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Thread: Bye bye London

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Both areas now have teams and a structure of some sort left in the 'foot print' of their former SL sides.
    We can still claim to be a national sport at pro or semi pro level.
    I would question (again), what would have happened to the sport if it hadn't gone down the expansion route?
    Would a SL in say Halifax been of any greater value, apart from providing a few hundred travelling fans, to the sport as a whole? No disrespect to Fax intended here!
    And if it had been done the other way round the "footprint" you mention would be identical in size at a fraction of the cost.

    Expansion in this way is a farce and the RFL have wasted millions to get nothing.

    Forget academies think fans and let's be honest there are none

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    And if it had been done the other way round the "footprint" you mention would be identical in size at a fraction of the cost...
    This is the bit we can only guess at.

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    Default Bye bye London

    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    This is the bit we can only guess at.
    Really?

    Do you think a team established in the lower leagues with links to the community over 30 years, would only get 1000 supporters for a super league match?


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    Last edited by Buddy; 18th July 2014 at 11:48.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Would a SL in say Halifax been of any greater value, apart from providing a few hundred travelling fans, to the sport as a whole? No disrespect to Fax intended here!
    Halifax used to bring a sizable travelling support to KR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Halifax used to bring a sizable travelling support to KR.
    It kind of helps that they don't have to travel 200 miles. I doubt Saints would take much of a travelling support if they had to travel 200 miles every other week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Really?

    Do you think a team established in the lower leagues with links to the community over 30 years, would only get 1000 supporters for a super league match?

    k

    No is the answer.

    If Leigh, Featherstone, Oldham, Halifax or Keighley or several others had received the forbearance and support that the London club have enjoyed they would all be getting acceptable crowds ( probably way above Salford's) and would have produced many , many more players

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    No is the answer.

    If Leigh, Featherstone, Oldham, Halifax or Keighley or several others had received the forbearance and support that the London club have enjoyed they would all be getting acceptable crowds ( probably way above Salford's) and would have produced many , many more players
    Interesting you should say that.

    I've just read an article in Rugby League World, which is celebrating 400 editions this month. The first edition was published in 1976. The point of the article was spotting the similarities in content between then and now. One similarity was the crowd attending a Featherstone match, which was 1000 back in 1976. That was before London Broncos, before Superleague, before licensing, before 24 hour television, before social media, before a massively competitive sports environment developed.

    Interesting that also other similarities were the lack of marketing and profile the sport had back then (same goes for now) and how TV was taking over (same now but massively more so).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    Interesting you should say that.

    I've just read an article in Rugby League World, which is celebrating 400 editions this month. The first edition was published in 1976. The point of the article was spotting the similarities in content between then and now. One similarity was the crowd attending a Featherstone match, which was 1000 back in 1976. That was before London Broncos, before Superleague, before licensing, before 24 hour television, before social media, before a massively competitive sports environment developed.

    Interesting that also other similarities were the lack of marketing and profile the sport had back then (same goes for now) and how TV was taking over (same now but massively more so).
    I started to watch Saints circa 1975 and by the age of 11 in 1978 I was a regular home and away fan. The crowds were pretty dire at that point. To emphasise I remember that with all the blaze of publicity that Saints had with the capture of Mal Meninga the crowd for his debut against Castleford was IIRC around 6300. I have been to derby games against Wigan at KR with around 7000 on. The mid late 70's and early 80's were without doubt a low point for attendances after the boom of the post war period.

    That said we are in a better place now. As for London, despite the profile, TV money and guaranteed place in the top flight for a good number of years it just has not taken off.

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    Default Bye bye London

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    Interesting you should say that.

    I've just read an article in Rugby League World, which is celebrating 400 editions this month. The first edition was published in 1976. The point of the article was spotting the similarities in content between then and now. One similarity was the crowd attending a Featherstone match, which was 1000 back in 1976. That was before London Broncos, before Superleague, before licensing, before 24 hour television, before social media, before a massively competitive sports environment developed.

    Interesting that also other similarities were the lack of marketing and profile the sport had back then (same goes for now) and how TV was taking over (same now but massively more so).
    That's your most desperate attempt yet. What's next - attendances were really bad between 1914-1918? Instead of excuse after excuse look at facts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I started to watch Saints circa 1975 and by the age of 11 in 1978 I was a regular home and away fan. The crowds were pretty dire at that point. To emphasise I remember that with all the blaze of publicity that Saints had with the capture of Mal Meninga the crowd for his debut against Castleford was IIRC around 6300. I have been to derby games against Wigan at KR with around 7000 on. The mid late 70's and early 80's were without doubt a low point for attendances after the boom of the post war period.

    That said we are in a better place now. As for London, despite the profile, TV money and guaranteed place in the top flight for a good number of years it just has not taken off.
    Are we in a better place now ?
    We have numerous clubs in dire financial trouble today , yes gates are higher but clubs wage bills are through the roof now in comparison to the 70s and 80s !

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    Quote Originally Posted by french and conlon View Post
    Are we in a better place now ?
    We have numerous clubs in dire financial trouble today , yes gates are higher but clubs wage bills are through the roof now in comparison to the 70s and 80s !
    Let me qualify that I specifically meant attendances were in a better place. I dont think there is any doubting that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by french and conlon View Post
    Are we in a better place now ?
    We have numerous clubs in dire financial trouble today , yes gates are higher but clubs wage bills are through the roof now in comparison to the 70s and 80s !
    I'm sure the players think we are! I would say though Bradfords business model of razzmatazz, paying big contracts, letting people in for free and ignoring contractual agreements was always going to end in tears. We can't include their downfall in any discussion on the health of our sport. That would be like including Portsmouth when discussing premier league finances.

    The health of some other clubs is a worry but hopefully they seem to be managing themselves a little better in recent times.


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    In The South Stand KentishBarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Really?

    Do you think a team established in the lower leagues with links to the community over 30 years, would only get 1000 supporters for a super league match?
    I don't think anyone is doubting that a heartlands club couldn't generate more home and travelling fans. Clearly that would be a 'plus' for that local area, and a few more £££ for any club they visited.

    I'm questioning what the impact would have been if the London and Wales (and Gateshead if you like) SL thing hadn't happened.
    I believe that having a top flight side in an area is a catylist for further develpoment. The 'foot print' I mentioned.
    Would having Fax, for example, in SL instead of London, created the same network of clubs in the South East? Probably not.
    Would Fax in SL made any difference to the already existing network of clubs in Halifax? Maybe? Perhaps it would strenghthen them?
    Which network has a bigger value to the sport as a whole? An extra one, or an existing one? The point I'm trying to make is that we just don't know.

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    Default Bye bye London

    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    I don't think anyone is doubting that a heartlands club couldn't generate more home and travelling fans. Clearly that would be a 'plus' for that local area, and a few more £££ for any club they visited.

    I'm questioning what the impact would have been if the London and Wales (and Gateshead if you like) SL thing hadn't happened.
    I believe that having a top flight side in an area is a catylist for further develpoment. The 'foot print' I mentioned.
    Would having Fax, for example, in SL instead of London, created the same network of clubs in the South East? Probably not.
    Would Fax in SL made any difference to the already existing network of clubs in Halifax? Maybe? Perhaps it would strenghthen them?
    Which network has a bigger value to the sport as a whole? An extra one, or an existing one? The point I'm trying to make is that we just don't know.
    I'm sorry but I disagree, we do know. For a sporting team to be successful it needs ties to the community, that's hasn't happened because of the way the development has been done. No matter what you might think teams like Halifax have huge community ties, our very own club is one of very few things left to be proud of in St. Helens, but this wouldn't have happened if a team full of foreigners just appeared one day. Those teams came into the league with exemptions from relegation and from quota limits, they have wandered around the countryside eating money and pooing out owners with nothing more than the odd threat of achievement and we are no better off for their existence.


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    If the network of amateur and development clubs is that strong down there then Skolars and Hemel hould see the benefit.

    I have my doubts as to the strength of these leagues when in 30 years all that seems to have come through is LMS and the lad now at Salford.

    For any new club the key thing is to hit the ground running as sucess breeds success. A winning team will always attract the paying punter wheras a team getting hammered every week wont. In future if we have any more hair brained expansion schemes then perhaps in years 1 and 2 they should get extra support ie larger cap, marquee signings etc to give them a leg up. Cant see that going down well though.

    Happy to play odd games down there and quite enjoy extra trips to Wembley. Maybe the magic weekend could switch to Wembley.

    Interesting comparision with the NFL who I believe are looking to play up to 8 regular season games in London with the possibility of a full franchise. They have built steadily for a period of years rather than simply planting a team in an alien area outsde of their heartland.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    For a sporting team to be successful it needs ties to the community...
    ... they have wandered around the countryside ...
    I do agree with you on that, and it's one of the problems London made for itself by moving every few years.
    Charlton was staring to happen, then they moved to Brentford about 2 hour away!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    You're correct that the game is contracting to a pale imitation of what it was and I agree that this is due to the strategic failure of the RFL to deliver a sensible method to expand the game and govern its backyard. But let's not forget the idiots who wanted to mortgage a great deal on London, ignored the pitfalls of such a venture and stubbornly refused to see the facts.
    I think we are more or less in agreement but I put to you that there as many idiots who mortgage a great deal on propping up other clubs along the M62 when they are fundamentally not fit for purpose hence my comments about Bradford and Wakefield. We are actually failing on an even greater scale where the game is strongest despite throwing the vast majority of received monies at these clubs. That is why I get annoyed with people's reactions to the demise of the Broncos as it is happening at the traditional clubs despite having the infrastructure already in place.

    Therefore I think your comment about the strategic failure on behalf of the RFL to develop the game across the board is spot on and why I fundamentally disagree with the direction Wood et al and many of the SL Chairmen are now taking us. Retrenchment is NOT going to bring developments in the game which is going to retain its superstars and grow the game both commercially and exposure. The world has changed and we aren't changing with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    If the network of amateur and development clubs is that strong down there then Skolars and Hemel hould see the benefit.

    I have my doubts as to the strength of these leagues when in 30 years all that seems to have come through is LMS and the lad now at Salford.
    A few more than that have come through. Sarginson and Clubb at Wigan for example; Omari Caro at HKR just off the top of my head. But they've only been going a generation and so it's no surprise that the numbers of young lads coming through have only recently started to increase in number. Had Keiran Dixon not had his awful injury in the England Knights game last year he might now have been snapped up by a Superleague club (and indeed he might have been anyway, we don't know yet).

    There are now lots of amateur clubs to the south of the M62, including on the south coast. Some have been going longer than others, some run teams for all ages while some don't and of course they are having mixed results as with all amateur clubs. A sizeable number of schools from outside the 'heartlands' now compete in the national schools competition, and regularly within their own local leagues, including more than one London league, and the sport is played in colleges and universities throughout the country. Then there is the forces rugby league. The paras and marines are having a match in a town in the south of England next weekend. I've forgotten the name of the town but it's being played in Hyde Park there. There is real momentum for the sport now down south and while the furthest up the league ladder it will be represented next season will be Championship, there is no denying that expansion is happening, it's widespread and, hopefully, it's here to stay.

    Many fans in the north do confuse the failure of David Hughes to run his club properly with rugby league in the south per se. The former has been undermined by a man who though an enthusiast and willing to spend money seems incapable of making the right decisions where the Broncos are concerned (although in terms of their nomadic lifestyle that was already underway prior to his arrival of course). The latter is doing very well and hopefully won't be undermined by the demise of London Broncos (albeit, hopefully, a temporary demise).

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    Quote Originally Posted by geordie_saint View Post
    I think we are more or less in agreement but I put to you that there as many idiots who mortgage a great deal on propping up other clubs along the M62 when they are fundamentally not fit for purpose hence my comments about Bradford and Wakefield. We are actually failing on an even greater scale where the game is strongest despite throwing the vast majority of received monies at these clubs. That is why I get annoyed with people's reactions to the demise of the Broncos as it is happening at the traditional clubs despite having the infrastructure already in place.

    Therefore I think your comment about the strategic failure on behalf of the RFL to develop the game across the board is spot on and why I fundamentally disagree with the direction Wood et al and many of the SL Chairmen are now taking us. Retrenchment is NOT going to bring developments in the game which is going to retain its superstars and grow the game both commercially and exposure. The world has changed and we aren't changing with it.
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    A few more than that have come through. Sarginson and Clubb at Wigan for example; Omari Caro at HKR just off the top of my head. But they've only been going a generation and so it's no surprise that the numbers of young lads coming through have only recently started to increase in number. Had Keiran Dixon not had his awful injury in the England Knights game last year he might now have been snapped up by a Superleague club (and indeed he might have been anyway, we don't know yet).

    There are now lots of amateur clubs to the south of the M62, including on the south coast. Some have been going longer than others, some run teams for all ages while some don't and of course they are having mixed results as with all amateur clubs. A sizeable number of schools from outside the 'heartlands' now compete in the national schools competition, and regularly within their own local leagues, including more than one London league, and the sport is played in colleges and universities throughout the country. Then there is the forces rugby league. The paras and marines are having a match in a town in the south of England next weekend. I've forgotten the name of the town but it's being played in Hyde Park there. There is real momentum for the sport now down south and while the furthest up the league ladder it will be represented next season will be Championship, there is no denying that expansion is happening, it's widespread and, hopefully, it's here to stay.
    RL in the Midlands is thriving with the likes of Telford in the amateur ranks and then Coventry Bears moving into the Champs next year, moving it outwards from the heartlands will work. We should now be looking into building at grass roots and expanding in Northern Spain maybe over the next ten years, who knows, if the Spaniards take to it, along with a decent Spanish national side getting better, we may have a SL team in Spain in a decade?

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    Learning All The Songs MancSaint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    The paras and marines are having a match in a town in the south of England next weekend. I've forgotten the name of the town but it's being played in Hyde Park there.
    At Taunton Titans home ground this year.

    Played for the Trafalgar Cup, and believe me it's a very aggressive encounter.

    No admission charge, military and civilian welcome.

    If anybody's about down there it's well worth going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    And our competition is less healthy without 4 blokes watching London?

    Union has as many problems as we have, their league competition is basically two or three well run & well supported clubs and others funded by sugar daddies. What union does well is make people like you believe the myth that the game is booming.

    League needs to get it's grass roots on order before prostituting itself in areas where there is no interest until our game, if we have packed stadia then we can look at expansion
    I was referring to the London area in general, not just the current position of the Broncos, that's an easy target to take down!

    I believe this is a problem in itself, just to focus on heartland areas.

    I believe that the best way to improve the game is to take it to new areas. Ok, it's not worked out the way I would have liked from a SL perspective, but that shouldn't mean we should stop trying. I am a strong supporter of the International game, that's where you capture the initial interest of the kids and the wider audience. In order to have a successful International structure we need to attract more people to the game from all areas possible. To do this we need teams in as many regions of the country as possible. We are getting there with the likes of Hemel, South Wales, Skolars, Gloucester, Oxford, Coventry, Gateshead etc. in Championship 1 and we need as much support as possible to carry this on and eventually see these teams challenging for promotion and even into SL eventually with thje right support and backing.

    maybe I'm a dreamer, but I see our game as so much more exciting than any other and if its marketed correctly, it could be the envy of any other!

  23. #73
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    Crowds in the 70's and 80's would be down. A working man, Northern sport struggling in a recession.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WindsorSaint View Post
    I was referring to the London area in general, not just the current position of the Broncos, that's an easy target to take down!

    I believe this is a problem in itself, just to focus on heartland areas.

    I believe that the best way to improve the game is to take it to new areas. Ok, it's not worked out the way I would have liked from a SL perspective, but that shouldn't mean we should stop trying. I am a strong supporter of the International game, that's where you capture the initial interest of the kids and the wider audience. In order to have a successful International structure we need to attract more people to the game from all areas possible. To do this we need teams in as many regions of the country as possible. We are getting there with the likes of Hemel, South Wales, Skolars, Gloucester, Oxford, Coventry, Gateshead etc. in Championship 1 and we need as much support as possible to carry this on and eventually see these teams challenging for promotion and even into SL eventually with thje right support and backing.

    maybe I'm a dreamer, but I see our game as so much more exciting than any other and if its marketed correctly, it could be the envy of any other!
    I haven't said don't look to expand the game, I've said do it in the right way at the right time. What the RFL tried was neither

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