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Thread: No excuses for lack of heart...

  1. #26
    Learning All The Songs jonimac's Avatar
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    Just read Saints v Wolves U 19's match report on Saints website. Hope Nathan's read it too.

  2. #27
    WARNING! PIE EATER!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonimac View Post
    Just read Saints v Wolves U 19's match report on Saints website. Hope Nathan's read it too.

    Why would he need to read it. He should have seen it (or had reports from his coaching staff) or watched the video. And if he didn't then he shouldn't be in the job. I was at Wigan and Leeds u19's (Leeds won 19 - 18) and both Brian McDermott and Shaun Wane were there.

  3. #28
    Learning All The Songs roy litherland's Avatar
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    Doing a great job there is Deryck Traynor , top bloke .
    Quote Originally Posted by jonimac View Post
    Just read Saints v Wolves U 19's match report on Saints website. Hope Nathan's read it too.
    roy litherland it's happened i told you it would

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    Oh hell no! Under Simmons we played some of the most boring and inept rugby I've seen at Saints. At least this year we've had a partial return to a more exciting brand. Granted there have been a handful of awful results and we still don't look anywhere near winning a 'big game' but the team now is in a much better shape than it was then. Still not good enough though.
    We may have been boring in 2011 but we had little choice given that we played the whole season with a pair of under 21s as our halfbacks and had a massive injury crisis for most of the season. I thought Simmons' approach was sensible: he maintained KISS when we had to rely on so many young players. So boring maybe, but inept ...?

    In 2011 our final league position was third. We won 17, drew 3 and lost 7. So far this season we have won 19, drawn none and lost 7. Our points difference in 2011 was 267. We had the third best attack at 782 points for and the third best defence at 515 points against. Wire blew the points for out of the water that year. This year we will finish either first or second and our points difference will be around 234 which is where we are at the moment. Our points for at 780 mean we are the third best attack and our points against at 546 makes us the fifth best defence (behind Hull FC believe it or not). We may turn it all around in our final game but somehow I doubt it! Either way, the results from 2011 don't suggest a team playing inept rugby, just rugby suited to the limited resources available and an ever changing playing roster.

  5. #30
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Buddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    We may have been boring in 2011 but we had little choice given that we played the whole season with a pair of under 21s as our halfbacks and had a massive injury crisis for most of the season. I thought Simmons' approach was sensible: he maintained KISS when we had to rely on so many young players. So boring maybe, but inept ...?

    In 2011 our final league position was third. We won 17, drew 3 and lost 7. So far this season we have won 19, drawn none and lost 7. Our points difference in 2011 was 267. We had the third best attack at 782 points for and the third best defence at 515 points against. Wire blew the points for out of the water that year. This year we will finish either first or second and our points difference will be around 234 which is where we are at the moment. Our points for at 780 mean we are the third best attack and our points against at 546 makes us the fifth best defence (behind Hull FC believe it or not). We may turn it all around in our final game but somehow I doubt it! Either way, the results from 2011 don't suggest a team playing inept rugby, just rugby suited to the limited resources available and an ever changing playing roster.
    Inept?

    Absolutely. Royce was a very poor choice as coach, just like his predecessor. If we are going to change coach (which I don't believe we are) then hopefully we get someone who is passionate about his role and understands the club.


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  6. #31
    Got A Season Ticket NewJerseySaint's Avatar
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    Usual garbage beIng written on here. The root cause of our alleged issues is the comp itself. All we have to do is finish in the top two to have the best chance in the play offs..... We've done that so judge after we win the grand final!

  7. #32
    In The South Stand 49er's Avatar
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    There are many valid points here, but in truth is its a mixture of everything that makes a team good. Passion, skill organisation, desire etc all help and we all equally moan about these when they appear to be missing on game day. But the ' human ' factor is the main reason teams gel or not. It might affect only half the team or just one player on any given day, but it's the ' human ' factor that makes sport and life interesting. What is the ' human ' factor? If we knew we would bottle and sell it. If the best team on paper won everything every game would we really truly turn up and watch? I certainly would not. What makes things exciting is the ' human ' or ' unknown' factors that make sport. But fans, including me try and label the reason we lost, and try to blame someone.
    My first post... So be kind
    Humans are more concerned with having than being.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    What says everything is that when we do get beat, we get murdered. Apart from a narrow defeat against a poor Hull FC side that hadn't won for eight weeks, every time we have lost we have thrown in the towel when the going got tough, and as a result ended up getting detsroyed.

    How right you are Lygase. I've seen worse teams than this and been ok with it, because you can only play to the best of your ability. What gets me is that this team is good enough to win away to Wigan, Warrington, Leeds, Huddersfield and Castleford but can also simply give up on a game if they aren't having it all their own way with a bag to put it in.

    I remember Alex Murphy once saying after a Challenge Cup win against Widnes that nobody expected "that's what no-hopers get, keep trying and you never know". It seems to be beyond the mentality of our players to 'keep trying'. They simply give up. It's inexcusable and something that I cannot get my head around.
    This hits the nail on the head for me. Its the lack of mental toughness, the soft centre that we seem to have acquired that makes us give up when the going gets tough. When teams get into our face our forwards don't like it at all and we are going backwards because our team doesn't seem to like the physicality one little bit. My gut feeling is that the problem lies with the way the team is prepared. Our pack is big, and on occasion its been really effective but the inconsistency seems to point at players doing the business when they feel like it. Players get automatically picked regardless of how badly they perform so it doesn't matter if they play well or play appallingly, because they still get picked. We have had some really big hidings this season, not just defeats but real hammerings. The lack of determination and grit does the club a disservice.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Absolutely. Royce was a very poor choice as coach, just like his predecessor. If we are going to change coach (which I don't believe we are) then hopefully we get someone who is passionate about his role and understands the club.
    I'm not going to argue with you about the qualities of Simmons as a coach - we got to a Grand Final under him and finished third which is hardly failure - but one thing that you are very wrong about is his passion and understanding.

  10. #35
    Starting A Programme Collection Lygase's Avatar
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    We just lack any sort of consistency... I can honestly say, hand on heart I have no clue what team is going to turn up.

    Let's compare...
    - Wellens... Mr dependable, mr St. Helens - nowhere on Thursday
    - roby... Allegedly the best no.9 in the comp... Which comp?
    - Mose... Look how he played against wigan compared to most of the season
    - makinson.. Normally a sure safe bet against any high ball... Dropped a sitter

    I could go on... Considering we've pretty much played with the same 17 for a good few games how can we be sooooo hit and miss? There must be something going on (or not going on) with regards to the coaching staff, it's been mentioned Simmons got sacked for less so what makes brown any different? Kieron Cunningham has played under every successful and unsuccessful coach since super league began... I can't accept he has willingly let this team turn into what we saw on Thursday... As I say, it's not so much the losing, it's the fashion in which we do it

    The only way we get real passion is from a former player, I remember watching joynt on super league supermen saying when Royce got sacked he offered himself to McManus by way of a voice message from a missed phone all, McManus he never even phoned him back, for me it should be Cunningham as head honcho, with Someone with some experience as his no.2

  11. #36
    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lygase View Post
    for me it should be Cunningham as head honcho, with Someone with some experience as his no.2
    For me, Cunningham doesnt look interested either.

  12. #37
    Starting A Programme Collection Lygase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    For me, Cunningham doesnt look interested either.
    oh your right... No doubt, but I wonder if he is being stifled by Brown, I wonder if he has much say at all... As I said I can't seeing him willingly letting this current crop of players underperform to the extent we saw on Thursday

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lygase View Post
    I'm in the 'I'm not bothered when we lose as long as we played well' camp most of the time...

    But last night highlighted something that seems rife in this team of late, lack of heart, pride, spirit, one or all of the above, Nathan Brown seems intent in sticking with the main string of players (we know who they are) who will be guaranteed a game no matter how they play... Which is wrong, Brown needs to strike fear into this current crop that if you don't play well, you don't play at all. There are much better lads warming the seats in the stand than are playing at times, there is no passion or drive to succeed as they'll get paid and be back out on the park next week.
    I'm not too sure where we go from here, there is a raft of deadwood players and a sort of untouchable mentality within some players, brown is fast running out of excuses, ok we have injuries, but that does not excuse a total lack of heart from those playing, if brown can't get them players fired up for a home tie against big rivals with a promise of our first bit of silverware in years to be presented to them in front of a home crowd of loyal supporters, then he need shipping off and someone with the attitude of Shaun Wane, as much I hate I him. I'd love a coach with half the passion and drive the has, not to mention the fear of getting bollocked he exudes...

    We need to find our heart and our passion quick sharp, if we lose I don't mind as much if we give a good account of ourselves, last night was an emabarassment, and someone needs to sort it out, who though... I'm not sure
    I honestly think we're missing some leadership on the field and I do think brown needs to be more ruthless. Over the lump if a player played with as little spirit as some of ours have done on occasions this year they would be dropped and if there wasn't a senior player replaced with a young lad. Heart , passion and effort should be givens for anyone pulling on the redvee regardless of playing ability.

  14. #39
    In The South Stand N0.1 Saint's Avatar
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    Default No excuses for lack of heart...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lygase View Post
    oh your right... No doubt, but I wonder if he is being stifled by Brown, I wonder if he has much say at all... As I said I can't seeing him willingly letting this current crop of players underperform to the extent we saw on Thursday
    From what I hear he has plenty influence as you'd expect from an assistant coach and club legend. If that's positive or negative is another matter and is probably subjective.

    I would say that anyone who suggests he isn't interested should go to a fans forum when he next does one, he is a Saint through and through and cares about the club.

  15. #40
    In The South Stand The.Reverand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N0.1 Saint View Post
    F

    I would say that anyone who suggests he isn't interested should go to a fans forum when he next does one, he is a Saint through and through and cares about the club.
    To be fair I said he doesnt "look" interested. Im all for a bit of passion, both on the field and on the sidelines.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    To be fair I said he doesnt "look" interested. Im all for a bit of passion, both on the field and on the sidelines.
    Fair point, I must admit I do quite like seeing a coach get emotional like Millward used too, he lived the game at times play by play

  17. #42
    Learning All The Songs roy litherland's Avatar
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    Keiron's heart is with the club without a shadow of a doubt , maybe Lygase's quote is as close to the problem as you may think , perhaps they both have completely differing views on the way we should play .
    Quote Originally Posted by N0.1 Saint View Post
    From what I hear he has plenty influence as you'd expect from an assistant coach and club legend. If that's positive or negative is another matter and is probably subjective.

    I would say that anyone who suggests he isn't interested should go to a fans forum when he next does one, he is a Saint through and through and cares about the club.
    roy litherland it's happened i told you it would

  18. #43
    Learning All The Songs roy litherland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lygase View Post
    oh your right... No doubt, but I wonder if he is being stifled by Brown, I wonder if he has much say at all... As I said I can't seeing him willingly letting this current crop of players underperform to the extent we saw on Thursday
    Very good point that Lygase .
    roy litherland it's happened i told you it would

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