milner. To me they are not the sort of players a title challenging side should even consider

    What does everyone else think? Am I doing them a disservice?

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    Default FOOTBALL - The Close Season

    It tells me that LVG has had second thoughts on Clyne as Ian Ladyman (good journo for the Mail) told me privately on Twitter that we were definitely in for him.

    I think Ings and Milner would be good signings, basically both would cost nothing leaving money for elsewhere. Ings has scored 11 goals in a poor PL team and City want to keep Milner which tells its own story.

    Also with all due respect to Liverpool, I don't think they can be described as a title winning side anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    The 2014/2015 season is over and the thread has been closed (despite an FA Cup still to play) so I've opened this close season one

    Just reading that Liverpool have had a bid rejected for Soton's Clyne. Their other targets are Ings and Milner. To me they are not the sort of players a title challenging side should even consider

    What does everyone else think? Am I doing them a disservice?
    No, spot on. I was chatting with one of my Liverpool supporting mates yesterday about the kind of player LFC are after. Good players one and all, but they are players that the Top 4 don't want (or in Milner's case City will replace him with a better player) and Liverpool are scrapping around with Spurs and maybe Everton for the best of the rest. Milner for me would be a good signing as Liverpool need a goalscoring threat from the centre of midfield, but if Milner was a massive improvement on what Liverpool had then they basically wouldn't be able to sign him as Chelsea, Arsenal or United would be knocking on his door instead.

    It's the same with Ings, who looks a decent striker but again it will between Liverpool and Spurs for him, which suggests he is not top, top class. If you look at the players United are linked with (Hummels, Gundogen, Higuain, Bale etc) and then look at the players Liverpool are linked with (Clyne, Milner, Benteke, Ings) you see a dramatic difference between the collective quality of both sets of targets. If United get even 2 of those 4 they are linked with then they will increase the gap between themselves and Liverpool.

    Si always says that Liverpool and Tottenham are competing for the same position and the same kind of player. This Summer he will be proved totally correct. The main problem for Liverpool is that last Summer they had cash on the hip, Champions League football and an exciting brand of football to throw in the face of genuine world class players, but they settled for second rate players like Lallana, Markovic and Lovren.

    It was a wasted Summer and Liverpool have screwed themselves. I can see them getting Milner and Ings, and maybe Benteke, which along with the arrival of Origi gives them some more genuine firepower and should make them a better team and mean they get more wins and more points than this season. But, given the players United will get (and one or two Arsenal will bring in) it won't get Liverpool close enough to the Top 4. It was a wasted opportunity for them last Summer.

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    Yeah they are all decent, solid players but if United were linked with them I would be very disappointed

    I think if United buy a striker with pace and a touch of physicality then we can get back in the mix. I bet no side had more ball possession than us last season but we saw very little end product. Van Persie is past his best and Rooney isn't comfortable leading the line

    Also need another Carrick type player too. He's never been quite top drawer for me but he does a lot for the team and when he's injured we miss him

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    really is sorry Reacher's Avatar
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    We need a RB, one if not two centre halves, a box to box midfielder plus the two you describe above. And that's not forgetting Depay who we have already signed! Busy summer ahead

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    Gray returning seems to have given this forum some impetus. Hopefully we can get everyone back contributing as it's by far the best forum on here in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Gray returning seems to have given this forum some impetus. Hopefully we can get everyone back contributing as it's by far the best forum on here in my opinion.
    It's the only one (bar the NFL one in the Autumn/Winter) that I really keep a consistent interest in. I just haven't enjoyed the season too much so there have been times when I just haven't had many positive contributions to make, and whinging about my own club can get tiresome for everyone else.

    Hopefully we can keep this going throughout the Summer as the teams change shape, the signings come in and we all have a better idea of who will look better or worse come the middle of August.

    We also have the Copa America this Summer which might be half decent, although most games are on really late and the TV rights have bizarrely gone to Premier Sports.

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    Yeah hope so mate. Could be an interesting transfer window for us, City and Arsenal. Can't really see Chelsea spending too much, just some tweaks here and there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    No, spot on. I was chatting with one of my Liverpool supporting mates yesterday about the kind of player LFC are after. Good players one and all, but they are players that the Top 4 don't want (or in Milner's case City will replace him with a better player) and Liverpool are scrapping around with Spurs and maybe Everton for the best of the rest. Milner for me would be a good signing as Liverpool need a goalscoring threat from the centre of midfield, but if Milner was a massive improvement on what Liverpool had then they basically wouldn't be able to sign him as Chelsea, Arsenal or United would be knocking on his door instead.

    It's the same with Ings, who looks a decent striker but again it will between Liverpool and Spurs for him, which suggests he is not top, top class. If you look at the players United are linked with (Hummels, Gundogen, Higuain, Bale etc) and then look at the players Liverpool are linked with (Clyne, Milner, Benteke, Ings) you see a dramatic difference between the collective quality of both sets of targets. If United get even 2 of those 4 they are linked with then they will increase the gap between themselves and Liverpool.

    Si always says that Liverpool and Tottenham are competing for the same position and the same kind of player. This Summer he will be proved totally correct. The main problem for Liverpool is that last Summer they had cash on the hip, Champions League football and an exciting brand of football to throw in the face of genuine world class players, but they settled for second rate players like Lallana, Markovic and Lovren.

    It was a wasted Summer and Liverpool have screwed themselves. I can see them getting Milner and Ings, and maybe Benteke, which along with the arrival of Origi gives them some more genuine firepower and should make them a better team and mean they get more wins and more points than this season. But, given the players United will get (and one or two Arsenal will bring in) it won't get Liverpool close enough to the Top 4. It was a wasted opportunity for them last Summer.
    Just to expand on this, as I agree with everything you say.

    I don't think CL football for Spurs or Liverpool actually matters too much to prospective signings. We get CL football so rarely that it doesn't automatically put us up there for the real top players, either financially or in their minds. The year we made CL, we signed Sandro, van der Vaart, Pienaar and Gallas. Nice players but hardly top end. We'd have likely got all of them without CL and so it was for Liverpool.

    To have any impact, CL needs to be achieved consistently.

    Re signings between the two clubs. Well, the whole 'get your own scouts' banter, demonstrated it perfectly. The two clubs are literally looking at the exact same bracket of player: young talent with big potential or just below elite level performers.

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    One for Dave here. Who do you think City will sign? Where are you looking to strengthen? My worry is that you will get Pogba but if I was to have a bet I would say he will end up at Barca.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    I don't think CL football for Spurs or Liverpool actually matters too much to prospective signings. We get CL football so rarely that it doesn't automatically put us up there for the real top players, either financially or in their minds.
    Without wishing to start the whole Liverpool/Spurs argument again, I will slightly disagree with your point as regards to Liverpool. They didn't sneak into 4th spot last season, they finished 2nd, came very close to winning the title and they have a pedigree of being a club that actually does things in the European Cup when it's in it. I still think that their history and success carries more clout than Liverpool's rivals would wish to admit. I think top players would have been attracted to Liverpool last Summer because they had just mounted a serious title challenge and were a young team with a (at the time) young creative coach who looked like he was being successful at building a team full of players who had yet to reach their peak.

    For me, I think that would have carried more clout than a player looking at Spurs after finishing 4th. You are entirely correct in saying that in the last 6-7 years neither team has been anything but a sporadic player in the Top 4, but Liverpool carry more clout subconsciously in the minds of players and fans overseas, and because of what they did in 2013-14 they would have been able to attract better players than they went for. Lallana, Lovren, Markovic etc would have gone there even if they'd not made the CL at all IMO, much like Ings and Benteke might this Summer. But they could have gone for better than those players because they were Liverpool and at that time and place last Summer they were a big European club on the back of a title challenge and with loads of promise. They blew it, and this Summer they are back to being the big club who haven't won anything proper for a decade and are outside of the Top 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    One for Dave here. Who do you think City will sign? Where are you looking to strengthen? My worry is that you will get Pogba but if I was to have a bet I would say he will end up at Barca.
    I think Pogba ends up in Spain as well Stu. Personally as a fan of Italian football I'd like to see world class players like him stay in Serie A, but I don't see it. On a side note, even though I have no love for Juventus I think it would be great for Italian football if they win the European Cup Final. I think European football is better for having strong Italian clubs and the CL as a competition needs more than just English, Spanish and German teams being dominant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Without wishing to start the whole Liverpool/Spurs argument again, I will slightly disagree with your point as regards to Liverpool. They didn't sneak into 4th spot last season, they finished 2nd, came very close to winning the title and they have a pedigree of being a club that actually does things in the European Cup when it's in it. I still think that their history and success carries more clout than Liverpool's rivals would wish to admit. I think top players would have been attracted to Liverpool last Summer because they had just mounted a serious title challenge and were a young team with a (at the time) young creative coach who looked like he was being successful at building a team full of players who had yet to reach their peak.

    For me, I think that would have carried more clout than a player looking at Spurs after finishing 4th. You are entirely correct in saying that in the last 6-7 years neither team has been anything but a sporadic player in the Top 4, but Liverpool carry more clout subconsciously in the minds of players and fans overseas, and because of what they did in 2013-14 they would have been able to attract better players than they went for. Lallana, Lovren, Markovic etc would have gone there even if they'd not made the CL at all IMO, much like Ings and Benteke might this Summer. But they could have gone for better than those players because they were Liverpool and at that time and place last Summer they were a big European club on the back of a title challenge and with loads of promise. They blew it, and this Summer they are back to being the big club who haven't won anything proper for a decade and are outside of the Top 4.
    I think this perception is incorrect. Regardless of how, Liverpool and Spurs have each qualified for the CL once in six years. That's basically since City arrived. Their clout is such that their top players want away regardless of position as soon as an elite opportunity turns up.

    In many ways, 2013/14 was the anomaly for Liverpool. It was marvellous for a football fan because it gave hope to all that it can be done. I think we all know that, that kind of season is incredibly rare though. What it has done is create this image again of a club consistently fighting it out. In truth, they've finished below Spurs in 5 of the last 6 seasons. Their average league finish in that period is 6th, despite finishing 2nd in one of them. Arguably, the more realistic view is that Liverpool competing for top players is laughable. Exactly as it is for Spurs.

    Anyhow, we should agree to disagree on this subject as I think we both know each other's opinion on this one !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    We need a RB, one if not two centre halves, a box to box midfielder plus the two you describe above. And that's not forgetting Depay who we have already signed! Busy summer ahead
    Kyle Walker.

    I'll drive him !


    I'm interested to see what Arsenal do this summer. I think they're really close and that stadium looks to be paying off big time. I think they could go big this summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    I think this perception is incorrect. Regardless of how, Liverpool and Spurs have each qualified for the CL once in six years. That's basically since City arrived. Their clout is such that their top players want away regardless of position as soon as an elite opportunity turns up.

    In many ways, 2013/14 was the anomaly for Liverpool. It was marvellous for a football fan because it gave hope to all that it can be done. I think we all know that, that kind of season is incredibly rare though. What it has done is create this image again of a club consistently fighting it out. In truth, they've finished below Spurs in 5 of the last 6 seasons. Their average league finish in that period is 6th, despite finishing 2nd in one of them. Arguably, the more realistic view is that Liverpool competing for top players is laughable. Exactly as it is for Spurs.

    Anyhow, we should agree to disagree on this subject as I think we both know each other's opinion on this one !
    I entirely agree that we are not going to agree!

    However, your post here kind of proves what I'm saying about Liverpool and Spurs. Spurs have indeed been slightly more consistent than Liverpool since City's emergence, agreed. Spurs have finished above Liverpool in 5 of the 6 seasons. But... it takes a Spurs fan to point this out and most people will think 'Really? I wouldn't have thought that'. Your view is a fact based reading of the league tables and you are a domestic football fan with a vested interest in talking up Spurs, and factually what you have said can't be argued with.

    However, this means nothing to the foreign player who might want to play in England for 4-5 years, earn a decent wedge and play for a big club. He isn't going to think 'ah, I wonder who has finished higher each year in the last 6 season' or 'I wonder how many times this team has finished in the Top 4 since 2006' etc, etc. He is going to think (and this is last Summer) 'Liverpool want me, they nearly won the title in England last season, they are in the Champions League NOW, they are world famous, they have won the European Cup loads of times, I remember Istanbul, they have a world famous ground, the Kop, blah, blah, blah' and that would be a big factor in attracting that player. Last Summer Liverpool had all of those subconscious factors glowing brightly.

    Spurs on the other hand have hardly any of those subconscious factors, and the cold hard facts that you rightfully state about league position, CL qualifications, etc are not the most important things to players. The things players go for are money, spotlight, playing for a team with fans everywhere, sponsorship deals off the back of all of that, becoming world famous, etc, etc. Liverpool provide those things more than Spurs do, and everyone on here who is neutral knows that this is true.

    Whether moving to Liverpool gives you a better chance of winning something or finishing Top 4 than going to Spurs is another matter completely, and evidence suggests that it doesn't at all. You are spot on about that, but it only matters so much.

    We'll change the subject now that I've had the last word!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    However, this means nothing to the foreign player who might want to play in England for 4-5 years, earn a decent wedge and play for a big club. He isn't going to think 'ah, I wonder who has finished higher each year in the last 6 season' or 'I wonder how many times this team has finished in the Top 4 since 2006' etc, etc. He is going to think (and this is last Summer) 'Liverpool want me, they nearly won the title in England last season, they are in the Champions League NOW, they are world famous, they have won the European Cup loads of times, I remember Istanbul, they have a world famous ground, the Kop, blah, blah, blah' and that would be a big factor in attracting that player. Last Summer Liverpool had all of those subconscious factors glowing brightly.

    Spurs on the other hand have hardly any of those subconscious factors, and the cold hard facts that you rightfully state about league position, CL qualifications, etc are not the most important things to players. The things players go for are money, spotlight, playing for a team with fans everywhere, sponsorship deals off the back of all of that, becoming world famous, etc, etc. Liverpool provide those things more than Spurs do, and everyone on here who is neutral knows that this is true.

    Whether moving to Liverpool gives you a better chance of winning something or finishing Top 4 than going to Spurs is another matter completely, and evidence suggests that it doesn't at all. You are spot on about that, but it only matters so much.
    Sorry, Gray, not so much about the last word but it's a subject that bemuses me so I'll respond. Completely understand if you choose to ignore my response as it's a tiresome subject !

    I'm not sure why you seem to love Liverpool so much; I don't understand it but it's clear you have a soft spot for them.

    Of course what I point out are cold hard facts. If we cannot use those as evidence, then what good are they ? The truth is that all of the subconscious factors you refer to have resulted in a) Liverpool still signing nobody of note and b) still losing top players. Suarez publicly, openly, pleaded to be allowed to join Arsenal. Sterling has publicly admitted he's flattered with being linked with them as well - a club that finished two places, five points and 24 goals worse off than Liverpool only 12 months ago. Where are the subconscious factors in this instance ?

    The things players go for - money, sponsorship, spotlight, becoming world famous (Modric, Bale, Kane, Carrick, Berbatov etc etc don't imply Spurs have any difficulty in this regard so I don't see this point) - are pretty much identical at both clubs, hence why both clubs sign the same calibre of player.

    I get that you have a liking for Liverpool and that's entirely fine. However, I have a right to stick up for my club whom despite the hysteria the media whip up and the uneducated football follower, have consistently now done better than this mythical entity from Anfield that we're all supposed to believe is up there at the top end. They just aren't - it's absolute nonsense.

    You won't find me arguing about the size of clubs. Liverpool are miles bigger and I've said so many times. However, history is precisely that. Liverpool have fell far behind, to the same level Spurs are at. I've been saying it for 3/4 years now and articles recently written in the media suggests that they're finally picking up on it as well. Reading Neville suggest that Liverpool are 'in danger' of falling behind cracked me up. In the last six years they've finished - 7th, 6th, 8th, 7th, 2nd and 6th. 'In danger', Gary ?

    I sometimes wonder what Liverpool other people are seeing because I don't get it. A grand club with a grand history. Today however, nothing but a top 6 club.

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    Default FOOTBALL - The Close Season

    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    Sorry, Gray, not so much about the last word but it's a subject that bemuses me so I'll respond. Completely understand if you choose to ignore my response as it's a tiresome subject !

    Gray, I'm not sure why you seem to love Liverpool so much; I don't understand it but it's clear you have a soft spot for them.

    Of course what I point out are cold hard facts. If we cannot use those as evidence, then what good are they ? The truth is that all of the subconscious factors you refer to have resulted in a) Liverpool still signing nobody of note and b) still losing top players. Suarez publicly, openly, pleaded to be allowed to join Arsenal. Sterling has publicly admitted he's flattered with being linked with them as well - a club that finished two places, five points and 24 goals worse off than Liverpool only 12 months ago. Where are the subconscious factors in this instance ?

    The things players go for - money, sponsorship, spotlight, becoming world famous (Modric, Bale, Kane etc don't imply Spurs have any difficulty in this regard so I don't see this point) - are pretty much identical at both clubs, hence why both clubs sign the same calibre of player.

    I get that you have a liking for Liverpool and that's entirely fine. However, I have a right to stick up for my club whom despite the hysteria the media whip up and the uneducated football follower, have consistently now done better than this mythical entity from Anfield that we're all supposed to believe is up there at the top end. They just aren't - it's absolute nonsense.

    You won't find me arguing about the size of clubs. Liverpool are miles bigger and I've said so many times. However, history is precisely that. Liverpool have fell far behind, to the same level Spurs are at. I've been saying it for 3/4 years now and articles recently written in the media suggests that they're finally picking up on it as well. Reading Neville suggest that Liverpool are 'in danger' of falling behind cracked me up. In the last six years they've finished - 7th, 6th, 8th, 7th, 2nd and 6th. 'In danger', Gary ?

    I sometimes wonder what Liverpool other people are seeing because I don't get it. A grand club with a grand history. Today however, nothing but a top 6 club.
    I kind of see both points here. Factually Liverpool are way behind the cue ball however they are still undeniably a huge draw for players. Despite my hatred of them they are a giant of a club even now. Their history dictates that. They are a bigger club than Chelsea and City.

    I would go as far to say that if you went to every country in the world and asked random people to name two English clubs without having time to think, that Utd and Liverpool would come out as the top two overall.

    I think that's what Gray is alluding to, that's how I read it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I kind of see both points here. Factually Liverpool are way behind the cue ball however they are still undeniably a huge draw for players. Despite my hatred of them they are a giant of a club even now. Their history dictates that. They are a bigger club than Chelsea and City.

    I would go as far to say that if you went to every country in the world and asked random people to name two English clubs without having time to think, that Utd and Liverpool would come out as the top two overall.

    I think that's what Gray is alluding to, that's how I read it anyway.
    This is what I just don't get. For all their history and apparent attraction, why did these happen.....


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...ng-places.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Liverpool.html

    http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/spor...o-chose-155545

    http://www.football-news.com/categor...-201009060005/



    I'm not arguing that Spurs are bigger here; I'm simply disputing this belief that Liverpool are still the behemoth they once were. In today's footballing world, Liverpool represent a fallen giant. No footballer would even debate going to Liverpool over Chelsea or City today. It wouldn't even be a contest, regardless of traditional standing.
    Last edited by SS; 29th May 2015 at 14:01.

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    I would argue London is the factor here. That's an area in which Utd, City and Liverpool will never be able to compete with if they are choosing a club based on where they will live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I would argue London is the factor here. That's an area in which Utd, City and Liverpool will never be able to compete with if they are choosing a club based on where they will live.
    More to do with the fact that Spurs and Liverpool are direct competitors. London wouldn't be a factor for a player if it were a choice between City/United and Tottenham. It wouldn't even come into it.

    London becomes a factor precisely because Liverpool are not a step up from Spurs any longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I would argue London is the factor here. That's an area in which Utd, City and Liverpool will never be able to compete with if they are choosing a club based on where they will live.
    A massive factor. For players that just want to be paid well and not really compete at the very top level it's a big draw

    London (the city anyway) is so different to the rest of the country. The likes of Manchester and Birmingham are big places with lots going on but nothing compared to London

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    A massive factor. For players that just want to be paid well and not really compete at the very top level it's a big draw

    London (the city anyway) is so different to the rest of the country. The likes of Manchester and Birmingham are big places with lots going on but nothing compared to London
    This is the kind of delusionary stuff that keeps Liverpudlians going.

    London would categorically not be a factor if Spurs and Manchester United went for the same player. No player on earth would sign for Spurs because they're in London in that instance. Same with Manchester City.

    It becomes a factor when two clubs of a similar standing want the same player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS View Post
    This is the kind of delusionary stuff that keeps Liverpudlians going.

    London would categorically not be a factor if Spurs and Manchester United went for the same player. No player on earth would sign for Spurs because they're in London in that instance. Same with Manchester City.

    It becomes a factor when two clubs of a similar standing want the same player.
    Oh I agree. We (United) wouldn't be in the same market as Spurs for players usually. We'd rather let them develop at Spurs and then take them (not something I particularly like but it's the way we do things)

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    I get accused of being pro-United, pro-Liverpool, anti-City etc, etc all the time Si, it's nothing new and I'll take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I get accused of being pro-United, pro-Liverpool, anti-City etc, etc all the time Si, it's nothing new and I'll take it.
    Just waiting for DD to come on now and start hammering me about goal differences

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