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Thread: Bye bye London

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    In recent years what positive media coverage have we had from having our top level representation in London ? - not a lot from what I can see

    We get much more media interest by taking odd games ie world cup etc to Wembley than having a club down there that gets battered regularly and has no fans

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    Thank goodness the painful demise of London is over. The propping up of this doomed outfit over the last few years has given little benefit ...
    They've only been relegated (not for the first time). They now have a chance to find their true level and perhaps build on that. I don't know what the long term deal is with Barnet, but they can stay in one suitable place for long enough, it wont do them any harm.

    It's difficult to measure what benefits they brought to the game, but I believe that these are much bigger than many on here give credit for, and a top flight team in the capital and outside the heartlands was a catalyst for the sports national development.
    We can only guess where we would be if 'London' hadn't happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    In recent years what positive media coverage have we had from having our top level representation in London ? - not a lot from what I can see

    We get much more media interest by taking odd games ie world cup etc to Wembley than having a club down there that gets battered regularly and has no fans
    I wasn't referring to the current situation, more about the importance of having a competative team in London/SE. I agree that the games at Wembley need to continue to showcase RL to the south, proven beyond doubt by the WC. It would just be much more beneficial if those potential supporters had somewhere to turn to in the top division after the interest was sparked.

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    Default Bye bye London

    Quote Originally Posted by WindsorSaint View Post
    They can still claim to have a healthy competition outside of the south with the likes of Bath, Glocester, Worcester & Exeter in the west and Leicester & Northampton in the midlands along with all the SE/London based teams. And lets not forget where the national press are all based so we'll always have that battle to deal with without top level represetation in the SE/London!!
    And our competition is less healthy without 4 blokes watching London?

    Union has as many problems as we have, their league competition is basically two or three well run & well supported clubs and others funded by sugar daddies. What union does well is make people like you believe the myth that the game is booming.

    League needs to get it's grass roots on order before prostituting itself in areas where there is no interest until our game, if we have packed stadia then we can look at expansion

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    In recent years what positive media coverage have we had from having our top level representation in London ? - not a lot from what I can see
    We will now find out.

    It is likely that BBC Radio London coverage will cease without a top flight club. If you listen to local radio here, they are only interested in covering Superleague games, with maybe a passing mention to Championship results sometimes. Take Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Salford and Widnes out of the Superleague and my guess is coverage of rugby league around here would be non-existent.

    They also had regular coverage in the free paper around London. I doubt that will now happen with the Broncos being relegated.

    We are spoiled in the north west because we have lots of top flight RL teams within the area although even so we hardly get a mention on Look North West and only the Superleague matches are covered by local radio. Without those top flight teams we wouldn't get any coverage at all.

    It's all well and good dismissing the Broncos because they have been struggling for a few years but the consequences of their relegation could have a profound impact on the sport as a whole, not least for participation figures (and subsequent Sport England money), awareness within London itself and the future player pool. Just look at how Mason Caton-Brown has performed at Salford - he could be a possible England centre if he continues to develop - to see an example of how real talent is now emerging from the south. It was always going to take time to come through - 30 years is only one generation and we have had far more than that to develop the game up north. We struggle enough as it is to find good quality players from northern clubs, surely we are cutting our noses off to spite our face by wishing the demise of the Broncos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WindsorSaint View Post
    I wasn't referring to the current situation, more about the importance of having a competative team in London/SE. I agree that the games at Wembley need to continue to showcase RL to the south, proven beyond doubt by the WC. It would just be much more beneficial if those potential supporters had somewhere to turn to in the top division after the interest was sparked.
    My guess would be that London has a lot of sports fans. These fans will have their prime loyalties, probably to one of teh football clubs but after that could be tempted to one off, major events.

    That is why large scale events ie world cup semi double headers, NFL rounds etc are easy to promote - they catch the imagination.

    Unfortunately for London they have become the whipping boys and their crowds have dwindled to a level at which there is no atmosphere at all. That is not going to attract the punters.

    Personally if I was the RFL I would have regionalised the lower championship league to Div 2 North and Div 2 South. The Southern league could then have regular derby fixtures between the likes of Oxford, London, Skolars, Gloucester etc with end of season play offs against the North + hopefully a good challenge cup tie

    London has been a long drawn out failure which hasnt done the game much good. For older members they did give s one great memory though when as Fulham they beat Wigan in one of their very early memories. Packed ground at Craven Cottage and from memory shown on BBC - where did it all go wrong

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    For anyone actually interested in the Broncos, Ian Ramsdale's weekly Rugby League Down South podcast this week includes interviews with the Broncos' General Manager and their new assistant coach Andrew Henderson along with the rugby league guy from BBC Radio London. They discuss plans for and impact of relegation, etc (the interviews took place just before the Broncos match against Warrington).

    I think the best interview though is the final one (comes at around 48:00 mins) with the kitman Steve Magee who has been at the club since its inception. It's quite a poignant interview really and shows just how much of an impact the club has had down there even though people seem to think that it's been a failure (and in playing terms, in recent years, it has - but there is clearly more to it than that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    For anyone actually interested in the Broncos, Ian Ramsdale's weekly Rugby League Down South podcast this week includes interviews with the Broncos' General Manager and their new assistant coach Andrew Henderson along with the rugby league guy from BBC Radio London. They discuss plans for and impact of relegation, etc (the interviews took place just before the Broncos match against Warrington).

    I think the best interview though is the final one (comes at around 48:00 mins) with the kitman Steve Magee who has been at the club since its inception. It's quite a poignant interview really and shows just how much of an impact the club has had down there even though people seem to think that it's been a failure (and in playing terms, in recent years, it has - but there is clearly more to it than that).
    So a kit man and 1002 spectators........

    How many people live in the greater London area? Is it about 8 million?

    The whole concept has been a joke for decades, if they can't succeed after this long of trying they never will. It has been a misinformed, mismanaged very expensive mistake


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    So a kit man and 1002 spectators........

    How many people live in the greater London area? Is it about 8 million?

    The whole concept has been a joke for decades, if they can't succeed after this long of trying they never will. It has been a misinformed, mismanaged very expensive mistake
    Clearly you haven't listened to the podcast then.

    1984. Hardly a long time. A generation is 25 years. How many generations have Saints had? Yet they can only sell out for a game against Wigan.

    The fact that London is 8 million strong is a problem, not an advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    Clearly you haven't listened to the podcast then.

    1984. Hardly a long time. A generation is 25 years. How many generations have Saints had? Yet they can only sell out for a game against Wigan.

    The fact that London is 8 million strong is a problem, not an advantage.
    So 30 years is not enough time to say if something is going to work or not??

    How old is your car?????

    And you're absolutely correct about Saints which is why we should abandon stupid attempts to expand the game until a time when it happens naturally.

    You can't grow grass in the air and that's exactly what the RFL have been trying to do

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    London started life as Fulham in 1980 to be correct.

    Nobody is cutting them adrift. They need to build their infastructure.

    Everyone crows about their junior development- the recent RFL document on Academies and their grading suggests they are still way behind where they need to be.

    There is a a way back, they can grow and return when they are up to it.

    I think that is all most of us have wanted for sometime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    Clearly you haven't listened to the podcast then.

    1984. Hardly a long time. A generation is 25 years. How many generations have Saints had? Yet they can only sell out for a game against Wigan.

    The fact that London is 8 million strong is a problem, not an advantage.

    How long have Brisbane Broncos, North Queensland and Melbourne Storm had?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    How long have Brisbane Broncos, North Queensland and Melbourne Storm had?
    No idea about either but I do know that Storm had central funding for many years and actually had a team in place. London Broncos started with a team based in Widnes travelling down to Fulham to play. Could you imgaine the uproar on sites like this if London Broncos had been centrally funded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    London started life as Fulham in 1980 to be correct.
    Well, Widnes really. I've listened to Steve Magee!

    Nobody is cutting them adrift. They need to build their infastructure.

    Everyone crows about their junior development- the recent RFL document on Academies and their grading suggests they are still way behind where they need to be.

    There is a a way back, they can grow and return when they are up to it.

    I think that is all most of us have wanted for sometime.
    The praise for their academy squad is plain to see in that they have produced first team players from it. That they don't have the right structures, support and educational opportunities in place doesn't really take an assessment to establish does it? They didn't even know whether they were going to continue at the end of 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    London started life as Fulham in 1980 to be correct.

    Nobody is cutting them adrift. They need to build their infastructure.

    Everyone crows about their junior development- the recent RFL document on Academies and their grading suggests they are still way behind where they need to be.

    There is a a way back, they can grow and return when they are up to it.

    I think that is all most of us have wanted for sometime.
    London Broncos are falling naturally into the lower tier because they have failed to build that infrastructure despite significant support from various benefactors or organisations. As I said before there were various promises about the benefits of a London team - all's that remains now is the argment about 'junior development' which both ignores the trend that most sports have improved in this area and as you say, the RFL document. Pause at this moment to reflect on why clubs like Oldham are'nt producing the Martyn's and Sculthorpe's anymore - anything to do with the fact that those areas have been left desolate by successive failures of the RFL to understand their needs at the expense of 'franchise' growth?

    There's a million excuses for the Bronco's but the simple fact is they are a spectacular flop - 30 years of almost total failure including the desperate rebrand to 'Harlequins.' Until then, the Broncos had a pluckiness in their identiy that was evaporated the moment they entered into that stupiud venture, but then again, that was a sign of the dire straits they were in.

    The Skolars present a much more realistic proposition about how the game can sustain itself and steadily grow in the capital without humiliating itself or adversely distorting the games strategic vision by chasing pipedreams. The Broncos are almost dead and buried and their apologists will still find reasons to blame everybody else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    The Broncos are almost dead and buried and their apologists will still find reasons to blame everybody else.
    The Broncos are almost dead and buried but they are absolutely no different from the likes of Bradford, Wakefield and Oldham as you mentioned in the same post. The underlying fact is that every single one of those clubs and more before them have been incredibly badly managed hence their failure.

    However, the loss of the Broncos has been greeted with much jubilation in some quarters, which is frankly pathetic in my opinion. London are treated with disdain my certain elements within our game because they are relative newcomers and are located outside of the RL bubble along the M62. However, the likes of Bradford and Wakefield are even bigger failures as after a 100 years, infrastructure and access to the wider RL community, they have still failed catastrophically. They've had far more support and goodwill than the Broncos have ever had but are not treated with anywhere near as much disdain as the Broncos.

    I am going to deny the Broncos deserve to be relegated as they certainly do and they are a complete shadow of what was a good little RL club in the capital. However, we only have ourselves as a game to blame for the travesty that has unfolded, the vast majority, which lies at the feet of the RFL. We bitch and whine that RL doesn't get the exposure both in terms of media or commercial profile compared to other sports but it is the insular attitude of the sport, which has caused this when the rest of the country and world have changed. We are seen as the paupers of the UK sporting community and it is no surprise our biggest stars are leaving for pastures new in Australia or RU. It is no surprise that real money and commercial interest other than SKY are not interested in the UK game. What we think is our strongest asset is our biggest handicap and will continue to be so until we get serious about developing ourselves properly.

    This brings me back to the Broncos. We think giving them SKY money each and telling a 'benefactor' to crack on and break the market is how it should be achieved. I'd state that is fundamentally the wrong approach, especially in the size of a city like London. Therefore I'd state that the RFL's business model is fundamentally flawed and has resulted in the failure at the Broncos but also at Bradford and Wakefield, even at Halifax, Castleford and Featherstone where the Probiz bloke promised and failed to deliver on at 3 different clubs. How can we let that happen? It is a catastrophe of epic proportions and the game is significantly weaker.

    I'd agree that Skolars are a far more organic development opportunity but even they aren't being supported as they should be. We'd rather reinforce failure through an insular attitude that the game can only survive in the heartlands. This is where I think we disagree (other than it isn't just the a Broncos' fault). London is a special case. It needs to be given special treatment as it is strategically the most important city in the UK. Without a successful RL club in London, we'll continue to be the paupers of the UK sporting community and continue to lose our stars to Australia and RU. I am not suggesting we reinforce failure at the Broncos who I hope continue past this season but we must invest in the game in the capital in order to build a successful professional side in SL. It is fundamentally vital for the sport in this country to do so as the world has changed and we need to adapt with it.

    I am sure people will slate me for this post but having lived, played, developed and supported the game outside of the M62 corridor for years now, I can see the game gradually contracting in both terms of quality, size and exposure not because we have wasted money in London but because we as a sport aren't changing as the rest of the UK are and it is having a detrimental effect. If we want to continue as a local sport for local people which is of a sub-standard of what it used to be, we are going down the right path. There needs to be a fundamental shift in the game's attitude to development both in traditional areas but outside of those areas too; we need to break this insular attitude that is prevalent within the game.

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    Breaking the insular attitude is easier said than done. Where is the evidence of a potential larger market outside of the heartlands?

    Can Rugby League expand any more that it already has? Is there an appetite for it nationally? I don't know the answers to these questions and I certainly won't be spending time researching them as to me it's a small, predominantly Northern game and we should just concentrate on making the clubs we do have as successfull as possible both commercially and on the playing side also

    If we do that, success will attract investment from outside the game. Imagine a day when all the teams in SL played in packed-out, state of the art stadiums. Every team had some marketable superstars, you'd see as many RL tops as football ones if you went into a city centre. You can expand from a position like that but you can't expand from a static, suppressed market

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    Quote Originally Posted by geordie_saint View Post
    The Broncos are almost dead and buried but they are absolutely no different from the likes of Bradford, Wakefield and Oldham as you mentioned in the same post. The underlying fact is that every single one of those clubs and more before them have been incredibly badly managed hence their failure.

    However, the loss of the Broncos has been greeted with much jubilation in some quarters, which is frankly pathetic in my opinion. London are treated with disdain my certain elements within our game because they are relative newcomers and are located outside of the RL bubble along the M62. However, the likes of Bradford and Wakefield are even bigger failures as after a 100 years, infrastructure and access to the wider RL community, they have still failed catastrophically. They've had far more support and goodwill than the Broncos have ever had but are not treated with anywhere near as much disdain as the Broncos.

    I am going to deny the Broncos deserve to be relegated as they certainly do and they are a complete shadow of what was a good little RL club in the capital. However, we only have ourselves as a game to blame for the travesty that has unfolded, the vast majority, which lies at the feet of the RFL. We bitch and whine that RL doesn't get the exposure both in terms of media or commercial profile compared to other sports but it is the insular attitude of the sport, which has caused this when the rest of the country and world have changed. We are seen as the paupers of the UK sporting community and it is no surprise our biggest stars are leaving for pastures new in Australia or RU. It is no surprise that real money and commercial interest other than SKY are not interested in the UK game. What we think is our strongest asset is our biggest handicap and will continue to be so until we get serious about developing ourselves properly.

    This brings me back to the Broncos. We think giving them SKY money each and telling a 'benefactor' to crack on and break the market is how it should be achieved. I'd state that is fundamentally the wrong approach, especially in the size of a city like London. Therefore I'd state that the RFL's business model is fundamentally flawed and has resulted in the failure at the Broncos but also at Bradford and Wakefield, even at Halifax, Castleford and Featherstone where the Probiz bloke promised and failed to deliver on at 3 different clubs. How can we let that happen? It is a catastrophe of epic proportions and the game is significantly weaker.

    I'd agree that Skolars are a far more organic development opportunity but even they aren't being supported as they should be. We'd rather reinforce failure through an insular attitude that the game can only survive in the heartlands. This is where I think we disagree (other than it isn't just the a Broncos' fault). London is a special case. It needs to be given special treatment as it is strategically the most important city in the UK. Without a successful RL club in London, we'll continue to be the paupers of the UK sporting community and continue to lose our stars to Australia and RU. I am not suggesting we reinforce failure at the Broncos who I hope continue past this season but we must invest in the game in the capital in order to build a successful professional side in SL. It is fundamentally vital for the sport in this country to do so as the world has changed and we need to adapt with it.

    I am sure people will slate me for this post but having lived, played, developed and supported the game outside of the M62 corridor for years now, I can see the game gradually contracting in both terms of quality, size and exposure not because we have wasted money in London but because we as a sport aren't changing as the rest of the UK are and it is having a detrimental effect. If we want to continue as a local sport for local people which is of a sub-standard of what it used to be, we are going down the right path. There needs to be a fundamental shift in the game's attitude to development both in traditional areas but outside of those areas too; we need to break this insular attitude that is prevalent within the game.
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Breaking the insular attitude is easier said than done. Where is the evidence of a potential larger market outside of the heartlands?
    A market for what? Watching or playing or both? For watching then there is clearly a market because TV audiences have risen 20% this season and attendances at our internationals, particularly the one at Wembley, saw an increase of 20,000 attend over and above the 2011 international double header. However, whether the increase in TV audience can be translated into bums on seats is IMO partly down to RFL policy (policy? what policy?) and partly down to individual clubs working harder within their localities.

    As for playing the sport, it has already expanded. At present I'm sending #TetleysPassItOn support on Twitter for the Cornish Rebels. They just recently beat the Devon Sharks. Medway Dragons, in Kent, are once again holding the wheelchair rugby league Four Nations at their club, which has multiple teams at every age level including open age, a wheelchair team and a women's team. And that's just three amateur clubs off the top of my head which are quite a distance from the M62 corridor.

    You need also to remember that if we don't expand participation in the game we don't get Sport England money and that will impact on heartlands clubs as well as expansion clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geordie_saint View Post
    The Broncos are almost dead and buried but they are absolutely no different from the likes of Bradford, Wakefield and Oldham as you mentioned in the same post. The underlying fact is that every single one of those clubs and more before them have been incredibly badly managed hence their failure.

    However, the loss of the Broncos has been greeted with much jubilation in some quarters, which is frankly pathetic in my opinion. London are treated with disdain my certain elements within our game because they are relative newcomers and are located outside of the RL bubble along the M62. However, the likes of Bradford and Wakefield are even bigger failures as after a 100 years, infrastructure and access to the wider RL community, they have still failed catastrophically. They've had far more support and goodwill than the Broncos have ever had but are not treated with anywhere near as much disdain as the Broncos.

    I am going to deny the Broncos deserve to be relegated as they certainly do and they are a complete shadow of what was a good little RL club in the capital. However, we only have ourselves as a game to blame for the travesty that has unfolded, the vast majority, which lies at the feet of the RFL. We bitch and whine that RL doesn't get the exposure both in terms of media or commercial profile compared to other sports but it is the insular attitude of the sport, which has caused this when the rest of the country and world have changed. We are seen as the paupers of the UK sporting community and it is no surprise our biggest stars are leaving for pastures new in Australia or RU. It is no surprise that real money and commercial interest other than SKY are not interested in the UK game. What we think is our strongest asset is our biggest handicap and will continue to be so until we get serious about developing ourselves properly.

    This brings me back to the Broncos. We think giving them SKY money each and telling a 'benefactor' to crack on and break the market is how it should be achieved. I'd state that is fundamentally the wrong approach, especially in the size of a city like London. Therefore I'd state that the RFL's business model is fundamentally flawed and has resulted in the failure at the Broncos but also at Bradford and Wakefield, even at Halifax, Castleford and Featherstone where the Probiz bloke promised and failed to deliver on at 3 different clubs. How can we let that happen? It is a catastrophe of epic proportions and the game is significantly weaker.

    I'd agree that Skolars are a far more organic development opportunity but even they aren't being supported as they should be. We'd rather reinforce failure through an insular attitude that the game can only survive in the heartlands. This is where I think we disagree (other than it isn't just the a Broncos' fault). London is a special case. It needs to be given special treatment as it is strategically the most important city in the UK. Without a successful RL club in London, we'll continue to be the paupers of the UK sporting community and continue to lose our stars to Australia and RU. I am not suggesting we reinforce failure at the Broncos who I hope continue past this season but we must invest in the game in the capital in order to build a successful professional side in SL. It is fundamentally vital for the sport in this country to do so as the world has changed and we need to adapt with it.

    I am sure people will slate me for this post but having lived, played, developed and supported the game outside of the M62 corridor for years now, I can see the game gradually contracting in both terms of quality, size and exposure not because we have wasted money in London but because we as a sport aren't changing as the rest of the UK are and it is having a detrimental effect. If we want to continue as a local sport for local people which is of a sub-standard of what it used to be, we are going down the right path. There needs to be a fundamental shift in the game's attitude to development both in traditional areas but outside of those areas too; we need to break this insular attitude that is prevalent within the game.
    The reason significant numbers of people remain unempathetic to the Bronco's decline is because many who wanted to gamble everything on London were myopic and ignorant to the rightful concerns of those of us who saw the family silver at risk of being eroded by chasing an unrelaistic dream, especially when the sport was/is unprepared for this challenge.

    You claim "we think giving them SKY money each and telling a 'benefactor' to crack on and break the market is how it should be achieved." I and many others raised justifiable reasons why this was never going to work yet supporters of the Broncos and 'xpanshun' cried out against our negativity crudely blaming this on regional bias.

    The real reasons I saw London as a plane crash waiting to happen were that I wouldnt trust the RFL to grow a carrot and London is far, far too tougher market for small minds at the RFL to crack. There was also the issue of the accountability problems at the RFL which means that there failure repeats itself because noone ever appears to be held to account for it. Again the point is illustrated by the things you raise in respects of Cas, Halifax, Bradford etc.... Framing the future, Licencing? What lessons are ever taken on board? How can this still happen after the disgraceful Celtic Crusaders episode (and before that, going further back, Oldham Bears). But then again London once had the might of Virign and they still ••••ed up. What gives?

    You're correct that the game is contracting to a pale imitation of what it was and I agree that this is due to the strategic failure of the RFL to deliver a sensible method to expand the game and govern its backyard. But let's not forget the idiots who wanted to mortgage a great deal on London, ignored the pitfalls of such a venture and stubbornly refused to see the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wide 2 west View Post
    Come back soon, you must be joking. Games against London are boring. They never bring any away support therefore there is no atmosphere. Although playing away was a good excuse for a weekend in London now it's to far out. Super League have wasted enough money on them. So No lets not see them back soon

    Lets not see Rugby League expand and go national then so it will get further funding/sponsorship.....you numpty

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    Default Bye bye London

    Quote Originally Posted by saint8520 View Post
    Lets not see Rugby League expand and go national then so it will get further funding/sponsorship.....you numpty
    What has happened in London, Paris & Wales has been the worst examples of expansion in the history of sport.

    You can't develop something where there is no market for it. You can't just air drop a top flight team somewhere and expect it to succeed.

    If we are going to grow it has to be done from a strong core, and we don't have that right now, when the game is working where it is supported then teams from other areas will WANT a team as opposed to having one forced on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    What has happened in London, Paris & Wales has been the worst examples of expansion in the history of sport.

    You can't develop something where there is no market for it. You can't just air drop a top flight team somewhere and expect it to succeed.

    If we are going to grow it has to be done from a strong core, and we don't have that right now, when the game is working where it is supported then teams from other areas will WANT a team as opposed to having one forced on them.
    My thoughts exactly. The one expansion area that has worked is Perpignan where there was already a market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    My thoughts exactly. The one expansion area that has worked is Perpignan where there was already a market.
    Perpignan wasn't an expansion area. RL has been played there almost as long as it has been played in England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    What has happened in London, Paris & Wales has been the worst examples of expansion in the history of sport.

    You can't develop something where there is no market for it. You can't just air drop a top flight team somewhere and expect it to succeed...
    Both areas now have teams and a structure of some sort left in the 'foot print' of their former SL sides.
    We can still claim to be a national sport at pro or semi pro level.
    I would question (again), what would have happened to the sport if it hadn't gone down the expansion route?
    Would a SL in say Halifax been of any greater value, apart from providing a few hundred travelling fans, to the sport as a whole? No disrespect to Fax intended here!

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