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Thread: Sam Burgess

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    Learning All The Songs jonimac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    Perhaps that's a bit like questioning Roby's standing as a hooker as he's never won a scrum in his career. The reality is that you cannot assess a RU player using RL criteria, or vice versa, as they are different games requiring different strategies and skill sets.
    Good point. Horton was at a Rugby Union school but like all of us we played running attacking league style rugby which drew criticism from our opponents in those days. We had to play it that way because they were bigger than us and couldn't win the ball in scrums and line-outs. I call it snobbery in those days but we won more than we lost.

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    One of the best I ever seen was Jonathan Davies who excelled in both codes and in more than one position too. The lad could also kick a bit as well.

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    The bottom line is that though the Rugby Union backs are better coached and fitter then they have ever been there is a serious lack of talent in the scrum half and stand off area. Which sums up the RL game as well. To make it worse the pitch is cluttered up by line out and scrummage specialists many of whom have a very low level of actual rugby skills and simply get in the way and cluttet up the pitch. There is no doubt if union got rid of a few players per side it would be a far more attractive game.

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    Gibbs was good in both codes. Unfortunately didn't stay long in our game. A good measure of how good RL was for RU was the Lions tour of '97 to South Africa, with most of the best performers recently returning from League(Gibbs,Tait,Quinnell etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert80 View Post
    The bottom line is that though the Rugby Union backs are better coached and fitter then they have ever been there is a serious lack of talent in the scrum half and stand off area. Which sums up the RL game as well. To make it worse the pitch is cluttered up by line out and scrummage specialists many of whom have a very low level of actual rugby skills and simply get in the way and cluttet up the pitch. There is no doubt if union got rid of a few players per side it would be a far more attractive game.
    It would be called Rugby League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallahassee View Post
    Gibbs was good in both codes. Unfortunately didn't stay long in our game. A good measure of how good RL was for RU was the Lions tour of '97 to South Africa, with most of the best performers recently returning from League(Gibbs,Tait,Quinnell etc.)
    You could argue that those players returned from a full time sport into one that had just gone pro and that's why they stood out.

    Also it's fair to point out that many of our games legends and our clubs legends came from Union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert80 View Post
    There is no doubt if union got rid of a few players per side it would be a far more attractive game.
    What many RL fans fail to appreciate is that a lot of people are not only attracted to flowing running rugby but also to proper scrummaging, line-outs, rucks & mauls, the ability to spiral kick etc. For me, RU offers playing opportunities to a wider range of shapes and sizes and does not exclude someone who is 6' 10" or 20 stones but without real ball-handling or running abilities.

    Beauty, of course, is in the eye of the beholder but there are many thousands who enjoy watching or playing RU because it is multi-faceted; for those that don't share this enthusiasm, perhaps they should really just not bother to watch it rather than seek to change it radically. Or are we next going to work out ways of changing American Football or Aussie Rules into something that they aren't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
    What many RL fans fail to appreciate is that a lot of people are not only attracted to flowing running rugby but also to proper scrummaging, line-outs, rucks & mauls, the ability to spiral kick etc. For me, RU offers playing opportunities to a wider range of shapes and sizes and does not exclude someone who is 6' 10" or 20 stones but without real ball-handling or running abilities.

    Beauty, of course, is in the eye of the beholder but there are many thousands who enjoy watching or playing RU because it is multi-faceted; for those that don't share this enthusiasm, perhaps they should really just not bother to watch it rather than seek to change it radically. Or are we next going to work out ways of changing American Football or Aussie Rules into something that they aren't?
    Having played Union in places like Gloucester & Redruth I can confirm the supporters love nothing better than a good scrum on your try line.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Having played Union in places like Gloucester & Redruth I can confirm the supporters love nothing better than a good scrum on your try line.


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    100% correct. Many of the technicalities a typical league fan would find mundane such as scrums are treasured to your dyed in the wool union fan.

    Also completely agree with Tabascos point on body sizes.

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    RU followers have the same disregard for RL. They say RL is boring 4/5 tackles and then a kick. Scrums that mean nothing, with the commentators saying head and feed when the ball goes behind the front row.
    Tabasco is right, RU enables anyone (size & shape) to get a game on a Saturday afternoon so i wouldn't knock it. I played both games in my time to a reasonable standard and and enjoyed both. Especially the after games hospitality in RU.

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    Hospitality was great especially in Yorkshire. Great social life too. I get frustrated with youngsters who aren't interested and would rather sit in front of a screen (like me now, but I'm old)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sausalito View Post
    RU followers have the same disregard for RL. They say RL is boring 4/5 tackles and then a kick. Scrums that mean nothing, with the commentators saying head and feed when the ball goes behind the front row.
    Tabasco is right, RU enables anyone (size & shape) to get a game on a Saturday afternoon so i wouldn't knock it. I played both games in my time to a reasonable standard and and enjoyed both. Especially the after games hospitality in RU.
    Is the game hospitality different within rugby league the union lads in my experience jut want to get ••••ed and to be honest most of them then become a pain in the arse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon1964 View Post
    Is the game hospitality different within rugby league the union lads in my experience jut want to get ••••ed and to be honest most of them then become a pain in the arse.
    No difference between Leauge & R U players who are proffesionals, amatuers enjoy the social side in both codes.

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    [QUOTE=Buddy;581500]You could argue that those players returned from a full time sport into one that had just gone pro and that's why they stood out.

    Union was always shamateur rather than amateur

    There were a lot of Union players who simply couldn't afford to drop their amateur earnings and come North

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    Used to be called 'boot money'.

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    [QUOTE=headtackle;581622]
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    You could argue that those players returned from a full time sport into one that had just gone pro and that's why they stood out.

    Union was always shamateur rather than amateur

    There were a lot of Union players who simply couldn't afford to drop their amateur earnings and come North
    Do you have any proof of this?

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    [QUOTE=Buddy;581626]
    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post

    Do you have any proof of this?
    The RFU themselves admit it on their website http://www.rfu.com/twickenhamstadium...ory/amateurera

    Union players earning more in expenses than RL professionals earned in wages, cosy paid jobs on club committees, boot money etc......
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    [QUOTE=headtackle;581622]
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    You could argue that those players returned from a full time sport into one that had just gone pro and that's why they stood out.

    Union was always shamateur rather than amateur

    There were a lot of Union players who simply couldn't afford to drop their amateur earnings and come North
    How do you know? Listening to some old wives tales i suppose?

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    [QUOTE=Sausalito;581631]
    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post

    How do you know? Listening to some old wives tales i suppose?
    Read the article in the post above. Union was amateur in name only for a long time

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    [QUOTE=N0.1 Saint;581632]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sausalito View Post

    Read the article in the post above. Union was amateur in name only for a long time
    I lived in Coventry in the 1960s when that club was the best in England and I played with and against many County and International players, several of whom were ex-school mates. While no players were employed by Coventry, they did receive money for expenses to cover not only travelling costs but also purchase of meals and drinks. In reality, food and the evening's alchohol were provided by the home club funded from gate receipts. At that time, all kit was provided by the club whereas at many junior clubs players had to supply jerseys, shorts and socks themselves. In addition, by the late sixties, all of the players selected for England that I know received a parcel from Adidas containing boots, training gear and track suits. Most of the players stated that they couldn't afford to go back to their junior club because of these "payments" while rugby league was not a viable option as most would have had to leave well paid white collar jobs. Certainly, RU at the top level was a long way from amateur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sausalito View Post
    How do you know? Listening to some old wives tales i suppose?

    From the RFU website:
    Payment for expenses was often permitted, however. The ‘amateur’ 1908 Australian rugby union tourists to the British Isles received payment of 21 shillings a week.

    This was more than twice the amount that players on the following season's ‘professional’ Great Britain rugby league tour of Australia received as weekly wages!
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    to be fair a lot of the English Scottish and Irish Union players came from wealthy back grounds and had good jobs in the city or as doctors etc.

    Also being a top level union player was very handy when it came to getting jobs in things like sales reps or as pe teachers.

    The welsh union boys often came from poorer backgrounds and had lower paid jobs , many were in the coal or steel industries (well until the torys shut em down!) so they were easier to attract "up north." Certainly a lot more capped high profile players from wales came to play league rather than from England Ireland and scotland

    There have always been perks in union especially the higher up the game you go, (rumors Jonathan davies got the takings from the car park in order for him to stay at Llanelli rfc) and the French and all blacks were certainly paid well before the game went professional.

    But I would guess that the English RFU were one of the cleaner unions when it came to paying their players

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    There is no debate. Many Union players whilst banging on about playing for the love of the game and the evils of professionalism etc etc took cash or generous expenses

    All very hypocritical especially when not long ago you were banned from playing Union if you played League or trialled or from memory even played at true amateur level

    Think that was why a lot trialled as A N Others in an attempt to stay anonymous

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    There is no debate. Many Union players whilst banging on about playing for the love of the game and the evils of professionalism etc etc took cash or generous expenses

    All very hypocritical especially when not long ago you were banned from playing Union if you played League or trialled or from memory even played at true amateur level

    Think that was why a lot trialled as A N Others in an attempt to stay anonymous

    To be honest I don't think the players ever called out others on the evils of professionalism, they all knew the score.



    Rugby be it union or league is a tough sport to play and brutal on the body , if you choose to take the money then good luck to you.

    Especially when you look around a test crowd of 65,000 to 80,000 paying customers, your bound to want your share of that gate

    No denying Union players who took up league were treated terribly, not just banned from playing but banned from attending grounds/club houses of clubs they had served well for years.


    the case of steve ford (phil ford's brother) really highlighted that and as you say loads of players trialled as a n other (neil Jenkins,mark ring are just two who have admitted in their books)

    My only point would be the English rfu would be the most conservative and least likely union to have paid their players and trust me I'm no defender of English rugby union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    To be honest I don't think the players ever called out others on the evils of professionalism, they all knew the score.



    Rugby be it union or league is a tough sport to play and brutal on the body , if you choose to take the money then good luck to you.

    Especially when you look around a test crowd of 65,000 to 80,000 paying customers, your bound to want your share of that gate

    No denying Union players who took up league were treated terribly, not just banned from playing but banned from attending grounds/club houses of clubs they had served well for years.


    the case of steve ford (phil ford's brother) really highlighted that and as you say loads of players trialled as a n other (neil Jenkins,mark ring are just two who have admitted in their books)

    My only point would be the English rfu would be the most conservative and least likely union to have paid their players and trust me I'm no defender of English rugby union.
    That's interesting, I attended a Schwepps cup final at Cardiff Arns Park around 1992ish with Ex Union international Jonathan Griffiths. He wasn't banned from anywhere or anything, wasn't shunned by the union players or officials and made my day by introducing legends of the Welsh game like Derek Quinell to me. but still don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

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